patrick.net

Most Muslims are friendly and decent people. I've met and worked with many, traveled in Turkey and Egypt, and got to know a bit about the culture.

I've read the whole Koran. All the Koran quotes above are correct and in context.

"Do not be friends", "Kill the unbelievers", etc, are all unambiguous. Islam was founded in extreme violence, and advocates violence. Mohammed robbed caravans, took women as war prizes, and killed those who opposed him. He approved the murder of a pregnant woman who wrote a poem he didn't like.

Most Muslims are good people in spite of Islam, not because of it. Western culture was equally violent and expansionist, but Jesus did not rob, rape, or kill anyone.

I don't believe any religion is true, but I think Buddhism is at least useful.

- Genocide ( Holocaust, conquests and near total elimination of natives of North and South America)
- Slavery ( no need to mention the nation that exploited it to the hilt)
- Colonialism
-Apartheid ( yes they were South African Arab Muslims oppressing the native black population)
- Racism

I would just point out that slavery was common under the Ottoman empire (the most famous example being the Janissary Guard), and that Arabic peoples in Africa still take slaves, e.g. in the Sudan and elsewhere. This is well documented.

There was also an Armenian genocide by the Turks only last century.

However, I accept that people, first and foremost, are pretty greedy and self-serving, and the examples of genocide, colonialism, racism and slavery above cut across all cultures and their 'religions'.

Buddhism as explained by the Buddha himself is actually a secular philosophy and way of life, not a religion. It has been ritualised and religionised as 'value-adding' by later generations who were not looking for comfort in wisdom but comfort in ritual.

Buddhism is peaceful.... I would like to disagree. It is a meaningless, feel good spiritual hocus-pocus that has no relevance, meaning or benefit to a rational person or humanity a large. Better an agnostic than to be a Buddhist. The Japanese who were Buddhist indulged in some of the most depraved and barbaric behavior that would put even Hitler's hordes to shame. Look at Sri Lanka where a violent conflict between the majority Buddhists and Tamils continues with no end in sight because of discrimination against Tamils.

If the Dalai Lama who hobnobs with Hollywood stars who are utterly deprived of any morality and are horrible examples as role models to the public is regarded as one of the upright leaders today,then there is something wrong with our values or evaluation criteria for assessing leadership today. The Dalai Lama has proven to be a snake, a shameless opportunist who tried to capitalize on the opportunity to blackmail China as it readies to host the Olympics. Besides, it is not only Buddhist Tibet that suffers due to Chinese excesses, the Uighur etnic minority has been subjected to far greater repression but we do not see the Dalai Lama say anything about it. That is why I consider him to be a liar, a hypocrite and unethical person.

Truth is most important irrespective of religious background.

Not just me but 1 billion strong Muslim people worldwide and 70% of the rest of the world including millions of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists and Sikhs have the right and positive idea about Islam and have co-existed for centuries. Western developed countries comprise less than 10% of the world's population. The remaining 90% do not care really about what goes on in the US or Europe as they struggle to make ends meet. The day the US relinquishes military superiority, other countries will prosper and become richer than the US. All this talk about democracy, human rights and freedom is claptrap and selectively applied to further the narrow and selfish interests of the West, who are not above resorting to cheap blackmail as we see in the case of China hosting the Olympics. The most important thing for a country is to have leaders that are decent, morally upright and honest human beings

Killing innocents is not justified in any religion or ciivil society. I do not need to defend Islam. Making vile charges about Islam happens to be a flavor of the day especially for those with prejudiced minds. People are free to write and think what they want about Islam including some people on this thread. This is a free society. But Muslims too have the right to clarify wrong assumptions and speak-up about defending their families and communities from hate mongering. Throwing pebbles at the sun can make the one who throws look stupid.

Again, most Muslims are good people, but that is in spite of Islam, not because of it. It is extremely difficult for them to see the truth about Islam that is so obvious to the rest of the world. Be kind to Muslims. They are fighting a hard battle within themselves.

Islam's founder murdered those who criticized him, and the murderers in Bombay are following the example of Mohammed when they kill unarmed civilians.

