patrick.net

like I said, free care means have the docs and pharms do what they do for free. End all insurance and go back to cash-n-carry with consumers' ability to pay sets the market.

Go Trout Go

Trout,

You see things for what they are, but you are fighting the wrong battle.

You need to become part of the problem, not the solution. Look after your own interests and let the rest of them crash and burn.

hard to tell ... they all come here for care

Bap33 makes me look like a left-wing liberal. :-)

The market should run most health care services but it is not unreasonable to have universal catastrophic care. We want people to pay for care but we do not want unforeseen circumstances to ruin families.

Taxing is paying for care.

What we don't need is a for profit system being the only game in town. The market can service the elective medical needs, and the hard core Socialphobics.

The system needs to be toe up from the flow up.

It would be much cheaper to educate federal doctors. It works in every country in the world no reason it can't work here.

Then while we're at it, people should be obliged to volunteer their time at hospitals. Like jury duty. Every healthy person should have to give one day every six months or so. At first those days would be used for basic qualifications, like CPR and basic Nursing skills, where you show up and to class to get basic training. This would also help people get a better understanding of health and see first hand the long term effects of vices they now take for granted. Perhaps as years go on and one has qualifications and experience, then you'll be paid something for the days you pull Hospital duty. I'm talking low level nurse or orderly stuff here, not LPN stuff. Changing bed pans, checking in on patients helping out.

But more importantly people that have been raking in a killing in bio medical stocks capitalizing on peoples pain and suffering can see where their profits were coming from. They can think about that as they are shoving a catheter in a bums johnson.

@Tenouncetrout

I can’t for the life of me, imagine a president claiming to have our interest in mind, toying with legislation that would include these Creeps in the equation, unless of course their lobbyists are part of the architects of this POS legislation. And the more this drags on the clearer that reality becomes. Get your heads out of your arses and pay attention.

Insurance by anyother name is still freaking insurance with the same usual suspect key players.

It makes me sick for humanity that you guys don’t get this. Hind sight is a bitch, but this is a no brainer.

That is why I am asking you to explain your ideal system, but you keep interjecting your statements with criticisms of Obama and our corrupt political system. Without going into the rhetoric, lets dialogue with specifics on what you believe will work.

What specific steps do you think are going to work to make health care affordable?
Where are the current abuses in our healthcare system?
What steps do you see as necessary to reform welfare?
What plans, methods do you support for economic recovery?

That's not true...

I have told you, you're just selectively reading skimming over content to find the word Obama to take issue with what, I've said. All of those other beeps and squeaks they mean something so pay attention.

"What specific steps do you think are going to work to make health care affordable?"

By not participating in Wall Streets version of the health care system. Period, the Government needs to run a Health care system independently from any and all out side companies.

From the education to the buildings to the technology a separate government entity.

How does that improve affordability you ask?

For starters, all most all technological and biological medical advancements are paid in full by You and Me in the form of Grants our government gives Universities to develop new technologies. Companies then get to take those discoveries and manufacture them, they have no obligation to pay back the R&D that went into it, nor or they told how much they can charge for the technology.
So right there we've already got the cutting edge of technology covered and we haven't spent a dime. Now if you don't think our government is not capable of distributing these technologies to the patients that need them for pennies on the hundred dollars compared to what the current corporate medical industry can. Then I'm talking to my inferior, and you should probably seek more light conversation like Monster Truck pull forums or the like.

""All of those other beeps and squeaks they mean something so pay attention.""
ok .. now nobody get offended ... but that really is funny.

4X and TPB ... you guys are on the same team ... so close it's distrubing.

@Tenouncetrout

“What specific steps do you think are going to work to make health care affordable?”

By not participating in Wall Streets version of the health care system. Period, the Government needs to run a Health care system independently from any and all out side companies.

From the education to the buildings to the technology a separate government entity.

I agree, althought you wanting another government run entity is weird seing you have conservative views against socialism. Hasnt the government failed enough at managing our social security, social welfare? What happened to your conservative beliefs in less government or no socialism? So far we are allowing the funds of paying citizens to dry up so that they can afford immigrants the same rights as citizens. Before I would support the public option I would require that all programs be reformed to use their tax money more thrifty. Most corporations Finance groups call this "cost management" and it is aimed at reducing operating costs. Government or Non-Profits employees could care less about how much they spend because the money keeps coming.

