patrick.net

elliemae says

Bush Sr. took 543 days in 4 years!

Well...I'm not going to judge a guy's need for a little vacation, but I just might scrutinize the direction the nation took under his term. I can only guess America was on the up and up during this time? Why of course--even though most CEOs I know cannot take 4.5 months of vacation/year without losing their grip on the business. Obviously Bush Sr's grip on reality was unusually tight.

When you consider the costs of presidential vacations - the extra security for towns, buildings for the secret service, the meals, cost of moving key personnel to wherever the prez hangs, etc I'd say presidential vacations are huge expenses I'd rather not pay for.

Elliemae,
Physical costs aside, what I find interesting is how a US president would dismiss the strategic costs of such extended vacations? If it wasn't obvious in my last post--I consider that highly self-indulgent for any president (politics be damned) to spend every third day+ away from DC. Then again, maybe he was simply assuring us that America was doing so well we didn't need a "hands-on" president? I'm not too surprised, because the apathy of that time was palpable: keep telling ourselves "America is great," despite that big gorilla in the room. Like the president, most Americans were indulging themselves in a lifestyle that kept their mind off real problems. Connect those dots, and here we stand today.

elliemae says

If the amount charged is based on income, and your income is decreased, your share of cost will be decreased.

Ellie it's not the "Amount" it's who and what is dictating the "Amount" and the corporations will benefit plenty from any legislation that passes, or it wont pass. Just watch the news(is any one paying attention???).

This will be the Government once again interjecting it's influence in an out sourced industry. The only effect the government could possibly have on price, is what it holds the industry over the barrel to. We all know the possibility of a not for profit system we will be paying into will not exist. And on the Dow's whims our premiums will ebb and flow. My god the educated elite can not see the flaws in the legislation like an immature young turk having an orgasm before the touching even commences. You guys just want a Democrat victory on any goddamn thing. What, Who, How and where as the track record for every thing done in the last 9 years will be an after thought.

I can already compile a list of "I told you So's" just from what the debate started out as and how it has morphed and the sloppy lose edges that will now be left to be exploited.

I could but the proof of my claims has been deleted on this board and of course going back even earlier like my take on his campaign rehtoric in the old forums.
This has been playing just as predicted, and I suspect the final out come will be no different.

A hefty opressive premium the middle class is on the hook to take the tab for. I suspect there will be just as many disenfranchised middle class that wont be able to afford lofty premiums as well as mortgage, car payments, house insurance, house taxes, car insurance, soaring energy costs, these people will probably opt for the fee imposed on them at tax time. But no mistake they will be the new class of "UNINSURED".

and will be punished for being so. Either that or they will be forced into a more modest life style so they can get all of the federal well fare and freebies like housing subsidies, stimulus, and subsidized health care. Which is the Rights gripe, it's not the full picture but that is the part of the picture they don't like. Why work hard to win, when the Government pays big to be a loser?

This is a fair and great system you short sighted lemmings are pulling us up hill to.

trout--

I love when someone posts that the "could" do this, or "could" post the proof, but they choose not to. In my experience, if you have the goods then you'll put them out there for everyone to see. Of course you knew all along because you're much smarter than everyone else...

I agree that the current health care bill is not what I wanted. But, the reason why is that the entrenched insurance execs, pharma execs, and the congressmen that they have on their payroll have so throroughly distorted the health care debate that we're left with a damaged bill. Sarah Palin's death panels, the commercials saying that you'll lose your Medicare, etc. have scared seniors enough to crash the town hall meetings.

It's really unfortunate because we had an opportunity to join the rest of the civilized world...

you're new here so I'll just let you pretend to know my stance on "ALL OF THIS" from the beginning, as the rest have already heard it all since February of 07.

You can throw out unrelated concerns made by marginalized people for a group of people that I do not fit in to the context of as shaping my opinion. Why don't you just be honest already and tell me I don't like because you think I'm a racist for having anything other admiration for Obama and this do nothing Washington as a whole.

"Could" is no better than "Push" and "I'm going to" while the actions of those that are in charge to make it so, have a different take.

If you're just being selective to make your case, or to discredit mine then, that really wont be productive. Everyone that isn't a Leftbag whether they are a republican or Independent, isn't impressed by that kind of Smugivity.

In fact it's that very mechanism that most probably will propel Sarah to the Presidency in 2012.

