patrick.net

> AmericanKulak

You are right! That must've been what "mostly writer" meant when he compared today's Russia to 1950's US (LOL).

Except for the poverty part. There's poverty and then there's poverty. I'm not talking about "I can't live on only the corn" type of poverty. I'm talking about "I don't have enough corn to feed my family" type of poverty.

richwicks says

Russia is INFINITELY improved over what it used to be. Vastly improved.

You know that how? Time to disclose your connections and drop the pretense of impartial reasoning (wink, wink) I do agree with you that roaming the streets of Moscow (or St. Peterburg, or Yekaterinburg, or Vladivostok) was fun when you had dollars in your pockets. Except for those damn papers which you had to carry with you just in case.

We can compare the notes, comrade.

mostly reader says

You are right! That must've been what "mostly writer" meant when he compared today's Russia to 1950's US (LOL).

I'm sorry my examples, particularly with the military draft and several of the largest cities and states in America imposing vaccine IDs to eat in restaurants, ruined your narrative.

And yes, there is half-starved poverty in America, mostly due to the Outsourcing of Jobs, the ensuing loss of housing value and breakup and families, complicated by an Addiction wave of Oxycontin AND Synthetic Opiates, both thanks to CHYna and Revolving Door Status Quo Corporate-Government Executives and Officials. Much of it is in and around what was once vibrant Middle America, Small Cities from Binghampton to Weirton to Akron to Saginaw.

AmericanKulak says

I'm sorry my examples, particularly with the military draft and several of the largest cities and states in America imposing vaccine IDs to eat in restaurants, ruined your narrative.

That wasn't much of a narrative. But I think that they really, REALLY, ruined the "mostly writer"'s comparison between todays Russia and US back then. See, he meant it in the most Russia-friendly way. And then there you come with your clarifications. I didn't think that I'd have to explain it, but they made his comparison not quite as flattering.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Russia is INFINITELY improved over what it used to be. Vastly improved.

You know that how?

I have Russian coworkers today. Those didn't exist in 1950 unless they were defectors.

Russia collapsed because it dumped all their resources into the military. The same thing will collapse the United States in time.

richwicks says

I have Russian coworkers today. Those didn't exist in 1950 unless they were defectors.

So, your knowledge of Russia today comes from your coworkers (plural). Is that your primary source? Had to confirm this because, you see, with all this confidence one could think that you are involved more directly. You also have Ukrainian coworkers I recall. Also plural. I hope that all these coworkers get along.

Do you trust them with everything that they say? What's their take on the current invasion?

mostly reader says

richwicks says

I have Russian coworkers today. Those didn't exist in 1950 unless they were defectors.

So, your knowledge of Russia today comes from your coworkers (plural). Is that your primary source? Had to confirm this because, you see, with all this confidence one could think that you are involved more directly.

I've had a couple. I had long conversations with Arsen about our propaganda. It's almost painful for me to have to talk to most Americans, because they have NO CLUE what is going on. These last two years has been a real wakeup call to me in that I can now see and understand just how much people are controlled by US propaganda. I had neighbors that were Russian. They were expats - they basically said "I'm not free in Russia" - they were young.

I know some people long for the old days of the USSR - it depended on where you were in that society. Certainly some don't.

mostly reader says

You also have Ukrainian coworkers I recall.

No, I had a former coworker that I was friends with that became an expatriot in Ukraine. The last time I communicated with him, somebody had either hacked into his Skype account, or stolen his laptop. I think he may be dead at this point. I have completely lost contact with him.

mostly reader says

Do you trust them with everything that they say? What's their take on the current invasion?

My point of view is what they say is their opinion. I don't necessarily have to know what is true, it's just their opinion, their viewpoint but I haven't discussed it with them.

Given the amount of hysteria and programming people accept, I don't want to draw attention to the fact they are Russian and I'm in Silicon Valley, people are supposed to be smart here, but they aren't. 90% of the public are drones. Even people that TRY to understand what is going on. I have a friend that sincerely believes that the reason the US went to war in Syria was because of the civil war there, and Europe was BEGGING the US to go in to stop the conflict. He read this in the Economist, there's the Alawites and Sunni (I believe). He's an MIT graduate, and he's this naive at 55 or whatever. Because he read this in the Economist, and it's not the same stuff he hears on TV he assumes it must be correct. He COULDN'T be buying propaganda..

