patrick.net

RayAmerica says

The Swedes also have a sound currency and make an honest attempt to pay as they go. Can the same be said for the USA?

We were doing pretty good until 2001, when the looters and the skimmers took over.

Well, the skimmers began taking over ca 1995, but you get the point.

Vicente says

“The John Birch Society is an American radical right-wing political advocacy group that supports anti-communism, limited government, a Constitutional Republic and personal freedom.”

Be specific ... what exactly is it that you take exception with the above.

Vicente says

radical right-wing political

Vicente says

that supports anti-communism, limited government, a Constitutional Republic and personal freedom

I never realized you'll be considered "radical" if you support "anti-communism, limited government, a Constitutional Republic and personal freedom." The fact that world communism has the blood of up to 100 million innocent victims on its collective hands ... well ... opposing that is RADICAL! If that's radical, what's that say about all those lefties that supported the good old Soviet Union and worshipped (and continue to do so) at the altar of Mao (history's worst mass murderer)?

Troy says

We were doing pretty good until 2001, when the looters and the skimmers took over.

Refresh my memory; what year was it that Clinton signed NAFTA? And what year was it that Clinton, et all pushed through the repeal of Glass-Steagall? I'm only guessing, of course, but didn't all that happen before 2001?

NAFTA ... I hate(d) NAFTA. Alot

I voted for Perot.

Conservative values sure do keep on keeping on.

RayAmerica says

I never realized you’ll be considered “radical” if you support “anti-communism, limited government, a Constitutional Republic and personal freedom.” The fact that world communism has the blood of up to 100 million innocent victims on its collective hands … well … opposing that is RADICAL! If that’s radical, what’s that say about all those lefties that supported the good old Soviet Union and worshipped (and continue to do so) at the altar of Mao (history’s worst mass murderer)?

...all of which has nothing to do with economic policy. Wasn't that what this post was about, sort of, at one time?

"radical" is nothing that you personally support. Just like when you're driving, all the people going slower than you are stupid and all those going faster are assholes.

and you spelled worshiped incorrectly.

I think all the financial problems that so many of our states, local governments and federal government are experiencing is directly linked to the social/welfare costs that have bankrupted our entire nation. Now we have to cut, cut and cut in order to get the country back to fiscal sanity. Too many people (and Michael Moore is one) think there is no end to the money tree, and all we have to do is TAX the right people. It isn't going to work folks. We are running out of money .... exactly what happens eventually when governments buy their power via handouts while using other people's money to do so.

http://www.bergonia.org/Gov/socialism.htm

RayAmerica says

I never realized you’ll be considered “radical” if you support “anti-communism, limited government, a Constitutional Republic and personal freedom.”

The endpoint of it all is the Sovereign Citizens movement. Which says it's OK to reject most laws & taxation as unjust, and leads them to thinking kidnapping government agents is A-OK. Here's a few of your "fellow travelers" Ray:

Five people in the Fairbanks area were arrested Thursday by state and federal law enforcement on charges connected with an alleged plot to kidnap or kill state troopers and a Fairbanks judge, according to the Alaska State Troopers. ...... Fairbanks Police Chief Loren Zager said the operation involved multiple police actions related to Fairbanks-area members of the "sovereign citizen" movement.

http://www.adn.com/2011/03/10/1748613/man-who-threatened-judge.html

Vicente says

Which says it’s OK to reject most laws & taxation as unjust, and leads them to thinking kidnapping government agents is A-OK. Here’s a few of your “fellow travelers” Ray:

I don't have a clue what you are referring to when you say "fellow travelers." I don't now, and never have, advocated violence in any way, shape or form (unless of course someone is attempting to enter my peaceful abode with ill intentions at 3:00 AM ... then they'll be introduced to Mr. Ruger). It's a real stretch to attempt to associate an anti big government type like me with the nutcases that you cite in your post.

Nomograph says

It’s a real stretch for someone who spent his life working for the government, collects government entitlements, and is on government welfare, to call himself an “anti big government type.”