The rest of us look at Sarah as a possible Roach bomb president. and Washington is in dire need of depesting.

Go, lemmings go!

Where are they going? I must follow, for I am their leader!

Under Republicans, man exploits man. Under Democrats, it's the opposite.

(a few of my favorite bumper stickers). :)

@Trout

Someone said before that we have a 2 party system, THE GOVERNMENT vs. THE PEOPLE so why not try talking about solutions in place of who is the blame and why our president doesnt deserve the Nobel prize for bringing hope to the arena of politics? None of us could ever fathom the type of political gamemanship it takes to get legislation passed in Washington. You use a lot of name calling in your remarks that only ad to the divide that is already there. The obvious counter is that Republicans are ignorant rednecks, or that Democrats are pot smoking homosexuals....but that would not get us anywhere on the point at hand now would it? Give the man a chance to make an impact before judging his accomplishments.

Here is my view on all the mud slinging being dished out as a result of the past 8 years of ANTI-BUSH sentiment.

1. For those of you who question his birth rights, I say that you should leave your rural neighborhoods to become a part of the rest of society, stop dating your cousins and pursue an education higher than the 3rd grade level. Even my 3 year old can read through the rhetoric of his birth rights.

2. For those of you who doubt his qualifications for the Nobel Prize, remember, he is the leader of the free world…something that you or I will never accomplish. He has brought many together under one single cause with just a few inspirational speeches, something many of your pastors have yet to accomplish. Relish this moment in history, grow your families and stop being anti-Obama for the simple fact the entire world was anti-BUSH.

3. For those of you that hold his articulation in disdain, try reading a book. He is the most articulate canidate we have ever seen…I wouldnt pass on him for a job interview and couldnt pass on his run for President.

4. For those of you who tout him as a Socialist, see patricks pledge against socialism. If you are nuts enough to stop contributing to any of the following programs then please feel free to exit left to Mexico. Mexico does not have any of these public services, so feel free to be a proud Mexican.

4X says

@Trout
Someone said before that we have a 2 party system, THE GOVERNMENT vs. THE PEOPLE so why not try talking about solutions in place of who is the blame and why our president doesnt deserve the Nobel prize for bringing hope to the arena of politics? None of us could ever fathom the type of political gamemanship it takes to get legislation passed in Washington. You use a lot of name calling in your remarks that only ad to the divide that is already there. The obvious counter is that Republicans are ignorant rednecks, or that Democrats are pot smoking homosexuals….but that would not get us anywhere on the point at hand now would it? Give the man a chance to make an impact before judging his accomplishments.
Here is my view on all the mud slinging being dished out as a result of the past 8 years of ANTI-BUSH sentiment.
1. For those of you who question his birth rights, I say that you should leave your rural neighborhoods to become a part of the rest of society, stop dating your cousins and pursue an education higher than the 3rd grade level. Even my 3 year old can read through the rhetoric of his birth rights.
2. For those of you who doubt his qualifications for the Nobel Prize, remember, he is the leader of the free world…something that you or I will never accomplish. He has brought many together under one single cause with just a few inspirational speeches, something many of your pastors have yet to accomplish. Relish this moment in history, grow your families and stop being anti-Obama for the simple fact the entire world was anti-BUSH.
3. For those of you that hold his articulation in disdain, try reading a book. He is the most articulate canidate we have ever seen…I wouldnt pass on him for a job interview and couldnt pass on his run for President.
4. For those of you who tout him as a Socialist, see patricks pledge against socialism. If you are nuts enough to stop contributing to any of the following programs then please feel free to exit left to Mexico. Mexico does not have any of these public services, so feel free to be a proud Mexican.

Damn you really need to read the people you target to Troll a little better.

I don't give a Rats ass about non of that.

I have a problem with his corporate Monologues, idiots like you eat by the Pie tin.

Look didn't you just out your self as provoking troll last week? What do you want? Can I help you fancy pantz?
Do you have an appointment?

dude, I wasnt attacking you. My point is that if we keep attacking each other AND our president we get off topic. The major issues at hand are our economy, health care and housing markets...how are we going to reform those areas. Just because people hated Bush doesnt mean we have to hate Obama.

Nice gunslinging, but I am through attacking others for their ideas...so back to the topic: How is Obama receiving the Nobel Peace Prize going to fix our economy?