I was talking to my cousin, and we broke up laughing when I told him this.

I know what my country is like, I understand the foreign policy of it. The US NEVER goes to war for a "humanitarian reason" ever. I don't always know all the reasons the US goes to a particular war, but I know they always lie about it. The reason they lie, is that if we knew the truth, it would appalling.

If you think the US government isn't doing cartwheels to see Ukraine getting invaded by Russia, you are DEAD WRONG. They want an enemy, they want to restart the Cold War. The war on terror was a bullshit war, and it's unwinnable (of course, that's the best kind because it goes on forever) but it's petering out. If the public is distracted by the evil man over there, we don't pay attention to the evil men here.

To our establishment, this is just a nice distraction.

Look at how dumb people are. Suddenly they are all humanitarians and so on. When RUSSIA bombs somebody that's BAAAAAAD, but the US has been doing it for years, even lying to start the wars. They care only about what the teeeeveeee and social media tells them to care about. They can't see the hypocrisy.

All wars are horrible. What drives me crazy about this, and with you in particular, is that you keep saying stuff like "well, Ukraine wouldn't be joining NATO anyhow" - well, if that's the true, that's part of the Russian PROPAGANDA to justify this war. Zelenskyy can take that way from Putin. You don't see this as a contradiction, IF Zelenskyy (or his handlers) don't want war.

The US has for 20 years, but in particular the last 5 been demonizing Russia. This was made 5 years ago:


original link

Our intelligence agencies for YEARS were directly accusing Russia, a nuclear super power, as having put in Trump to prevent him from doing ANY negotiation with Putin or have any deals or any agreements that would benefit Russia in any way. The US refuses to negotiate with Russia over ANYTHING. The Skripals weren't poisoned by the FSB, the story is ridiculous. Why the fuck are they doing this?

Don't bother switching to other topics (Intelligent Agencies, Skripals, etc.). As pointed out, this pattern of yours is well recognized and you won't be getting away with it here.

richwicks says

I have Russian coworkers today.

richwicks says

I've had a couple.

You "have" them or "you've had" them?

Your enthusiasm describing Russia today doesn't match familiarity with the subject that you chose to disclose (coworker hearsay). This is a mismatch. You are either stretching data points to fit your world view, or hiding something.

richwicks says

I don't want to draw attention to the fact they are Russian and I'm in Silicon Valley, people are supposed to be smart here, but they aren't.

This sentence doesn't make sense unless they are remote workers currently in Russia. Are they?

Your veneration of Russia can't be explained by coworker chit-chat alone. It implies either a more direct connection which you didn't mention, or a leap of judgement. Comment?

For those who say that rt.com or any Russian govt pnwed press agency is "far worse" than what the US has, you are wrong. Anybody who has to maintain an active business life and connections and thus with some exposure to "online news" or formerly deemed "business sites" such as LinkedIn knows it's as bad as Russian Pravda at the height of the cold war. Not a day goes by that some organization or expo isn't destroyed by claims of "!rayscysm!" and "!seschual harassment!" and shit is flung like goebbels would be proud of, with zero proof, by shady agent provocateurs or useful bipoczlgbtqxyz+---- wommynz tools. You'd be daft to run a small business these days which is not complete shut off from propaganda. There is no useful information anywhere in US news or business sites, it's all 100% propaganda. The one difference is that it's mostly government that writes that stuff for Russia while the US is using the tactics of employing crisis actors and agent provocateurs and big tech to do their dirty deeds. How do you think we got as far with codified racial discrimination (against asians and whites mostly) as we have today and edicts that force experimental deadly gene "therapies" into adults and kids bodies under threat of job loss? How many people have died from the forced jabs and even far more from actively withholding tried and proven antiviral and anti inflammatory drugs? 100s of thousands at the minimum! Where is the outrage? Please get a grip and start cleaning up your own country before !muh Russia! The new racists and anti-vaxxers du jour are Russian born citizens and those who dare to have a different opinion or question the narrative! Down with Emmanuel Goldstein! Hate!

mell says

For those who say that rt.com or any Russian govt pnwed press agency is "far worse" than what the US has, you are wrong.