Whom exactly did you have in mind? It can't be me. I spent very little time working for local government in an administrative capacity as a supervisor (about 2 years) in a relatively small department, just enough time to learn firsthand how incredibly corrupt, wasteful and inept government is. As far as "collecting government entitlements," I have never collected any type of unemployment or government subsidy. In fact, years ago, I once qualified for unemployment, and (believe it or not), I turned it down.

Nomograph says

(a) You spent “very little time working”, which doesn’t surprise me. I’m sure you are a very lazy and selfish man.
(b) As the supervisor, you led a corrupt, wasteful and inept department.

Guilty as charged your honor.

Nomograph says

Now all you have is your government entitlements and AM talk radio that tells you that nothing is your fault; you are a victim.

Do you have any suggestions as to where I might get cheap batteries for my radio?

Nomograph says

Walmart, where you do all your other shopping.

Great idea! And I get to visit my wife. She loves her job as a greeter. I always told her many, many times, and you can aks her, that smile and winning personality is going to take her far. Would you happen to know what isle the batteries are in?

Socialism is very difficult to implement well, I have not seen it done anywhere yet where it was successful. Frankly I do not see how it can work unless we change human nature.

1) Usually it involves central planning. And that in itself is an obvious problem. When government pushes a single idea and it isn't the best (as it usually isn't) overtime it fails. When free market capitalism tries tons of different ideas the good ideas work out and the bad once fail.... without destroying everyone else in the process with it. Housing bubble, hate to say it, was a failure of our government sponsoring it through FN/FR and backing gambling with taxpayer dollars. Big oops for socialism there.

2) It takes away a lot of freedom and drive to succeed. Under socialism everyone works under the same system, if you want to try something different you cannot. And certain percentage of the population will find ways to abuse social programs so they don't have to work. You can see a lot of that in Los Angeles area. Just check Reseda, Canoga Park, Tarzana, etc...

3) At the end it turns into a societal structure where those who run the government end up owning everyone else and becomes corrupt. Soviet Union, a system that started for the people, ended up completely corrupt and dictatorial. And as long as central government can be strong (and it does in socialism) this will always occur. End result is that the people at the top get all the perks, while everyone in the middle has to work and struggle their way through life to pay for it all.

ChrisLA says

I have not seen it done anywhere yet where it was successful

Define your terms. Norway has the highest per-capita GDP, the highest happiness, and the lowest credit default swaps of anyone.

Looks successful to me.

Housing bubble, hate to say it, was a failure of our government sponsoring it through FN/FR and backing gambling with taxpayer dollars. Big oops for socialism there.

Utter bullshit, a prime zombie lie from the right. Fannie and Freddie didn't cause homes to zoom up to $700,000 in Hollister. That was the free market enterprise working its magic of pump & dump and taking advantage of the crimogenic conditions caused by the abandonment of the market to its own devices by the regulatory-captured administration, 2002-2006.

"Taxpayer dollars" didn't fund this debt bubble:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CMDEBT

much of that is pure private debt, especially during the 2003-1H05 time period where the system went out of control.

Under socialism everyone works under the same system, if you want to try something different you cannot.

well fuck why are we having this argument. Norway, Sweden, Germany, Denmark, Finland, France, Canada do not operate like this yet their economies are quite socialized in comparison to ours.

Maybe if we started referring to Norway as a "mixed" economy we could lose our fear of the red menace?

End result is that the people at the top get all the perks, while everyone in the middle has to work and struggle their way through life to pay for it all.

A people get the government they deserve.

Troy just to discuss FN/FR.

The way it was described by Warren Buffet. As long as government provided guaranteed backing of the mortgages those who were selling them didn't actually care if loans would be paid. It literally was a huge failure of our government policy. 30 year loans first increased prices to 30 year requirements, and with lax standards and fully tax backing made fraud very easy. Central government made a terrible decision and tried to keep it going, which did not work out.

