patrick.net

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

Your grandchildren will know how to hunt with their bare hands, however.

see there ... found somethning positive in the grim outlook ahead. Addaboy. I agree with your vision, incase you wondered.

I just had to register to hop in on this discussion. Long time lurker though...

I'm hailing from the DC / MD / VA area, and we have our own housing issue. Well this area has LOTS of issues, but we can start with housing. Houses are ... similar to anything else that's bought and sold. Pricing is determined by supply, demand, and emotions. This area is odd... you have a steady job market, an influx of college educated youngsters, and a relatively stable core of "older people". The problem though... the younger college-educated folk don't make enough to support a house. Even if you stack 3-4 of them together and they all go in together on one ( a HORRIBLE idea unless you're married, by the way), it's still a tough battle. Opposed to this population are the "lived here for years" folks who have seen their housing values increase 5-6 times over the years. They don't see any issues with the housing situation and hold steady to their bubble prices.

And so this area sees a good bit of deadlock. Both sides are rather stubborn and up against fairly solid walls. More and more college grads stack into the area, landing 55-60k per year jobs, but what's that do against a 450k rowhouse in DC or a 300k "starter" house in PG county?

As for me, I sit on the sidelines counting my hours til I can leave this hellhole we call DC. In the 6 years I've been here, I've managed to save upwards of 650k by renting the entire time with one of my good friends. I guess a 195k / year salary doesn't hurt either huh? We all make concessions and trade-offs, I'm trading a few years of my youth and enjoyment for financial security later on.

For housing prices, my views are so skewed now it's not even funny. My economic training screams that prices simply have to fall here, since the median AND mean house is 4-5x the median and mean household income. However, prices have come down an impressive 9% since peak and are headed back up.

As a side note, what do you guys see happening. I know for a fact that the gov't spending can't continue as it has been with no respective increase in tax receipts. I say this fully knowing that a cut in spending would impact my job in a hurry. Will our great leaders inflate us out of this mess through increasing the money supply (seems to be the trend in this country), or will our great leaders impose austerity requirements on us (the "Greek" method)? What do you kind folks see?

whats the "TI" stand for in a FHA loan?

You are missing something. You are not comparing apples to apples as the up-front premium is going down substantially (from 2.25% to 1%). The up-front premium is typically added to the loan amount so the loan would no longer be $200,000, it would be $197,455. At 4.5% annual interest this lowers the payment to $996.74, just over $16/mo less than in your example. So instead of a 9% increase there will be an 8% one.

Also, if you put 5% or more down then the monthly premium is .85% and it is .9% for 3-5% down. It is 0.5% now.

I'm not saying your point is incorrect, just that your numbers are off.

Austinhousingbubble says

What a lugubrious pit to throw your money into…
Sure you’ll make it to 70?

Luckily for me it's the renters money. I haven't thrown any of my money in for a long time and have taken it back out anway. The renters don't seem all that lugubrious either come to think of it. They need to live somewhere so they are actually pretty happy to have well maintained houses in good area's.

I'm 54 with no health problems, take no medications and have no bad family history. I spend 1-2 hours every day windsurfing, surfing, or playing squash. Barring a black swan event the odds are pretty good to make 70. Thanks for your concern.

StillLooking says

There are no listings in the Chicago area where the asking price would leave anyone a profit if they tried to rent out the place. Your claim that housing is not overpriced clearly implies a major disconnect between asking and buying prices

You said that in another thread, but after I repeatedly asked you for any examples you dodged me every time. I'm not in the landlord business, but I did a quick search and it looked to me like there were several properties that would rent out OK in the suburbs.

tatupu70 says

StillLooking says

There are no listings in the Chicago area where the asking price would leave anyone a profit if they tried to rent out the place. Your claim that housing is not overpriced clearly implies a major disconnect between asking and buying prices

You said that in another thread, but after I repeatedly asked you for any examples you dodged me every time. I’m not in the landlord business, but I did a quick search and it looked to me like there were several properties that would rent out OK in the suburbs.

Show me one.

I'm still waiting for the slew of properties you know about...