Are you too comparing two variables while knowing only one of them?

mostly reader says

mell says

For those who say that rt.com or any Russian govt pnwed press agency is "far worse" than what the US has, you are wrong.

Are you too comparing two variables while knowing only one of them?

Just compare what the msm is claiming that Russian state sponsored "disinformation" is saying, take it at face value if you must, then compare it to what the msm and govt are saying here in the US about domestic and foreign issues. There is no difference. There isn't even any color or divide in the msm media on the big items. Maybe tucker, some say controlled opposition, who knows. But the rest march unisono to the drumbeat of the government orders and their big tech handlers. Ivermectin is dangerous horse paste but the "jabs" and ventilators save lives? Excuse me? Inflation is caused by putler and not by increasing the money supply via government spending?! Oil is expensive because of putler and not because we killed all pipelines and shoved "green energy" down people's throats?! Not a iota of a difference.

> mell

I'll be more specific. Couple of differences between US-style propaganda and it's Russian counterpart came to mind right away.

When US propaganda lies, they usually do it using one of the finer manipulation techniques. Such as getting things out of context, or lying by omission. I kinda went over that here - https://patrick.net/post/1344073&offset=40#comment-1826473 - with illustration on how "mostly writer" took a true fact and used it to create a lie. Same thing I observe in US-based propaganda: there's usually a true fact in the message, which then gets distorted into something different.

Russians are more flexible. They may just create a fake and run with it. Few popular ones that come to mind are "a little boy crucified by Ukro Nazis", "each UkroNazi was promised two slaves", "they killed all the bullfinches because bullfinches have red on their chests", etc, etc, etc. To be clear: I'm not making this up. This is what was actually discussed in Russian news and talk shows. The bigger lie, and the more visual it is, the better. Goebbels level. Then they take this fake and literally hammer it down people's heads by repeating it over and over. Over and over. Over and over. Over and over.

Then, there's quantity. They'd create many. Different people resonate to different messages. Something will stick.

Then, they use multiple channels much more efficiently than US propaganda does. Example: they control few notorious performers and artists, and push message through them. Not unsimilar to what Hollywood does, but more directly and on a different level yet again.

Example: there's this arguably most popular Russian band, "Leningrad". The leader of the band Shnurov is connected and has dipped into politics. He just created a new clip. The point of the clip is that Russians are now treated in Europe the same way as Jews in Germany in 1940. I.e. that there are "No Dogs and Russians" signs (that's literally what the song says), and that Russians must wear id-patches https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeIjDxbAZeM&source=patrick.net

Indoctrination in education - similar. Different kind of indoctrination and more aggressive, more powerful techniques.

I believe that they study propaganda techniques much better than we in US do.

I don't mind criticism of propaganda in US. I mind the comparison of which you have an opinion without knowing the other part.

mostly reader says

Example: there's this arguably most popular Russian band, "Leningrad". The leader of the band Shnurov is connected and has dipped into politics. He just created a new clip. The point of the clip is that Russians are now treated in Europe the same way as Jews in Germany in 1940. I.e. that there are "No Dogs and Russians" signs (that's literally what the song says), and that Russians must wear id-patches https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeIjDxbAZeM&source=patrick.net

Russians have had problems in the Baltic, including in areas where they are the majority or plurality over language and being put the on the bottom of civil civil jobs, reverse discrimination. This is for people who were not only born and raised in the Baltics, but their parents and perhaps grandparents as well. Japan with Korean/half-Korean level.

Facebook has allowed calls for violence against generic "Russians", something they (and the rest of the Media) not only did not do for Arabs during the GWOT but actively discouraged it. Same way they lie about Anti-Asian violence - a friend in NYC told me they ad they run is a Fat White Dude harassing an old Asian lady, we all know the Fat White Dude is happy to find a "Nike" Shoe for $15 in China Town or get his #7 with Egg Rolls instead of the Wonton Soup, and that the assaulter of Asians is a bit "Darker". That's part of propaganda.

> mell

mostly reader says

I.e. that there are "No Dogs and Russians" signs (that's literally what the song says), and that Russians must wear id-patches https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeIjDxbAZeM&source=patrick.net

I just clicked on my own link to verify something and noticed that the clip has English subtitles. Watch it! It's worth it. Just so you get vague idea about propaganda Russian style.