I don't know I haven't thought about this for almost ten days, how does it make you feel.

As for Bush I said Obama would be a continuation of Bush early on in 07' as the media was fabricating him.
So far I haven't been wrong, when he slips up and does GOOD, I'll be the first to admit it. In the meantime enjoy the hype if you like I'm all topped off from Bush thank you very much.

If I've been wrong about anyone in the 08 primaries I'd have to give Ron Paul more props than I did back then.
I just wish he would run on an independent ticket. And all of that free market talk, and doing away with the Fed, seemed like crazy talk in Feb/08. By the time he dropped out of the race, all of the ass holes in Washington proved his point with blank checks for every banker with a sob story, Like the money line in "The Jerk" where they all stood in line for Steve Martins money. By that time in late 08 long Ron Paul backed off on his campaign.

The only thing that has changed with the idiots in Washington spending every cent they can so frivolously for all of the wrong reasons. Is there's a new Sheriff asshole in town to sign the checks.

I'm not going to get into a socialist debate with you, because the government is supposed to tax the citizens and dole out services as fit.
This legislation is nothing of the sort. I am for taxation, I am not for Facisim, in the form of federal mandated corporate patronage.

So you see I'm for taxing, I'm for services, and more importantly I'm for the man that keeps every one honest on the up and up.

They and We have substituted that due diligence, with buzz words and new catch phrases like "Transparency" and the media reinforces it in their hourly jargon until we just believe there is transparency on a black box. Not only that, with out accounting for what I'm already taxed for. Various forms of governments keep coming up with more gimmicks to extract more of my money to pay for things that are already paid for through my taxes.

@TROUT

I get it, regardless of who is in office they will make decisions that only benefit the lobbyists and spin it to sound as if it benefits main street when it only benefits Wall Street. It sort of begs to ask why the banks got a bailout but the homeowners didnt....not that I would support either bailout. I think the markets have to be allowed to reset on their own, and incentives need to be provided for banks to lend, businesses to grow and keep jobs local and for real estate agents to stop their thievery. Obama receiving the Nobel Prize does nothing for either of those causes...and yes, I do see how he is continuing certain policies of Bush's as not all of Bush's policies were as off track as the media attempted to paint them. Both parties are leaning towards the middle now, neither actually do what they say they will because the other side is waiting to trounce.

Less government, less taxes and improved social programs that do away with the abuses would be my policies.

-No welfare after 18 mos
-No government relief for able bodied young adults
-Reform of FHA, FANNIE MAE, FREDDIE to remove any tax payer backed loans
-Increased Tax incentives for businesses keeping jobs local (We really dont need the 300B in business Taxes)
-Reform of Health Care (I dont need a public option but i need to know that if i get severely sick i wont go bankrupt or be left to die)
-No social security, health care for non-working adults
-We can save 100B per year by pulling out of IRAQ
-We can reduce the federal budget by cutting 40% by vetoing Bush's social policies (30%) and Obama's new social policies (10%)

Now is not the time to be investing in social services, now is the time to cut back and make attempts to keep credit flowing, allow housing to reset, and provide incentives for new/existing businesses with a decrease in taxes. Some of these Obama has done, but we have to watch closely over the next 3 years as he reduced taxes by 250B but increased stimilus spending by 550B. More than 3 million manufacturing jobs have disappeared since 1998, we could use those jobs now to stimulate the economy but the businesses have no reason to keep them here. Forrester Research Inc. predicts U.S. employers will move 3.4 million white-collar jobs and $136 billion in wages overseas by 2015. Job loss does not just hurt individual workers and their families. Entire communities are affected negatively as tax revenues fall, dependency on public assistance increases, and incomes stagnate. And as the off-shoring and job loss spreads to sectors with higher technology and skills that drive innovation and productivity, it puts the long-term competitiveness of the American economy at risk.

I plan to sit back and watch it unfold...HOPEfully Obama will realize that these wages were once a part of the revenue cycle here in America. If in 2 years this trend continues and Obama does nothing then I plan to join you in calling our government officials a bunch of idiots.

As I see it, Obama's challenge is to reduce government enough so that he can lower business taxes for those that keep jobs local. If he doesnt accomplish this then I foresee us all competing for jobs at McDonalds and/or changing our professions.