There should be no hate, or revenge, or suppression, or anything except loudly speaking the truth about Islam: that Islam was born in extreme violence, and it has always advocated violence to propagate itself at the expense of humanity.

Please copy the "Call to the Muslims of the World" above and distribute it in printed or electronic form. Using freedom of speech is at least one non-violent way to fight the violence of Islam.

Dear Administrator,

A lot of the statements made by you are outright false and the references dubious, to say the least. Just as you would expect realtors to say that "housing always go up", do you talk to a bunch of disgruntled former Muslims to find them say charitable things about Islam ?

You seem to be following for the very same tactics being exhibited forth in FOX news, by the NAR and by the housing cheerleaders! I would suggest you look at a few websites to find each and everyone of the libelous statement made in the links to be utterly and totally disproved. I will not mention any to you. Use google and find them out for yourself.

Muslims are humans and this is a scientific fact. However, this does not make them immune from crime or violent & sinful behavior. A Muslim's test in this life lasts till his last breath.

DP

Hi DP,
every one of the quotes at http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/call_to_muslims.htm can be verified by you or anyone else with any copy of the koran. No one is making this stuff up.

The killing of entire Jewish tribes, selling people into slavery, robbing caravans, and sleeping with an 11 year old girl should be called murder, slavery, theft, and at a minimum statutory rape. The murders of Abu Afak and Asma Bint Marwan for writing poems that Mohammed didn't like are also not shining examples of tolerance. These violent acts are all part of official Islamic history, are they not?

If Muslims believe it was right and good for Mohammed to do those things, that means Muslims believe that murder, robbery, rape, and violent suppression of criticism are all OK, right?

It Muslims believe it was wrong and bad for Mohammed to do those things, why is Mohammed held up as an example for Muslims to imitate?

It must be extremely hard for Muslims to be honest about Mohammed, because to admit that he was so violent means to turn against tradition, family, and friends, lose a faith, fear loss of eternal salvation, and risk murder by other Muslims like Salman Rushdie did. I sincerely feel great sympathy for anyone who decides to take an honest look at the faith they grew up with, like I did.

We are all human, and I'm not saying non-Muslims are wonderful, but who you follow as an example makes a difference in how you act. Jesus and Buddha killed no one at all. Moses killed a few people. Mohammed killed a lot of people.

Foolish talk and foolish reasoning ! Prejudiced minds will always find fault with others!

A lot of the incidents you have described are hearsay & made up stories from people who HATE Islam, yourself included ! It is like listening to Lawrence Yun or the other paid housing shills !

You have absolutely superficial knowledge not only about Islam but also about Christianity or other religions. Every religion is beautiful. It is only the followers who are good or bad. The Agnostic human is the most dangerous being on earth. The one who sows the seeds of suspicion and hatred in other people's minds while justifying every whim and desire of their own. An atheist atleast subscribes to a set of rules. Agnostics have no principles and you seem to bea perfect example of one!

Here is an open challenge:
You lay down the 10 basic aspects of what Islam requires a person to do and about the goal and purpose in this life. Not your opinions but the gist of how a Muslim should lead his life. That will allow me to tell you clearly where you are wrong.

Reaching puberty is the stage where a boy becomes a man and the girl becomes a woman. Although mental maturity for human beings will continue to develop until they are well into their 20s, from a purely biological aspect puberty signifies that the human body is ready for sexual relations. This is the law of nature and one cannot use a legal law prevalent in one country for judging what is acceptable in more liberal or conservative societies. Talking about the right age of consent for sex is an endless debate. Within the realms of culture at that time and what was acceptable across all religions, it was acceptable for a girl to be considered a woman when the age of puberty was reached and therefore it was acceptable for her to get married. Although it is not common even in Muslim culture for a 50 year old to marry a 9 year old girl who has reached puberty, the Prophet demonstrated that it was not illegal. So that in the most extreme cases if such a marriage was the only way for society to go forth and expand, people should not shun it. The Prophet did not marry scores of 10 year olds and we all know that.

The most important thing is that Muhammad was a prophet no different than Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus to most Muslims except that he was the last messenger. All came with the same message: Worship the one true God and do not associate Him with partners. All the other things you argue about is as irrelevant as questioning if my great-great-grandfather preferred a black coat over a white one.