Most of the comments in this thread aren't about propaganda people have witnessed, but arguing in support of the propaganda when it's brought up. Seems like the point has been missed, or some people are so threatened by anything they believe being pointed out as propaganda, they have to lash out and turn the conversation into a soup of incoherence.

And since I don't want to contribute, here's an example of the most blatant propaganda I've ever seen:

When you enter a restaurant, wearing any random piece of cloth over your mouth and nose will protect you from disease. But that protection isn't necessary when you sit down at a table in the restaurant. The germs will completely avoid your table area until you have finished eating, drinking, and talking. And of course paid your check. Then the disease will again attack, so put your mask back on before leaving.

NuttBoxer says

When you enter a restaurant, wearing any random piece of cloth over your mouth and nose will protect you from disease. But that protection isn't necessary when you sit down at a table in the restaurant. The germs will completely avoid your table area until you have finished eating, drinking, and talking. And of course paid your check. Then the disease will again attack, so put your mask back on before leaving.

Mostly but not entirely true if you want to play devil's advocate. The idea behind this is that you socialize with handpicked friends you either deem safe or worthy to get infected by, while when you walk around passing strangers amd other tables you would want to minimize germ exchange. It's still stupid as fuck but is based on the idea of social distancing with a small party of "vetted" people at the table and wearing a mask among strangers.

So the germs only live in our mouths and nose, and the random piece of cloth guarantees they stay there? The propaganda angles here are endless.

NuttBoxer says

So the germs only live in our mouths and nose, and the random piece of cloth guarantees they stay there? The propaganda angles here are endless.

It appears that you need to be enlightened on very basic stuff.

Virus is indeed smaller than openings in a mask. Which is why we have that cute meme with one person wearing a mask and another person building a wire fence against mosquitos, with implication that they are equally likely to succeed. The meme authors apparently didn't realize that virus doesn't get transmitted in isolation. It gets spread within droplets of bodily fluids. And those droplets are for the most part greater in size than openings in the mask, and may be stopped. Then of course there's matter of statistics and other parameters, but there's no doubt that in a lab-controlled environment exposure of a person wearing a mask is lesser than the one who isn't, and significantly so.

See, real reason to be anti-mask is that they cause social and psychological issues, and possibly health issues related to respiratory conditions or environments with high performance demands. Those tradeoffs are no longer justified (not sure if they ever were).

NuttBoxer says

So the germs only live in our mouths and nose, and the random piece of cloth guarantees they stay there? The propaganda angles here are endless.

It's practically impossible to reduce exposure since most do everything wrong anyways, but if n95 and up and worn correctly and with tables enough apart and proper ventilation it may make a difference. Again, practically useless though. But I agree that this is part of propaganda to divide. If you're afraid of life then stay home, order everything online and netfucks and chill. Don't ruin life for others, but propaganda is always aimed at dividing people

I! HATE! THE! FUCKING! MASKS!

mostly reader says

Virus is indeed smaller than openings in a mask. Which is why we have that cute meme with one person wearing a mask and another person building a wire fence against mosquitos, with implication that they are equally likely to succeed. The meme authors apparently didn't realize that virus doesn't get transmitted in isolation. It gets spread within droplets of bodily fluids. And those droplets are for the most part greater in size than openings in the mask, and may be stopped. Then of course there's matter of statistics and other parameters, but there's no doubt that in a lab-controlled environment exposure of a person wearing a mask is lesser than the one who isn't, and significantly so.

The Masks Don't Fucking Work.

We had good reason to suspect the Masks Didn't Fucking Work to begin with: Almost every study and survey of mask wearing, much of it recent and with other respiratory viruses in crowded Asian cities, showed a statistically insignificant relationship between mask wearing and infection.

In fact, Jan-Mar 2020, there were a shitload of articles downplaying the wearing of masks, and insinuating that it was "Anti-Asian" to boot.

Now we KNOW the masks don't fucking work, the empirical data is overwhelming both inside and among various countries with various policies. Neither did lockdowns.

We also KNOW the vaccine is fucking dangerous for some, particularly kids, far outweighing the benefits of having them.

Frankly, not putting a freeze on vaccines to those under 30 and healthy - staring Yesterday - is irresponsible and dangerous.

> AmericanKulak
You should understand the difference between these 2 statements:
1) Masks don't work
and
2) "In fact, Jan-Mar 2020, there were a shitload of articles downplaying the wearing of masks"

The second one seems consistent with my message. You should understand why.