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2681-Sheridan-Rd-Evanston-IL-60201/3377662_zpid/

Really?--this looks pretty comparable

http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/reb/1955221659.html

robertoaribas says

Realtycheck:
The upfront MIP can be added to the loan balance, and hence has almost NO effect on the monthly payment, which the increase in monthly MIP is directly added to the payment. Do your own math, if someone is approved for a monthly payment of $1200 a month based on their DTI ratios, you can clearly see that the price home they can buy will come down, something above 4%.
Now, take the entire world of FHA buyers, which in many price points is almost all of them, and reduce their top price by even 4%, and it very will may have an effect. Especially in a market that is already reeling.

Hey man, I get that there are some places that are way expensive to live, but Tempe, AZ ain't one of them. Why don't you move out of the Apartment already. Hell, house in Tempe are practically given away as Cracker Jack prizes.

tatupu70 says

Really?–this looks pretty comparable
http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/reb/1955221659.html

This is a different neighborhood where asking prices are much more optimistic. And I don't believe this one would fetch that. THere are too many three bedrooms looking for rent under $2000.00

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/9715-Woods-Dr-UNIT-605-Skokie-IL-60077/87702496_zpid/

These are renting for $1700/month

The asking price is in the 350 grand area.

I don plan on selling, until the next bubbl

You better live a long time.

Whoah, no doom intended. Quite the contrary; I merely find the idea of another real estate bubble in our lifetimes highly unlikely. I see that as a good thing, as I find bubble economies to be ultimately counterproductive.

Austinhousingbubble says

I don plan on selling, until the next bubbl

You better live a long time.

Patrick, dude, this exchange MUST have a spot on the T-shirt.

I went to school grades 4-12 in La Canada and as you stated, the schools are fantastic. Although the school district is top notch, you are going to be paying at least a 200-300k premium over Glendale, Burbank or any of the other surrounding bedroom communities. Unless you have a bunch of kids going to private school, or are going to send them K-12, I don't know if your math applies, Mark_LA.

Don't get me wrong: I would love to give my kids the education that I was provided by my folks... I just don't think I can pull in $400k a year like they did for the privilege of living in LC.

All,

Any insight on the Denver, Colorado area market situation? Specifically interested in Highlands Ranch in Douglas County?

Any data on rents vs. price (per this thread) would also be really useful.

Thanks in advance!

E-man says

bob2356 says

Taxes are not that high. Don’t have any problems with insurance despite being 20 miles from the Gulf.

Congrats. I guess that would be somewhere close to Pasadena or Houston. May I ask what % is your property tax? And how much does it cost to insure these rentals in term of percentage? 0.2 or 0.4% of the cost of the home? Thanks.
I was looking at Dallas/Forthworth areas, and property tax was around 3%. I believe there are certain exempt areas where the property tax is really low.
Edit: I would probably fared okay if I bought back then, but I’d rather invest where I live. It’s just more comforting since I’m a pretty conservative investor. Based on history, CA has outperformed many other markets in appreciation over the long-term. With that said, getting 7% to 8% cash on cash return with the probability of appreciation over the long-term is much more appealing to me. I have a friend (http://tomwilsonproperties.com/) that has been investing in DFW areas and have done exceptional well. He’s been trying to sell me some of his properties just for diversification purposes. Well, different strokes for different folks. How’s New Zealand? Are you planning on retire there or coming back to the U.S.? :o)

Actually my properties are in the Rio Grande valley. Last insurance I paid was 938 on the place in Harlingen, but I have wind. Without wind it would be 385. Taxes 1800. My guestimate on value on that property (I'm currently looking at similar properties in the area to buy) 175-200k.

New Zealand is terrific. Greatest place on earth to raise kids. Very high cost of living vs wages, so we live a pretty simple lifestyle. Picnic and hike instead of eating lunch out, that kind of thing. If I get my Italian citizenship (actually if my wife gets hers then I get mine) we're retiring to either Lake Garda Italy or Biarritz France. I would live in the states again, but there's so much out there to explore and life is so short. I'm really considering Dubai/Oman for a while when the kids hit high school (partially because of the huge teenage binge drinking problem in NZ, definitely NOT a problem in Oman). There are great water sports, it's a one hour flight from terrific dirt cheap skiing in Iran (that would be on my kiwi passport not my american one), and a couple hours flying to southern Europe. Learning Arabic would be challenging, although probably no worse than learning to speak kiwi. I've really had a lot of fun living around the world so far.