Cited From: http://www.outsourcing-offshore.com/itjobs.html

The Need to Prevent Legislative Limits on Offshoring

Another major finding was that governments can not legislate limits on offshoring. "It's impossible because offshoring is occurring in almost all developed countries," says Carleton. Any country that legislates limits on sending white collar IT jobs elsewhere places "domestic industries at a competitive disadvantage," in his opinion. Concludes the report, "The nation that places restrictions on the export of IT jobs will hobble its own business and could be inadvertently legislating the destruction of millions of additional jobs as a result."

As I see it, Obama’s challenge is to reduce government enough so that he can lower business taxes for those that keep jobs local.

If he can do that I am going to LOVE him.

Please, Please, everyone, Obama has done enough Horn tooting of his own at this juncture.
No need to squeeze the honk bladder, there's enough "Ima gonna" thrown around by his own accord.

Let's see some action...

Nothing you can say that aint been said. Now show me anything that hasn't been seen, like accomplishments.

The more you guys talk the less faith I have in this country. We should all be unselectively fist throwing mad at the whole damn lot of Washington.

I bet the fall or Rome started with this kind of misguided faith and complacency for enepticisim.

@Trout

I am not sure how you see my comments on what his challenges are as a toot of his horn. I agree, that at this point all he has done is listen to the banks, congress and poor home owners who made poor business decisions. What are policies you would like to see enacted? Maybe you have some manifesto of some sort you would like to share?

Do you really need a manifesto to do right?

Do I really need to describe what an effective presidency would be? Aren't you American enough to know the difference?

Well lemme take just one small stab, any president that wants to address the health care system in this country, first needs to start by using unambiguous language on what that system would be. For starters a single payer is a misnomer, and a public option at this juncture isn't an option for anyone but the insurance industry.
Why in the hell can't it be called a "National Health care system" and we pay for it by our taxes.
One where people like the Personal property tax auditor from Christmas Story II(I think it was, it could have been number one) goes around checking who's on the up and up and seeking out fraud and abuse with malice and zeal.

Remember that character, people in the government was that tenacious back then. It's why we as a society were more accountable because we were held to accountability back then. People were watched to make sure they played by the rules and as a result neighbors held neighbors accountable to the same standards they had to be held to.

Put a few of those guys in the medicare system and I guarantee overnight we could find enough money in the Medicare/medicaid system to provide medical needs for every American citizen.

I'm not for "BIG" government, I'm for people working in government doing their god damn job, then people like Obama would be side show and not person People are looking to for answers. Because he is clearly only here to serve as the guy delivering monologues at town hall meetings dishing out massive quantities of "OKEYDOKE".

Besides we need a separate system from these Ghouls.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/27/news/economy/healthcare_medicare_doctors/index.htm?postversion=2009102707

We need a system, no "The" system we are already paying for. Where people and doctors like the ones pointed out in this article don't get to call the shots. Or wouldn't have any business belly aching over what the system pays them because they should be government employees. Face it we will never win going head to head with these Scum bags.
They own three to four luxury cars and live in 4500 sqft mansions and are bitching about what to charge providing medical service to those that can least afford it, old and infirmed.

I don't get all of the kit gloves we afford this corrupt medical machine and the Doctors are the least of the problem.

Administrators and CEO's needing their hefty bonuses, and investors needing lofty YOY profits.

I can't for the life of me, imagine a president claiming to have our interest in mind, toying with legislation that would include these Creeps in the equation, unless of course their lobbyists are part of the architects of this POS legislation. And the more this drags on the clearer that reality becomes. Get your heads out of your arses and pay attention.

Insurance by anyother name is still freaking insurance with the same usual suspect key players.

It makes me sick for humanity that you guys don't get this. Hind sight is a bitch, but this is a no brainer.

I am here to Rob you guys of Hind sight, when this blows up and every thing I fear happens(and it will). You don't to say "Who knew?". I'll number the seats on the mini bus for you guys.

like I said, free care means have the docs and pharms do what they do for free. End all insurance and go back to cash-n-carry with consumers' ability to pay sets the market.

Go Trout Go

Trout,

You see things for what they are, but you are fighting the wrong battle.