On the topic of Islamic extremism, I understand that it would absolutely infuriate non-Muslims and rightly so. However, if you analyze the reasons for an extremist's irrational behavior, you will be able to trace some disgruntlement present on some injustice ( perceived in many cases) being meted out to someone somewhere and therefore they want to fight. And usually it is the very human emotions in them that overwhelms any spiritual restraint that triggers off the violent actions. Islam is clear that taking a human life is only permissible in justice and law or war. Now don't start the topic on capital punishment being barbaric. It is a topic that is not specific to Islam.

Evolution is very hard to believe when you look at the perfection on Earth today with regard to the existence of different species of animals and plants. Subscribing to the big Bang theory is like saying that in a junk yard there was a huge explosion that ultimately ended up with the creation of a sparkling brand new car that is functional in all aspects. I can bet you that it will not be close even in one explosion out of a quadrillion trillion ones. Come on, there has to be a better way that science could explain the theory of how we all came into existence.

Robbery is an act that is punishable with amputation of arms in Islam. Enough said....
It is like Patrick being accused of being a paid housing shill.....

I see you have been reading a lot of neo-con websites on the incident concerning a certain Jewish tribe in Madinah at the time of the Prophet.

Remember the story of Saddam having the weapons of mass destruction. I think you are smart enough to take the cue...

You refer to some incidents as though it happened yesterday to your best friend and there were another bunch of folks who could vouch safe for what happened..... Any group of rotten minds could have conjured up something as far back as the Crusades and then propagated that story over the centuries. Don't assume what you are reading is right.

steady market watcher says

Don’t assume what you are reading is right.

Do not to make friendship with Muslims (5:51), kill the Muslims wherever you find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Muslims, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5).

Oh wait, did I say "Muslim"? Actually those are all quotes from the Koran with chapter and verse about how Muslims should treat non-Muslims. I just swapped out Jews, Christian, etc, and put in Muslim instead. So do you mean to say don't assume the Koran is right?

Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan was simply following the teaching of the Koran.

Much more at http://www.faithfreedom.org/ a site which desperately needs to be translated into Arabic.

I am muslim, this is not how I treat non-muslims.

For the believers, it all depends on the people they were before they became a believer and how strong their principles are. We can find many examples of stupidity in the books of religion because they were written by men and not the mystery god that many worship. My people were enslaved for 400 years while the mystery god watched, stood by while we hung from the trees as onlookers wondered what the strange fruit was that was hanging from the trees. Christians shout "The only way to god is through Jesus Christ", which, in a sense disqualifies 3/4 of the world from salvation simply because they were not born into the Christian culture. The same goes for Islam, Buddism, etc. If you go in believing in something with blind faith, then you should expect to be treated as cattle.

I say this only to bring light to the discussion, in fact, to end discussions as if there is a mystery god that sent these individuals to write these scriptures. The Bible, Koran are filled with what should be called allegory but many worship in blind faith.

Look up who Clarence 13X is and you will understand my points.

85% of the people are blind to the knowledge of themselves and God, while 10% of the people know the truth but teach a lie for their personal gain; seen as part of this 10% are the preachers, politicians and government officials that teach that God is an incorporeal being (hence the term "mystery God"). The remaining 5% are the poor righteous teachers—those who do not subscribe to the teachings of the 10%

Bap33 says

steady market watcher says

The most important thing is that Muhammad was a prophet no different than Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus to most Muslims except that he was the last messenger.

lmao …. so full of poop. The baby raper camel herdsman named mohamad was just a drugged up Arab that hated Hebrews for being God’s chosen. Putting him with Arbaham or Moses or Jesus is absurd. But him with Joe Smith, as they both just wated a “me too” religion.

Maybe we should cool all the bashing of each others religions. All of these persons were just men, whom had a following that worshipped them blindly. There is no such thing as a mystery god and all religions are simply cultures for people that worship. All religions can be debunked in some form, but the existence of god cannot because their is no way we can deny our very own existence or put our finger on lifes origins. We 5% teach our people the Original Blackman is God, the Original Blackwoman is the planet Earth, and through the inner esoteric powers of the Gods and Earths, people can transform and possess their true potential.