As far as other countries you listed that are more socialist. They are more socialist than US, but they are not full blown socialism. I really do not know how life style is in there, not sure if grass is greener on that side. For example China (great example of socialism) tried full blown socialism and had it's citizens starve under Mao, but when they added a mix of capitalism into it their GDP went up a lot. They are competing with US now.

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not advocating no socialistic policies at all, some level is often helpful. But full blown socialism... as a society I just do not see it work out, not until human nature changes.

Nomograph says

Based on the rest of your post, it’s clear that you don’t even know what Socialism is. You should find out.

Your accusation is baseless. You are just trying to be trolling/insulting, like taputus twin.

ChrisLA says

Socialism....blah blah... End result is that the people at the top get all the perks, while everyone in the middle has to work and struggle their way through life to pay for it all.

Wow substitute socialism there for USA and I get the same results.

Seems like all the middle classers I know are slaves as surely as your description of "socialism". Paying that mortgage, paying that car, paying that insurance. The bankers and parasites get rich, and at the end of it the middle class ends up panicking near retirement. Realizing they've died the death of a thousand cuts due to interest collected over the years and middleman fees, and what have they got to show for it? Heartburn that they may spend their golden years clipping coupons and having to choose between meds or food. Whatever you want to call the American system now, I like plutocracy. There is actually very little real mobility and 99% of those born into "lower classes" will end their lives there. The system here is finely attuned to make sure the cattle stay in the plow and in debt until they are flat worn out. I wouldn't call it capitalism definitely, there's far too much control by the established players to say it's a purely free market.

ChrisLA says

As long as government provided guaranteed backing of the mortgages those who were selling them didn’t actually care if loans would be paid.

that was part of the problem that provided transaction volume at the low-end but didn't cause prices to exceed *the ability of borrowers to pay*.

And government-backed loans were limited to the conforming limit and had other restrictions that the Alt-A and non-conforming market eliminated when the industry went wild 2002-2006.

Also Fannie and Freddie were somewhat limited during the 2002-2004 period and were losing market share to the private label securitizers, who were engineering their loans to stay out of default just long enough to avoid having to take them back.

Also, allowing HELOCs and cash-out refis to feed back into mortgage payments was a big part of the bubble.

Texas was much stricter about HELOCs and did not have the bubble blow up that the wild-west states did.

The GSEs were NOT the problem 2002-2005.

Troy says

Also Fannie and Freddie were somewhat limited during the 2002-2004 period and were losing market share to the private label securitizers,

Yes, it was the private label lenders, and the investment banks the securitized the loans that were the heart of the problem. It's really frustrating that millions of people like ChrisLA keep repeating the same lie over and over and over and over.

It all started back in the mid 90's, and none of these loans that are in this graph had anything to do with the government.

Note the scale of the right hand portion is different than the left hand portion.

Issuance volume isn't the problem per se, either. It'd be great if everyone could have bought a house in 2004-2005.

The real problem was simply the suicide lending, the loans that were poorly underwritten and essentially engineered to blow up in 2 to 5 years if the market reversed.

The GSEs do share some of the blame here since outfits like Countrywide were packing billions of dollars of shitty loans, giving the GSEs the 80% piece and syndicating the 20% mezzanine paper.

The GSE's automatic underwriting systems were also being gamed, as brokers were free to enter and re-enter numbers into the computer until they got the loan approved.

GSEs were certainly part of the problem but the main problem was the private market going utterly lawless in 2002-2005. This was similar to the S&L days, and due to the same lack of government law enforcement and regulatory oversight.

The people behind this market failure are trying very hard to obfuscate their culpability. They will probably succeed because we are a very stupid people.

Nomograph says

ChrisLA says

Your accusation is baseless.

You clearly don’t know what Socialism is.
(HINT: There is no private enterprise under Socialism. NO private banks, NO mortgage brokers, NO RE agents, NO 7-11’s, NO WalMarts, etc.)
Why not find out what Socialism is, then come back and have this discussion?

I never said there is private enterprise under socialism. In fact I pointed out the problem with centralized system.