You need to become part of the problem, not the solution. Look after your own interests and let the rest of them crash and burn.

hard to tell ... they all come here for care

Bap33 makes me look like a left-wing liberal. :-)

The market should run most health care services but it is not unreasonable to have universal catastrophic care. We want people to pay for care but we do not want unforeseen circumstances to ruin families.

Taxing is paying for care.

What we don't need is a for profit system being the only game in town. The market can service the elective medical needs, and the hard core Socialphobics.

The system needs to be toe up from the flow up.

It would be much cheaper to educate federal doctors. It works in every country in the world no reason it can't work here.

Then while we're at it, people should be obliged to volunteer their time at hospitals. Like jury duty. Every healthy person should have to give one day every six months or so. At first those days would be used for basic qualifications, like CPR and basic Nursing skills, where you show up and to class to get basic training. This would also help people get a better understanding of health and see first hand the long term effects of vices they now take for granted. Perhaps as years go on and one has qualifications and experience, then you'll be paid something for the days you pull Hospital duty. I'm talking low level nurse or orderly stuff here, not LPN stuff. Changing bed pans, checking in on patients helping out.

But more importantly people that have been raking in a killing in bio medical stocks capitalizing on peoples pain and suffering can see where their profits were coming from. They can think about that as they are shoving a catheter in a bums johnson.

@Tenouncetrout

I can’t for the life of me, imagine a president claiming to have our interest in mind, toying with legislation that would include these Creeps in the equation, unless of course their lobbyists are part of the architects of this POS legislation. And the more this drags on the clearer that reality becomes. Get your heads out of your arses and pay attention.

Insurance by anyother name is still freaking insurance with the same usual suspect key players.

It makes me sick for humanity that you guys don’t get this. Hind sight is a bitch, but this is a no brainer.

That is why I am asking you to explain your ideal system, but you keep interjecting your statements with criticisms of Obama and our corrupt political system. Without going into the rhetoric, lets dialogue with specifics on what you believe will work.

What specific steps do you think are going to work to make health care affordable?
Where are the current abuses in our healthcare system?
What steps do you see as necessary to reform welfare?
What plans, methods do you support for economic recovery?

That's not true...

I have told you, you're just selectively reading skimming over content to find the word Obama to take issue with what, I've said. All of those other beeps and squeaks they mean something so pay attention.

"What specific steps do you think are going to work to make health care affordable?"

By not participating in Wall Streets version of the health care system. Period, the Government needs to run a Health care system independently from any and all out side companies.

From the education to the buildings to the technology a separate government entity.

How does that improve affordability you ask?

For starters, all most all technological and biological medical advancements are paid in full by You and Me in the form of Grants our government gives Universities to develop new technologies. Companies then get to take those discoveries and manufacture them, they have no obligation to pay back the R&D that went into it, nor or they told how much they can charge for the technology.
So right there we've already got the cutting edge of technology covered and we haven't spent a dime. Now if you don't think our government is not capable of distributing these technologies to the patients that need them for pennies on the hundred dollars compared to what the current corporate medical industry can. Then I'm talking to my inferior, and you should probably seek more light conversation like Monster Truck pull forums or the like.

""All of those other beeps and squeaks they mean something so pay attention.""
ok .. now nobody get offended ... but that really is funny.

4X and TPB ... you guys are on the same team ... so close it's distrubing.

@Tenouncetrout

“What specific steps do you think are going to work to make health care affordable?”

By not participating in Wall Streets version of the health care system. Period, the Government needs to run a Health care system independently from any and all out side companies.

From the education to the buildings to the technology a separate government entity.

I agree, althought you wanting another government run entity is weird seing you have conservative views against socialism. Hasnt the government failed enough at managing our social security, social welfare? What happened to your conservative beliefs in less government or no socialism? So far we are allowing the funds of paying citizens to dry up so that they can afford immigrants the same rights as citizens. Before I would support the public option I would require that all programs be reformed to use their tax money more thrifty. Most corporations Finance groups call this "cost management" and it is aimed at reducing operating costs. Government or Non-Profits employees could care less about how much they spend because the money keeps coming.

For starters, all most all technological and biological medical advancements are paid in full by You and Me in the form of Grants our government gives Universities to develop new technologies. Companies then get to take those discoveries and manufacture them, they have no obligation to pay back the R&D that went into it, nor or they told how much they can charge for the technology.