For starters, all most all technological and biological medical advancements are paid in full by You and Me in the form of Grants our government gives Universities to develop new technologies. Companies then get to take those discoveries and manufacture them, they have no obligation to pay back the R&D that went into it, nor or they told how much they can charge for the technology.

I agree somewhat, as how I see it is that the government gives these grants out in hopes of creating new industries and driving new findings in technology, science and military weapons in hopes of keeping our infrastructure, weapons technology leading edge. These grants simply are aimed at keeping us #1 in terms of advancement. Similarly, we invest billions into NASA programs in hopes of finding a new source of natural resources that we will call our own. I disagree here, I actually find this as a positive that government doesnt get involved after the products have been developed...unless were talking about the pharmaceuticals industry, whom are charging way too much for their products.

So right there we’ve already got the cutting edge of technology covered and we haven’t spent a dime. Now if you don’t think our government is not capable of distributing these technologies to the patients that need them for pennies on the hundred dollars compared to what the current corporate medical industry can. Then I’m talking to my inferior, and you should probably seek more light conversation like Monster Truck pull forums or the like.

LOL. I do believe we can setup a system but it will be filled with waste. The 7 deadly wastes are principles of Toyota LEAN manufacturing....read up on it. With government comes a lot of waste because the people running government dont care about the bottom line because next year they will get their revenues regardless of whether the product sells or not...simply put, the taxpayers will continue to pay for poorly run services. Government runs like a non-profit...as longs as the grants or taxes keep coming the employees will deliver status quo. On the opposite view, for profit industries generally are fueled by greed and the desire to grow revenues at any cost. Which is why you dont trust the healthcare companies to reorg themselves.

@BAP

“”All of those other beeps and squeaks they mean something so pay attention.”"
ok .. now nobody get offended … but that really is funny.

4X and TPB … you guys are on the same team … so close it’s distrubing.

What does that mean?...our beliefs are similar?

Funny the Government is the boogie man yet you have faith in this Government. Hmmm?

The systems you claim the Government had done a bad job of managing, is not the problem. The problem is those managing or more in this case not managing these systems.

@TROUT

I have faith in what government?....Obama?...if so, maybe you should check my other posts whereby I have stated his attempts to stabilize housing is not the right direction. We should be taking a more sustainable approach and allow the markets to reset themselves to where products, homes are affordable in comparison to the wages people are earning. The 8K tax credit will only stave off the inevitable for a later date. So far, Obama has not support any of the movements I have listed. He has done more for liberal movements gay rights, and abortion rights than he has for my progressive American Dream. These are not my issues but Healthcare, Economic Recovery and Housing are important to me...we can spend 1 trillion on economic recovery but cant reduce government enought to offset the costs. We can bailout banks but cant provide tax incentives enticing enough to business to keep jobs local. Anytime I hear someone say Obama is progressive, I say that he is the new liberal-progressive who supports homosexuality and murder of babies, because all the other progressive movements have somewhat accomplished what they sought out to accomplish.

But, they didnt finish the job....the next progressive movement is to cleanup the systems already in place, reform government so that we can tax less.

Support for homosexuality, abortion wont do any of that!

Here is what I support:

War.....Pull out of Iraq, Afghanistan, spend the money on healthcare
Welfare Reform...the poor are either mentality ill, lazy, or just not driven enough so they take the easy road at McDonalds. Either way we should not enable them
Economic Recovery...let the banks fail, veto gramm-leach-bliley, and stop attempting to fund GDP with equity. Bring manufacturing back to the USA with tax incentives. If we stop funding wars we wont need the 300b in taxes businesses pay anyways.
Healthcare ...Reform it, reduce costs of medicine, and provide a public option that pays for itself. Meaning that the public option needs to be a for profit entity that is regulated by government.
Housing...let it reset to normal market prices would look like 10 years after pre-2000 prices. Meaning, add 3% every year to each house and reset the prices to that. If Obama wants to keep people in their homes, then have the banks refinance the current homeowners at 25-50% less than the current market rates.

"Welfare Reform…the poor are either mentality ill, lazy, or just not driven enough so they take the easy road at McDonalds. Either way we should not enable them"

Why do you care where and what they eat?

What is a "public option" and what does it mean? Can you tell me, and just how is it different than letting the already heavy handed Medical machine? Be sure to include just why an public option(what ever that is and means) will reduce costs.

"Meaning that the public option needs to be a for profit entity that is regulated by government."

Yeah let me know how that works out for you, send me a post card, I'll be in another country by then.