bob2356 says

Actually my properties are in the Rio Grande valley. Last insurance I paid was 938 on the place in Harlingen, but I have wind. Without wind it would be 385. Taxes 1800. My guestimate on value on that property (I’m currently looking at similar properties in the area to buy) 175-200k.
New Zealand is terrific. Greatest place on earth to raise kids. Very high cost of living vs wages, so we live a pretty simple lifestyle. Picnic and hike instead of eating lunch out, that kind of thing. If I get my Italian citizenship (actually if my wife gets hers then I get mine) we’re retiring to either Lake Garda Italy or Biarritz France. I would live in the states again, but there’s so much out there to explore and life is so short. I’m really considering Dubai/Oman for a while when the kids hit high school (partially because of the huge teenage binge drinking problem in NZ, definitely NOT a problem in Oman). There are great water sports, it’s a one hour flight from terrific dirt cheap skiing in Iran (that would be on my kiwi passport not my american one), and a couple hours flying to southern Europe. Learning Arabic would be challenging, although probably no worse than learning to speak kiwi. I’ve really had a lot of fun living around the world so far.

Nice hearing someone else with goals other than to buy a house on this forum.

My wife and I have a different, but similar dream... we're thinking of doing two more years here in Monterey, CA - then buying a nice yacht. We'd like to see the pacific coast, south America, cruise through the panama canal, sail over to the cayman islands for a year or so, go up the east coast, and see where life goes from then. We've even thought about alaska or Hawaii (transpac)

Some may think it's a little over the top, but it would be one heck of an experience. We have two small children who we'd homeschool a year or two of school and then maybe settle back east...

Either way, life is short... there is more to life than real estate....

^ http://www.amazon.com/Sell-Up-Sail-Bill-Cooper/dp/1574092197

Troy says

^ http://www.amazon.com/Sell-Up-Sail-Bill-Cooper/dp/1574092197

Yeah, pretty much... I've gotten tired of the corporate world, tired of the eight to five job.... Money is great, have a great position, cash in the bank - we could pay cash for a small place in most of the country... But the thought of buying a place and essentially calling it quits seems like such a drain on life.. As in, i now have a house which means im stuck... No moving.. This is it.

Wifey and i looked at boats today with the kiddos and had a nice time. I know they a maintenance pigs, but they can take you around the world and back and let you experience more than if you live in a subdivision. It's a risk, but buy a big ol sailboat, plan the trip and save up enough cash for a few years and enjoy life. It's easy to get caught up in 401k plans, insurance, houses etc..... But i have sorta had enough and just want to live. Not strap myself to a gzillion year mortgage and car payments. On the flip side, i want to be a responsible husband and father, but im not even 30 and have plenty of time to buy "stuff" such as a house, or items "required" by society so that you have a "happy/successful" life.

Home schooling is very cool. I'd do it if I had kids. Home schoolers in the bay area get together for the socialization side of things.

I'm fascinated by boats in that they substantially break free from the historical land title regime BS. The ocean is still free land, in the economic sense.

Maintenance is the one thing that scares me, as does not being a sailor and not understanding the performance envelope of sailing craft.

If I had my way I'd like to see a hydrogen-solar power plant w/ battery backup. Boats need to carry ballast so a ton or two of batteries isn't a big deal for them.

Maritime piracy is also an issue I guess. With all these considerations I think finding a doomstead up in the mountains somewhere is a better idea. This one:

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/19425-Tollhouse-Rd-Clovis-CA-93619/18642958_zpid/

is waay too close to a main highway but otherwise very nice.

Josh -- I think you've got the right idea...

"To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen, who play with their boats at sea - "cruising," it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about.”

Sterling Hayden

joshuatrio says

Nice hearing someone else with goals other than to buy a house on this forum.

My wife and I have a different, but similar dream… we’re thinking of doing two more years here in Monterey, CA - then buying a nice yacht. We’d like to see the pacific coast, south America, cruise through the panama canal, sail over to the cayman islands for a year or so, go up the east coast, and see where life goes from then. We’ve even thought about alaska or Hawaii (transpac)

Some may think it’s a little over the top, but it would be one heck of an experience. We have two small children who we’d homeschool a year or two of school and then maybe settle back east…

Either way, life is short… there is more to life than real estate….