I agree somewhat, as how I see it is that the government gives these grants out in hopes of creating new industries and driving new findings in technology, science and military weapons in hopes of keeping our infrastructure, weapons technology leading edge. These grants simply are aimed at keeping us #1 in terms of advancement. Similarly, we invest billions into NASA programs in hopes of finding a new source of natural resources that we will call our own. I disagree here, I actually find this as a positive that government doesnt get involved after the products have been developed...unless were talking about the pharmaceuticals industry, whom are charging way too much for their products.

So right there we’ve already got the cutting edge of technology covered and we haven’t spent a dime. Now if you don’t think our government is not capable of distributing these technologies to the patients that need them for pennies on the hundred dollars compared to what the current corporate medical industry can. Then I’m talking to my inferior, and you should probably seek more light conversation like Monster Truck pull forums or the like.

LOL. I do believe we can setup a system but it will be filled with waste. The 7 deadly wastes are principles of Toyota LEAN manufacturing....read up on it. With government comes a lot of waste because the people running government dont care about the bottom line because next year they will get their revenues regardless of whether the product sells or not...simply put, the taxpayers will continue to pay for poorly run services. Government runs like a non-profit...as longs as the grants or taxes keep coming the employees will deliver status quo. On the opposite view, for profit industries generally are fueled by greed and the desire to grow revenues at any cost. Which is why you dont trust the healthcare companies to reorg themselves.

@BAP

“”All of those other beeps and squeaks they mean something so pay attention.”"
ok .. now nobody get offended … but that really is funny.

4X and TPB … you guys are on the same team … so close it’s distrubing.

What does that mean?...our beliefs are similar?

Funny the Government is the boogie man yet you have faith in this Government. Hmmm?

The systems you claim the Government had done a bad job of managing, is not the problem. The problem is those managing or more in this case not managing these systems.

@TROUT

I have faith in what government?....Obama?...if so, maybe you should check my other posts whereby I have stated his attempts to stabilize housing is not the right direction. We should be taking a more sustainable approach and allow the markets to reset themselves to where products, homes are affordable in comparison to the wages people are earning. The 8K tax credit will only stave off the inevitable for a later date. So far, Obama has not support any of the movements I have listed. He has done more for liberal movements gay rights, and abortion rights than he has for my progressive American Dream. These are not my issues but Healthcare, Economic Recovery and Housing are important to me...we can spend 1 trillion on economic recovery but cant reduce government enought to offset the costs. We can bailout banks but cant provide tax incentives enticing enough to business to keep jobs local. Anytime I hear someone say Obama is progressive, I say that he is the new liberal-progressive who supports homosexuality and murder of babies, because all the other progressive movements have somewhat accomplished what they sought out to accomplish.

But, they didnt finish the job....the next progressive movement is to cleanup the systems already in place, reform government so that we can tax less.

Support for homosexuality, abortion wont do any of that!

Here is what I support:

War.....Pull out of Iraq, Afghanistan, spend the money on healthcare
Welfare Reform...the poor are either mentality ill, lazy, or just not driven enough so they take the easy road at McDonalds. Either way we should not enable them
Economic Recovery...let the banks fail, veto gramm-leach-bliley, and stop attempting to fund GDP with equity. Bring manufacturing back to the USA with tax incentives. If we stop funding wars we wont need the 300b in taxes businesses pay anyways.
Healthcare ...Reform it, reduce costs of medicine, and provide a public option that pays for itself. Meaning that the public option needs to be a for profit entity that is regulated by government.
Housing...let it reset to normal market prices would look like 10 years after pre-2000 prices. Meaning, add 3% every year to each house and reset the prices to that. If Obama wants to keep people in their homes, then have the banks refinance the current homeowners at 25-50% less than the current market rates.

"Welfare Reform…the poor are either mentality ill, lazy, or just not driven enough so they take the easy road at McDonalds. Either way we should not enable them"

Why do you care where and what they eat?

What is a "public option" and what does it mean? Can you tell me, and just how is it different than letting the already heavy handed Medical machine? Be sure to include just why an public option(what ever that is and means) will reduce costs.

"Meaning that the public option needs to be a for profit entity that is regulated by government."

Yeah let me know how that works out for you, send me a post card, I'll be in another country by then.

Do you really think the government will run a "FOR PROFIT" system any different than they run all hybrid agencies where city, county, state, and federal governments out source services to private companies?