Do you really think the government will run a "FOR PROFIT" system any different than they run all hybrid agencies where city, county, state, and federal governments out source services to private companies?

I challenge you to give one example of private companies doing Government work that hasn't been wrought with some scandal or accusations of indiscretions in the last ten years.

The worst part of this model is elected officals that are interested in reform can't go after private companies because they were just doing their jobs, and some public official okeydoked every thing they did. So even though they get exposed they are rarely prosecuted. Where as an government employees can be called upon three administrations latter to account for discrepancies.

@4X,
"the beeps and squeeks" .. I had to laugh, and I'm sure you did too.

Yes, in my opinion you are both deep thinking conservatives. And I think that true conservatives never really "mesh" due to their independant thought process and personal moral anchor. I'd really enjoy an hour of debate with you guys at a Dennys over some coffee ... the personalitys and intellect would be good for conversation. Thats more-or-less what I meant.

TPB has never failed to support his view with thought and real world experience without any mumbo jumbo. I am sure you enjoy this banter as much as he. And you have proven yourself a very good writer and thinker ... so it's all good.

@Tenouncetrout

“Welfare Reform…the poor are either mentality ill, lazy, or just not driven enough so they take the easy road at McDonalds. Either way we should not enable them”

Why do you care where and what they eat?

I was referring to where they choose to work....most are minimum wage lifers.

“Meaning that the public option needs to be a for profit entity that is regulated by government.”

Yeah let me know how that works out for you, send me a post card, I’ll be in another country by then. Do you really think the government will run a “FOR PROFIT” system any different than they run all hybrid agencies where city, county, state, and federal governments out source services to private companies?

I never said it would work, I said thats the only way I would support a public option. There is too much waste in the not for profit sectors...CUT, CUT, CUT is my motto for these programs and REGULATE, REGULATE, REGULATE is my motto regarding for profit entities.

@BAP

Yes, in my opinion you are both deep thinking conservatives. And I think that true conservatives never really “mesh” due to their independant thought process and personal moral anchor. I’d really enjoy an hour of debate with you guys at a Dennys over some coffee … the personalitys and intellect would be good for conversation. Thats more-or-less what I meant.

I agree, except I also have a progressive side....which to me simply means that I want programs aimed at the betterment of our society that do not enable the poor to feed off the system and do not allow the rich to manipulate the poor.

TPB has never failed to support his view with thought and real world experience without any mumbo jumbo. I am sure you enjoy this banter as much as he. And you have proven yourself a very good writer and thinker … so it’s all good.

There is so much mumbo-jumbo there that I have a difficult time figuring out which direction he is going with his viewpoints. One moment, he believes in the public option the next he is saying the government cant run any of their programs successfully. Personally, I just think government needs to engage in some LEAN practices found at Toyota. We need to reduce waste, invest in programs that encourage growth of our citizens, and provide incentives to corporations to bring manufacturing back to the USA. Trout has a difficult time clearly articulating his views without going into the whole "George Bush held hands, Obama doesnt have a birth certificate, Clinton did not inhale" rhetoric.

After each and every statement, I keep asking him to stay with the facts. More teaching, less preaching...at this point I dont know if he is communist, socialist, conservative or liberal..I am confused.

"One moment, he believes in the public option "

Class have I ever eluded to the opinion that I support "The Public Option" I still can't get anyone to tell me just what in Fruck it means. I never partake in anything I don't understand and neither should a nation as a whole. (as it is now)

You guys bite every jargon and made up spare of the moment vernacular the Congress criters throws your way. Hell I bet most are just happy to have new buzz words to throw around in Monday morning meetings. These words get used with impunity on being called out on their meaning. Because it is just understood they sound cool but no one expects anybody to know what they mean.

Hence is our Government at work setting the standards for our work force and those who manage them.

In other words I have never supported "The public option" what ever in the hell it might mean.

"After each and every statement, I keep asking him to stay with the facts. More teaching, less preaching…at this point I dont know if he is communist, socialist, conservative or liberal..I am confused."

Then I must be on the right track to truly being an Independent. Surely all parties have some redeeming qualities. People should listen to the proposals and focus less on what affiliations are delivering them.

I sit party-less waiting for Washington and Reagan to reserect.

I was a young tike during those times...all I remember is my dad was working the oil fields in Texas.

Bap33 says

I sit party-less waiting for Washington and Reagan to reserect.

The Potomac will rise again!