The first one isn't, and from what I know it's just false.

You crumbled them both into one narrative.

Unless you have a reasonable resource to show that exposure in same controlled environment is the same. Do you? I doubt it.

mostly reader says

Unless you have a reasonable resource to show that exposure in same controlled environment is the same. Do you? I doubt it.

Public health doesn't take place in a controlled test environment.

We have real life, real world data that trumps controlled studies.

My view is the correct view, and has been offered endlessly on this site, esp. by Patrick and others, so I await your abundant evidence that Mask Wearing reduced COVID transmission outside of the Margin of Error consistently. One major problem for you will be to explain why US states with stricter lockdown and mask rules, that lasted far longer, had death rates worse than states that had lighter rules and ended them sooner. NY vs. FL is one. The latter having a higher percentage of aged people to boot.

AmericanKulak says

We have real life, real world data that trumps controlled studies.

Show them.
Keep in mind that I'll drill into other variables of a hypothetical study, just to be sure that there's no bias (*)

AmericanKulak says

My view is the correct view

What exactly is your view? That mask or no mask, exposure to self and to those around is the same? Are we clear on that?

* Note: I at this time am an anti-mask person

mostly reader says

AmericanKulak says

We have real life, real world data that trumps controlled studies.

Show them.
Keep in mind that I'll drill into other variables of a hypothetical study, just to be sure that there's no bias (*)

AmericanKulak says

My view is the correct view

What exactly is your view? That mask or no mask, exposure to self and to those around is the same? Are we clear on that?

* Note: I at this time am an anti-mask person

Nope: the burden of proof is on you. You're making the extraordinary claim, so pony up the extraordinary data.


Cloth Masks, don't work - though we knew this in Early 2020.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/experts-warn-that-cloth-masks-don-t-work-again-recommend-tests/ar-AAS3Wmn?source=patrick.net
https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/bangladesh-study-proves-masks-dont?s=r

https://dossier.substack.com/p/tragic-shooting-of-american-journalist?s=r&source=patrick.net

There’s just one big problem with that narrative.

All of the available evidence we have points to the Ukrainians, not the Russians, being responsible for the tragic shooting of Renaud.

This morning, Renaud and his crew, which had been contracted with Time Magazine, were traveling through the outskirts of Kiev, Ukraine’s capital city, and on their way to document the plight of the refugee situation. ...

But since the initial Ukrainian PR campaign, compelling evidence, in addition to multiple eyewitness testimony, has emerged to tell a very different story of the day’s events.

The Real Story

Shortly after the incident occurred, a video was posted to social media, with Renaud’s body on display in the background. In the video (CONTENT WARNING), a Ukrainian soldier says the shooting occurred in the settlement of Romanovka. ...

The location of the incident is very significant, because it established that the shooting took place well within a swath of territory that remains within the lines controlled by Ukrainian forces. Now, it’s certainly possible that troop movements shifted in those early hours, but there is no documented evidence of Russian troops being anywhere near the crime scene, before during, or after the incident. The Russians have in recent days repeatedly shelled the entire area, but Renaud was killed by nearby gunfire. ...

Another major piece of information came out earlier this evening, when The New York Times confirmed that the incident occurred at a Ukrainian checkpoint. ...

Arrendondo, who is by far our most reliable source for this incident, makes it clear that the shooting came from the direction of the checkpoint. And The New York Times, backed by other sources, have established the area as a Ukrainian checkpoint. And in addition to that, the most recent maps of troop positions show the scene of the crime as an area that remains controlled by Ukrainian forces.

In all likelihood, Brent Renaud was killed by Ukrainian forces. And instead of taking responsibility for the tragic shooting, the Ukrainians used Renaud’s death as an instrument to advance a propaganda campaign against their enemy.

AmericanKulak says

Nope: the burden of proof is on you.

Fare enough. Pick one.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-72798-7?source=patrick.net
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abd3083?source=patrick.net - kinda watered-down for easier consumption
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.0c07291?source=patrick.net - this one is more specific towards mask shapes and diameters

AmericanKulak says

Cloth Masks, don't work - though we knew this in Early 2020. https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/experts-warn-that-cloth-masks-don-t-work-again-recommend-tests/ar-AAS3Wmn

I ask for a study and you point me to msn site which refers to experts?? WTF??? Are we seriously considering "experts" now, the same experts who discredited themselves time and over again? And you refer me to MSN to boot???