Go for it. I met a great British couple doing a 5 year sail around the world on a 43 footer with their 2 children age 8 and 10 who ducked in here for a couple days to avoid some really bad weather. We had them over for dinner and it sounded like a real adventure, some good, some bad. They were home schooling on board with the aid of marine radio and satellite internet. They had a web page of the trip but I have mislaid it. Too bad. They spent the first year in the Med to build up experience.

Troy says

Home schooling is very cool. I’d do it if I had kids. Home schoolers in the bay area get together for the socialization side of things.
I’m fascinated by boats in that they substantially break free from the historical land title regime BS. The ocean is still free land, in the economic sense.
Maintenance is the one thing that scares me, as does not being a sailor and not understanding the performance envelope of sailing craft.
If I had my way I’d like to see a hydrogen-solar power plant w/ battery backup. Boats need to carry ballast so a ton or two of batteries isn’t a big deal for them.
Maritime piracy is also an issue I guess. With all these considerations I think finding a doomstead up in the mountains somewhere is a better idea. This one:
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/19425-Tollhouse-Rd-Clovis-CA-93619/18642958_zpid/
is waay too close to a main highway but otherwise very nice.

From my understanding, maintenance isn't to bad. If you buy a decent boat, in good condition, most sailors have told me that you can live pretty comfortably on a nice sized boat for around $1,000/mo (maintenance, food, utilities etc...). I'm not sure if they were including a boat payment or not - but we won't be financing.

Maritime piracy does exist, but it's primarily around Africa (which we have no desire to visit) - and what we have in N/S. America isn't enough of a deterrent to keep us from going - you take risks getting in your car every day don't you? Get the latest flu vaccination? Lol - just saying, there are tons of things we can worry about if we want to....

I've lately been annoyed by all the taxes we have... So I also figure that if I don't work and don't own land, I can avoid most of the big ones. Granted, I'm sure there are taxes/fees with registering/maintaining a vessel, but it's probably a lot less.... Maybe someone can chime in on this, as I haven't done a lot of research on this. Shoot, maybe we'll even permanently end up in some other country (who knows?)

I like the doomstead idea - or a large plot of land - but I really don't want to be a tin foiler. Plus, living in the middle of nowhere would get boring after a while - especially for the kiddos. Who knows if we'll have hyper inflation, massive deflation, if gold will go to the moon, if we'll have another major war etc... That's part of the other thing, sitting at a desk, or working a typical 8-5 job, you have time to think about these things - hoping that what you have in the bank doesn't evaporate if the gubbermint hands out another 100 trillion or so. We all get so caught up with buying real estate at the right time, or wondering if rates will go lower - I really don't want to think, worry, or ponder what's going on in our country economically anymore. It just seems like such a waste of life. I figure we'll sail around N/S America for a coupe years, enjoy life, and maybe settle after then. But I'm tired of getting caught up in all the routine garbage.

bob2356 says

Go for it. I met a great British couple doing a 5 year sail around the world on a 43 footer with their 2 children age 8 and 10 who ducked in here for a couple days to avoid some really bad weather. We had them over for dinner and it sounded like a real adventure, some good, some bad. They were home schooling on board with the aid of marine radio and satellite internet. They had a web page of the trip but I have mislaid it. Too bad. They spent the first year in the Med to build up experience.

We start sailing lessons in a couple months; will probably purchase something small (assuming we enjoy it), and in about 2 years, get something much larger... probably in the 42 foot range.

We'll do most of our sailing in the Monterey/San Francisco Bay, do what we can to prepare, and bail.

Thanks for the encouragement. Makes me feel less crazy. It would be a cool experience, something that most people don't just up and do. I don't want to be on my death bed one day thinking that all I did was go to work every day - from 8 to 5 - count my pennies in the bank, and hope that I can one day comfortably retire and play golf everyday...

The boat I mentioned is the Pagos. Here's an article about them from Ocean Navigator.

http://www.oceannavigator.com/content/sue-and-adrian-payne-have-only-been-voyaging-short-time-they226128153ve-long-considered-safe

They were doing a blog of some kind but I think it as just for family since I don't see it.