Vicente says

...The bankers and parasites get rich, and at the end of it the middle class ends up panicking near retirement. Realizing they’ve died the death of a thousand cuts due to interest collected over the years and middleman fees, and what have they got to show for it?...

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. As (I think Troy pointed out) people get the government they deserve. This nation is ruled by greed and corruption. So it is no wonder that government officials are corrupt sell outs who come there just to get rich instead of providing a service to once nation.

I'm often disgusted with our system of pretend free market as I am with pretend socialism in other places. All of these ideas are only as good as people in them. And society as a whole isn't always that good.

Hundreds of thousands march in London to protest cuts in spending. Governments all over the world are running out of money for their social/welfare programs. Where will it all end?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1370053/Biggest-demo-hit-London-Iraq-war-march-400-000-join-anti-cuts-protest.html

RayAmerica says

Where will it all end?

It may end when governments stop supporting failure in the banks, when they stop rewarding corporate interests over civic interests, when they stop selling out their own people so that business can make a few more bucks... there's more than enough resources to go around if the wealthy would stop hoarding it and parcelling it out to others so that they can make more money.

Now that I have a daughter I'm more and more beginning to realize that her life is not a plaything for someone else's profit margin.

And at this point I think the worst thing about Socialism is this thread.

kentm says

there’s more than enough resources to go around if the wealthy would stop hoarding it and parcelling it out to others so that they can make more money.

Do you know of any people that have less money than you? Do you have a savings account .... stock investments, etc.? If you do, you are "hoarding" as well. It's time for you to stop hoarding and start "parcelling it out to others" so the less fortunate than you "can make more money."

RayAmerica says

Do you have a savings account …. stock investments, etc.? If you do, you are “hoarding” as well. It’s time for you to stop hoarding and start “parcelling it out to others” so the less fortunate than you “can make more money.”

Good point. That's exactly like when the part of ones income that is above 250K gets taxed at 39% instead of 35%.

America can look to England for an illustration of what our future will look like. Is this really what we want?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-12964360

Problem with socialism is a tunnel visioned government that rams down it's ideals disregarding how it will impact everyone (since they have no way of knowing it). And defending it politically for the next 10-50 years, even if it's failing, under pretense of helping the poor while they skim millions for themselves.

Chris .... you are 100% correct. I'd add one thing; socialist programs also buy huge blocks of votes, the very thing many of our founding fathers warned us against.

RayAmerica says

Chris …. you are 100% correct. I’d add one thing; socialist programs also buy huge blocks of votes, the very thing many of our founding fathers warned us against.

Socialist programs like for example the military, which with it's generous pension and medical policies, is a communist wet dream. Not to mention the military industrial complex which is thoroughly embedded in every state thus buying the votes of every state. Yes our Founding Fathers warned us of the dangers of a standing army, yet it's startling how many self-style "Patriots" are firmly in favor of sacrificing ALL other programs so we can keep military bases across the planet.

Vicente says

yet it’s startling how many self-style “Patriots” are firmly in favor of sacrificing ALL other programs so we can keep military bases across the planet.

You can't be thinking about me as one of your "Patriots." I favor bringing home ALL the troops in Europe, Korea, Japan, etc. and ending our involvement in the Middle East. Your Chief "Patriot" has dramatically expanded the war in Afghanistan and is seeking more war in Libya. I wonder if you took part in the standing ovation when the fraud won his Peace Prize?

RayAmerica says

I wonder if you took part in the standing ovation when the fraud won his Peace Prize?

Wasn't invited.

Vicente says

Socialist programs like for example the military, which with it’s generous pension and medical policies, is a communist wet dream. Not to mention the military industrial complex which is thoroughly embedded in every state thus buying the votes of every state. Yes our Founding Fathers warned us of the dangers of a standing army, yet it’s startling how many self-style “Patriots” are firmly in favor of sacrificing ALL other programs so we can keep military bases across the planet.

I am in agreement on this one, I don't like that we have a standing army over-expanded around the world to protect random corporate interest at the cost to our own liberty. I'm very much with founding fathers on the idea that we should commerce with all yet ally with none.