There are 2 parts to the point:
1) Masks indeed work in lab environment
2) Life is not lab environment.

You fail to understand that the 2 parts may both be valid and say stupid shit.

https://thegoodcitizen.substack.com/p/ukrainian-white-helmets?s=r&source=patrick.net

The latest maternity hospital “Russian Bombing” in Mariupol has a lot of the same staged appearances of the Syrian war propaganda. A bomb crater in the middle of the square. Crisis actors looking at the cameras and playing their roles. There was video of buckets of fake blood inside the hospital and later Russian soldiers who overtook that position showed Ukrainian forces had used the hospital to stash armaments.

mostly reader says

but there's no doubt that in a lab-controlled environment exposure of a person wearing a mask is lesser than the one who isn't, and significantly so.

So you've been to lab controlled restaurants?

mostly reader says

and possibly health issues related to respiratory conditions or environments with high performance demands.

You breathe your own CO2 all day, possible is an understatement. The first thing I heard about, second hand, but related by someone I trust. People where coming in with a significant increase in mouth diseases and cavities. Second thing is again second hand, but family, so I trust them. Boyfriend got a blood test, and had significant increase in CO2 levels in his blood. Anyone relying on a mask to keep them healthy is already sick, and scared.

Patrick says

Another major piece of information came out earlier this evening, when The New York Times confirmed that the incident occurred at a Ukrainian checkpoint. ...

@Patrick

You are copy/pasting selectively. Here's an important bit:

“We crossed the checkpoint and they started shooting at us,” Arrendondo started. “So the driver turned around, and they kept shooting at us … I saw him being shot in the neck, and we got split, and I got pulled into the … ambulance, I don’t know.”

From this, it seems to me that they CROSSED the checkpoint, at which point they were shot at, at which point they TURNED AROUND. (back towards the checkpoint, I assume, which rules out the possibility that the checkpoint was shooting at them)

This makes it look like they weren't shot at from the checkpoint. On the contrary to what this "dossier" guy on substack says.

Unless I'm missing something, WTF? And WTF is this dossier.substack guy who can't put 2 and 2 together?

NuttBoxer says

So you've been to lab controlled restaurants?

I made it abundantly, ABUNDANTLY clear that I understand the difference between lab and real life and that my reasoning factors it in.

Are you saying that you haven't seen it? Or that you didn't get it?

You'll see that the article says that the Russians were 2km away from that Ukrainian checkpoint. Does it say how far they drove after the checkpoint?

Patrick says

You'll see that the article says that the Russians were 2km away from that Ukrainian checkpoint.

The map shows 2km from the main forces. "The map" and "main forces" are important bits. In dynamic situation, it doesn't mean much.

But the fact that they turned around back towards the checkpoint means loads. Unless other info becomes available, I think that it seals the case. Again, who's this dossier.substack guy? He himself says that this comment about turning around is "the most important piece of testimony". Not realizing that it destroys his narrative instead of supporting it?

mell says

but if n95 and up and worn correctly and with tables enough apart and proper ventilation it may make a difference.

Unless it hermetically seals your face, it won't. You'd require a full hazmat suit all the time. The only exception would be if you had a laboratory you could go to, you could remove it then, after proper decontamination. Because what was released was a spike cell, and it attached to a very common form of the flu, it didn't matter. In a real pandemic, you'd see people in those N95's laying dead in the streets.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/03/update-american-reporter-brent-renaud-killed-ukrainian-checkpoint-behind-russian-front-likely-friendly-fire-incident/?source=patrick.net

Renaud was being shot at, turned around and continued to be shot at from the direction of the checkpoint.

Patrick says

Renaud was being shot at, turned around and continued to be shot at from the direction of the checkpoint.

gatewaypundit says that, but they are referring to dossier.substack Who in turn refers to witness testimony. But I don't see that witness testimony supports that. The witness uses "they" which makes it ambiguous. Then, turning car around takes time and makes it a sitting duck, that's not something you'd do to get closer to the side that's shooting at you. Not saying that it didn't happen, saying that the evidence that has been revealed so far doesn't support it.