I challenge you to give one example of private companies doing Government work that hasn't been wrought with some scandal or accusations of indiscretions in the last ten years.

The worst part of this model is elected officals that are interested in reform can't go after private companies because they were just doing their jobs, and some public official okeydoked every thing they did. So even though they get exposed they are rarely prosecuted. Where as an government employees can be called upon three administrations latter to account for discrepancies.

@4X,
"the beeps and squeeks" .. I had to laugh, and I'm sure you did too.

Yes, in my opinion you are both deep thinking conservatives. And I think that true conservatives never really "mesh" due to their independant thought process and personal moral anchor. I'd really enjoy an hour of debate with you guys at a Dennys over some coffee ... the personalitys and intellect would be good for conversation. Thats more-or-less what I meant.

TPB has never failed to support his view with thought and real world experience without any mumbo jumbo. I am sure you enjoy this banter as much as he. And you have proven yourself a very good writer and thinker ... so it's all good.

@Tenouncetrout

“Welfare Reform…the poor are either mentality ill, lazy, or just not driven enough so they take the easy road at McDonalds. Either way we should not enable them”

Why do you care where and what they eat?

I was referring to where they choose to work....most are minimum wage lifers.

“Meaning that the public option needs to be a for profit entity that is regulated by government.”

Yeah let me know how that works out for you, send me a post card, I’ll be in another country by then. Do you really think the government will run a “FOR PROFIT” system any different than they run all hybrid agencies where city, county, state, and federal governments out source services to private companies?

I never said it would work, I said thats the only way I would support a public option. There is too much waste in the not for profit sectors...CUT, CUT, CUT is my motto for these programs and REGULATE, REGULATE, REGULATE is my motto regarding for profit entities.

@BAP

Yes, in my opinion you are both deep thinking conservatives. And I think that true conservatives never really “mesh” due to their independant thought process and personal moral anchor. I’d really enjoy an hour of debate with you guys at a Dennys over some coffee … the personalitys and intellect would be good for conversation. Thats more-or-less what I meant.

I agree, except I also have a progressive side....which to me simply means that I want programs aimed at the betterment of our society that do not enable the poor to feed off the system and do not allow the rich to manipulate the poor.

TPB has never failed to support his view with thought and real world experience without any mumbo jumbo. I am sure you enjoy this banter as much as he. And you have proven yourself a very good writer and thinker … so it’s all good.

There is so much mumbo-jumbo there that I have a difficult time figuring out which direction he is going with his viewpoints. One moment, he believes in the public option the next he is saying the government cant run any of their programs successfully. Personally, I just think government needs to engage in some LEAN practices found at Toyota. We need to reduce waste, invest in programs that encourage growth of our citizens, and provide incentives to corporations to bring manufacturing back to the USA. Trout has a difficult time clearly articulating his views without going into the whole "George Bush held hands, Obama doesnt have a birth certificate, Clinton did not inhale" rhetoric.

After each and every statement, I keep asking him to stay with the facts. More teaching, less preaching...at this point I dont know if he is communist, socialist, conservative or liberal..I am confused.

"One moment, he believes in the public option "

Class have I ever eluded to the opinion that I support "The Public Option" I still can't get anyone to tell me just what in Fruck it means. I never partake in anything I don't understand and neither should a nation as a whole. (as it is now)

You guys bite every jargon and made up spare of the moment vernacular the Congress criters throws your way. Hell I bet most are just happy to have new buzz words to throw around in Monday morning meetings. These words get used with impunity on being called out on their meaning. Because it is just understood they sound cool but no one expects anybody to know what they mean.

Hence is our Government at work setting the standards for our work force and those who manage them.

In other words I have never supported "The public option" what ever in the hell it might mean.

"After each and every statement, I keep asking him to stay with the facts. More teaching, less preaching…at this point I dont know if he is communist, socialist, conservative or liberal..I am confused."

Then I must be on the right track to truly being an Independent. Surely all parties have some redeeming qualities. People should listen to the proposals and focus less on what affiliations are delivering them.

I sit party-less waiting for Washington and Reagan to reserect.

I was a young tike during those times...all I remember is my dad was working the oil fields in Texas.

Bap33 says

I sit party-less waiting for Washington and Reagan to reserect.

The Potomac will rise again!