...but does this mean that we actually believe that Black people have mystical superpowers? No, this is simply allegory used to motivate and help inspire others to uplift their lives and to believe in themselves....something that was needed as we transitioned into society.

These comments were fairly divisive in nature, but I can understand how emotional these topics can get at times.

the term "prophet" was used. It means something. And, God uses prophets. But, prophets of God must be 100% correct or they are false-prophets. Men, yes the prophets mentioned are men ... except Jesus, who was God as a man - not just a man.

mohamad is not 100% correct in prophetic work, and is even doing worse than Nostradomus - percentage wise, so he has been proven to not be a prophet of God.

I follow no religion. I believe in God the father of all. And he demands blood for sin. And he sent his Son Jesus to die for all sins. I believe this based on The Bible's ability to explain the nature of God and it's perfect prophetic work. Knowing there is a God is not religion. Understanding The Bible is not a religion. Kneeling each day and aiming towards a paticular compass direction - as a direct order from clergy- is religous, and silly.

Bap33 says

the term “prophet” was used. It means something. And, God uses prophets. But, prophets of God must be 100% correct or they are false-prophets. Men, yes the prophets mentioned are men … except Jesus, who was God as a man - not just a man.
mohamad is not 100% correct in prophetic work, and is even doing worse than Nostradomus - percentage wise, so he has been proven to not be a prophet of God.
I follow no religion. I believe in God the father of all. And he demands blood for sin. And he sent his Son Jesus to die for all sins. I believe this based on The Bible’s ability to explain the nature of God and it’s perfect prophetic work. Knowing there is a God is not religion. Understanding The Bible is not a religion. Kneeling each day and aiming towards a paticular compass direction - as a direct order from clergy- is religous, and silly.

Right, except Jesus the mystery god who died for everyones sins. Continue worshipping blindly, hopefully you will find what you seek without all the hatred of other religions....as hinted in your responses. Whether we kneel, close our eyes when we pray religion is nothing more than the culture that we identify with and assume for our methods of worship. This brings me back to my point of Christianity claims of supremacy through statements such as "All Things through Christ" and "No man shall enter gods kingdom except through Christ". This would mean that billions of people would be left out of the mystical heaven simply because they were born muslim or hindu...if this mysteryt god you call Jesus doesnt have room for different views then he is as close minded as you are. I will never state that no other prophets existed and are lesser than Mohammed, yet Christians use superiority complexes handed down from the crusades to proclaim Jesus the one and only true prophet, thereby damning the rest of the world to hell. I encourage you to stop denouncing other religions because you will miss out on a lot that other religious cultures have to offer....I am not waiting on Mohammed, Jesus or any other mystery man written about in scriptures to save my soul when I can do what is right now in the world that we live in.

This debate is older than our ages combined, dating back to the crusades when the hatred of other religious cultures began in a struggle over the areas many consider a holy land. Why engage ourselves in that kind of stupidity when Jesus or Mohammed would denounce any kind of violence brought about in a game of religious superiority.

In my old age, I have come to learn that it is quite silly to denounce other religions and proclaim Islam as the only one and true path to enlightenment...Just as silly as proclaiming my 5% beliefs of the black man being the one and only true and living GOD.

The bible and Koran are filled with fables written by men, designed to strike fear in our hearts in attempt to gain a following..obviously it is working. I would encourage you to try and think independently of any teachings of a mystery god as you are being misled by Jesus who was merely a man....no matter how much you proclaim him a god.

He still sat by and watche 5 million Africans die while crossing the seas and another 5 million Jews die at the hands of Hitler...Where was this mystery god Jesus then? Should we punish him for not using his mystical powers the same way you spoke of in your previous posts?

Salaam Alaikem

I dont want you to gather any deep feelings, it is simply a forum for us to dialogue and I dont think you are a bad person for your views....but many years of life have gone by for me and I have learned to accept both religions for what they are...a culture of people brought together to worship.