Mortgage Interest On Your Motor Home or Boat May Be Tax Deductible

A home is defined by the IRS as “a house, condominium, cooperative, mobile home, house trailer, boat, or similar property that has sleeping, cooking, and toilet facilities.”

This means the interest you pay on a loan to acquire a motor home or boat that meets the criteria above may be tax deductible.

http://moneyover55.about.com/od/taxtips/a/mortgageinterest.htm

Troy says

Mortgage Interest On Your Motor Home or Boat May Be Tax Deductible
A home is defined by the IRS as “a house, condominium, cooperative, mobile home, house trailer, boat, or similar property that has sleeping, cooking, and toilet facilities.”
This means the interest you pay on a loan to acquire a motor home or boat that meets the criteria above may be tax deductible.
http://moneyover55.about.com/od/taxtips/a/mortgageinterest.htm

I understand that - but it's still cheaper in the long run to just pay in cash than to carry a mortgage.

Guess you could argue all the variables such as interest rates, inflation etc... but those are all unknowns. To me, it's not worth stressing over. If you can't pay for it upfront, in full, you can't afford it.... either that, or you haven't saved enough.

@Troy

If his plan is to travel around the the Americas, and not necessarily living in the US, it might be cheaper to offshore his money and setup residency in say Costa Rica. At which point you've got around an 80K allowance per year of tax free income.

shrekgrinch - you do realize you could have consolidated all 6 of your posts down to 1 post right?

Where are you taking lessons?
For those of you you who didn't marry as well as the duck, I recommend the Cal Sailing Club. It's a co-op that costs just $75 for 3 months. An easy (and cheap) way to get up to speed before shelling out the cash for 30 foot boats. They have an intensive one week course that allows you to quickly get out on the water without supervision.

there is a very good looking bay-ready vessel for sale in Merced. A cabin cruiser type that is on a 3 axle trailer (tag style I think - not 5th wheel)) and is sized for delta / bay type use. Not a lake boat. I'd say it was a good 20' long, 10' wide and at least 15 feet from bottom to top. A big boat. The window has $14K wrote on it in grease marker. I bet a guy with $12K and a one-ton truck could take it away.
If you want more ifo, just ask. Patrick can email me. If you buy it, a $100 finders fee should be donated to Patrick.Net by you.

EBGuy says

Where are you taking lessons?

For those of you you who didn’t marry as well as the duck, I recommend the Cal Sailing Club. It’s a co-op that costs just $75 for 3 months. An easy (and cheap) way to get up to speed before shelling out the cash for 30 foot boats. They have an intensive one week course that allows you to quickly get out on the water without supervision.

I'll look into that - thanks for the heads up.

Bap33 says

there is a very good looking bay-ready vessel for sale in Merced. A cabin cruiser type that is on a 3 axle trailer (tag style I think - not 5th wheel)) and is sized for delta / bay type use. Not a lake boat. I’d say it was a good 20′ long, 10′ wide and at least 15 feet from bottom to top. A big boat. The window has $14K wrote on it in grease marker. I bet a guy with $12K and a one-ton truck could take it away.

If you want more ifo, just ask. Patrick can email me. If you buy it, a $100 finders fee should be donated to Patrick.Net by you.

It's gotta have sails. I want the gas bill as little as possible.

joshuatrio says

It’s gotta have sails. I want the gas bill as little as possible.

LOL, even as a landlubber I know power-cruising burns 1-2 MPG. Trying to make the 2000+ mile passage to Hawaii is difficult on a cruiser!

This is why I'm waiting for a better power loop.

Plus I want a submersible too, so I can park at a nice anchorage and not be hassled by anyone.

pkennedy says

At which point you’ve got around an 80K allowance per year of tax free income.

Actually it's 91,500 for 2010. Which would bring up the point that if joshuatrio is going to have income while sailing around the America's it would be smart to set up a foreign residency as a base of operations first to be able to take advantage of this.

Troy says

LOL, even as a landlubber I know power-cruising burns 1-2 MPG. Trying to make the 2000+ mile passage to Hawaii is difficult on a cruiser!
This is why I’m waiting for a better power loop.
Plus I want a submersible too, so I can park at a nice anchorage and not be hassled by anyone.