Islam, a tyranny based on religion, is to our generation what Nazism, tyranny based on racial hatred, and Communism, tyranny based on class hatred, was to our parents’ and grandparents’ generations. Our parents and grandparents dispatched both Nazism and Communism in short order because they had no doubt that America was the greatest country in the history of the world. Both tyrannies had their supporters and apologists around the world and in our country during their reigns. Of course the human emotions that led to their formations are as old as humankind itself and will never cease, just remain in check. As bad as Communists and Nazis were, they were not sufficiently enamored of their beliefs that they would blow themselves up as Muslims do.

Islam, ignoring the finer points of theology, has the intention of ultimately conquering the world and destroying the adherents of the other two major monotheistic faiths, Judaism and Christianity, along with all the secularists who don’t follow any faith or have abandoned their faiths. Islam is a far older tyranny than either Nazism or Communism and its followers have a built-in tolerance for biding their time, even over centuries, to accomplish their goals.

Virtually every major terrorist attack of the last 45 years was made by Muslims against civilization, right up to and including the one at Ft. Hood last week. Just as during the reign of Communism, there has been a notion that somehow these things must be tolerated and lived with because to respond to them would only make them madder.

Just as Patrick said, during the last 70 years, the rank and file populations of Germany or Japan probably had no quarrel at all with our citizens, just wanting to live their lives and pursue their dreams unmolested. It’s not the rank and file we have to fear, but the leaders and their armies—and in the case of Islam rabid individuals ready to blow themselves and everyone else to pieces. The individual Muslims I’ve worked with in the past were perfectly reasonable, likable people—except for their food. On one occasion on a “Diversity” day, they prepared some of their native dishes and I couldn’t abide them—I only like normal food and wasn’t able to take more than one bite before I had to excuse myself.

Muslims have none of the self-doubt and self-loathing that is so prevalent in the West today—they’re true believers in the ultimate victory of Islam over the infidel, plus they have infinite patience.

Much of Europe has abandoned Judeo/Christianity and the cities of Paris and London have large enclaves of self-segregated Muslims who marinate in resentment and hostility towards Westerners—they’d love to do the Charleston and Black Bottom and wear short skirts, but know Mohammed wouldn’t approve. Laws have been passed in many of these places that forbid any kind of criticism or satire directed against Muslims because they are so tetchy and can be set off by the least little thing that might offend them. A great palliative to Islam would be for the Firehouse Five Plus Two to set up in a mosque and blast the thing with a rousing version of Tiger Rag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rljRIEMDSo&feature=related

Many of your comments are based on Eastern Islamic philosophy, since I live in America I cannot hate America. I agree with what Patrick states but I dont engage in that stupidity nor do I deny it exists.

None of these fools were prophets, including Jesus. They were all men spewing a bunch of dreams from their internal desires and fears.

I dont follow anything blindly and without introspection.

In post #3, steady market watcher said:

"The Dalai Lama has proven to be a snake, a shameless opportunist who tried to capitalize on the opportunity to blackmail China as it readies to host the Olympics. "

Communism China has forced Dalai Lama, the Tibet leader (in sense of both religion and politics), to exile his homeland for more than half a century. A lot of his follwers who could not escape 50+ years ago had been either killed or tortured to death in jail. As the whole watching, Dalai is still being "rejected" to go back to his own country by the Communism China, which has occupied Tibet for 50+ years.

If you don't know this fact, Mr. steady market watch, just google it. An ignorant person never makes a good watch-er --- no matter what issue he intends to watch.

If you know that part of history, then, Mr. steady market watch, you certainly have very unique observation incline to see that Dalai is a snake just because Dalai made some soft and gentle complaint to the China government after he has been exiled for 50+ years and is still being deprived the right to go back to where he was born by invading foreign power.

Islam and Judaism is a culture, a religion, and a way of life enmeshed together with a legal system and world-domination as an end-goal. Some forms of Christianity share these characteristics. These religions desire(d) to create a nation-state. For Jews: they must make a distinction between Zionism and Judaism. Not all Jews support the nation-state of Israel or the creation of a Zionist state. Many are against it. The same goes for Muslims and Christians creating states of their own.

Ultimately, we must examine our religious texts from an historical critical approach. You can't rely only on the text! You have to read the history with the text and examine the text critically for contradictions, not just devotionally! Stop the hate and the violence brothers and sisters! Have some respect for personal conviction!

Me: I was baptized a Christian. My religion was used to exploit people and keep them from thinking for themselves. Our texts were changed. You can read Bart D. Ehrman's research. Research the historical period from 0-300ce you'll see this clearly. The original followers of Yeshua were Torah following, Koesher Jews who believed that Yeshua fulfilled some manner of prophecy. There is one thing I like about the religion I came from. It shows that there is more to the law: the spirit behind the law and matters of the heart are just as important. And if you love your neighbor as yourself and love G-d, then you fulfill most of the law (some of the mitzvot and all Ten Commandments) Ultimately, Christianity is Greek platonism/mysticism fastened to Judaism with elements of Zorastrianism (First four chapters of Matthew, some of Luke, and Revelation). Unfortunately, Christianity is often used by corrupt politicians, clergy and popes to exploit people who are ignorant.

One thing we can agree on: Principles are important. They do exist. And unless we have some, civilization descends into chaos as history too easily makes clear. You all may not believe in religion, but I believe in the principles taught by my religion. Read Matthew chapter 5 and James 1-5. Ultimately my personal convictions lie closest to Ebionite. Yes, I am a heretic. I am sure the Christians and the Jews will both hate me now. Here: I don't believe Mohammed was a prophet and I think his life is very unspiritual. Now everyone hates me. Wait: Atheists, I believe in the idea of God even if God is a theoretical construct. Why: I believe principles have a divine source.

Islam and Judaism is a culture, a religion, and a way of life enmeshed together with a legal system and world-domination as an end-goal. Some forms of Christianity share these characteristics. These religions desire(d) to create a nation-state. For Jews: they must make a distinction between Zionism and Judaism. Not all Jews support the nation-state of Israel or the creation of a Zionist state. Many are against it. The same goes for Muslims and Christians creating states of their own.

Ultimately, we must examine our religious texts from an historical critical approach. You can't rely only on the text! You have to read the history with the text and examine the text critically for contradictions, not just devotionally! Stop the hate and the violence brothers and sisters! Have some respect for personal conviction!

Me: I was baptized a Christian. My religion was used to exploit people and keep them from thinking for themselves. Our texts were changed. You can read Bart D. Ehrman's research. Research the historical period from 0-300ce you'll see this clearly. The original followers of Yeshua were Torah following, Koesher Jews who believed that Yeshua fulfilled some manner of prophecy. There is one thing I like about the religion I came from. It shows that there is more to the law: the spirit behind the law and matters of the heart are just as important. And if you love your neighbor as yourself and love G-d, then you fulfill most of the law (some of the mitzvot and all Ten Commandments) Ultimately, Christianity is Greek platonism/mysticism fastened to Judaism with elements of Zorastrianism (First four chapters of Matthew, some of Luke, and Revelation). Unfortunately, Christianity is often used by corrupt politicians, clergy and popes to exploit people who are ignorant.

One thing we can agree on: Principles are important. They do exist. And unless we have some, civilization descends into chaos as history too easily makes clear. You all may not believe in religion, but I believe in the principles taught by my religion. Read Matthew chapter 5 and James 1-5. Ultimately my personal convictions lie closest to Ebionite. Yes, I am a heretic. I am sure the Christians and the Jews will both hate me now. Here: I don't believe Mohammed was a prophet and I think his life is very unspiritual. Now everyone hates me. Wait: Atheists, I believe in the idea of God even if God is only a theoretical construct. Why: I believe principles have a divine source.

Whenever you point your finger at someone you have three pointing back at you.

We can only lead by example. Only 15% of the US believe in naturalistic evolution; 30% or so desire public law to reflect Old Testament writings. We have our own row to hoe.

The problem isn't any particular religion so much as it's religion itself.
Used to promulgate mythology of whatever stripe, it's also used to justify and then start wars.
I've come to believe through observation that many humans seem to need some sort of belief in something other than our own abilities, and it doesn't increase our chances of survival as a species.