Lol - I don't know about MPG, but I believe it's GPH (gallons per hour) when referring to boats :) I know a decent size cruiser burns around 20-30 + GPH and I may be being conservative... I wonder sometimes how people afford the gas in some of these monsters... Either way, if you plan on sailing and are in no rush, you can avoid most of the fuel bill.

bob2356 says

pkennedy says

At which point you’ve got around an 80K allowance per year of tax free income.

Actually it’s 91,500 for 2010. Which would bring up the point that if joshuatrio is going to have income while sailing around the America’s it would be smart to set up a foreign residency as a base of operations first to be able to take advantage of this.

No, I don't plan on having income when we decide to take our "trip". We'll be living straight off of savings. I may do side/contract work if I really need money, but I really think we'll be ok. We're not rich by any means, but we're probably one of the most conservative couple you'd ever meet - we budget every item, have no debt, my wife coupons galore ... if we don't have the cash, or if it's not in the budget, we don't get it. Period.

Getting off track - sorry - (actually I've hijacked the thread.. lol) ... I don't care about tax shelters, making a lot of cash, nor do I want to worry about investments. I don't have a 401k plan or retirement, my children's college fund is in PM's and the rest is cash. I don't believe in the stock market, or any of those interest earning funds (IRA's, CD's) etc... My parents can't stand that I don't invest like they do - they think I'm foolish (and I may very well be), but almost every member in my family is upside by almost 100k on real estate they bought in the past 2 years. I'm the only renter. lol. I'm also the only member in my family without a car payment :)

If we asked everyone how much money they'd need to be happy, the answer would always be "not enough." If you said a million bucks, and I gave you a million bucks - give it a month or two and that wouldn't seem like a lot anymore.

Not really sure where I'm going with this so i'll stop here :)

Hey guys, hate to resurrect this thread that got way off topic, but I'm new and can't make new threads.

Please see my post here: http://patrick.net/?p=237330

I ask the question: Were 100% of past sales at this brand new condo FHA financed? Can we get a definitive answer? If true, that would be ridiculous and this condo can become a poster-child for all that is wrong with FHA.

E-man says

However, we don’t think on the same frequency when it comes to planning. I believe RE is one of the easiest way to achieve financial indepence. Before I buy anything (such as a sail boat), I would find some investment or someone to pay for it. It’s kind of like someone is paying off the mortgages on my RE investments. Why don’t you find some investment that would pay off your sail boat instead of taking the money from your savings account? Just a suggestion.

Getting there. We don't have it all planned out yet. First things first and that's to see if we like sailing and the lifestyle - financially, we'll be fine.. I'm not totally against RE - I'm just tired of monitoring values for the past several years that a break from it would probably be good. Not looking to make the transition for at least 2 years which allows plenty of time to plan and get it all figured out. We may purchase a couple rentals on the East Coast (where family is) that could potentially pay for the whole trip, or we may not.

E-man says

Just out of curiosity, was there a reason why you chose to invest in Rio Grande valley over the triangle Houston/San Antonio/Dallas?

Because I lived there at the time. I only buy RE in places I've lived and know the area. I only bought property once without living in an area for at least a year. Like getting my dick caught in the zipper, it's something I'll never do again. I've sold my properties in other parts of the country (PA,NY,OR) to concentrate in the RGV because property management wasn't nearly as good in those area's as the RGV. A very big factor if you are going to live 12,000 miles away. At present the rental numbers run nicely and I can get a sub 4% 15 year fixed so I'm looking for a couple more houses in the next year or two. RE laws are also much, much more landlord friendly in Tx than many other places.

I work (sort of, I've scaled back a lot, free time matters more now) over the internet (as in send me specs, I'll send back code), so I could work from mars. Pre internet I used to work all over the country and overseas. My wife now has the job that requires a physical location so we continue to roam the planet. I like it. So few Americans live and work overseas it's shocking. Most of the rest of the world is amazingly mobile. It's really hard to imagine how insular the US is until you try do anything with US businesses or US government institutions using overseas information. Things I could do with no problem using a NZ drivers license in places like New Guinea or Tahiti or Costa Rica are a nightmare to do in New Jersey or Oregon.