patrick.net

WookieMan says

$34k in income tax and property tax is more common then you would think in IL

I know nothing about Illinois. Only been there once in Chicago. Was really impressed that people could cross the street anywhere. It might not be a big deal to everyone, but in Los Angeles police chases us down to ticket us for jaywalking. They are tax collectors here. It's insane how little right people have in CA.

I can tell you that in CA high taxes are not uncommon either. Our state taxes are high (our governor thinks I'm rich, and we are not). There are now sales taxes that constantly go up, because it's easier to pass those by politicians. Our only savior is small property taxes, simply because we live in a small place we bought a while ago. Some of my clients they bought at the height of the boom or near it, we are talking anywhere from 650k to 1M price tags. Those come with huge property tax bills. They for sure did not get tax cuts.

But that's CA fault, we as people allow government to raise taxes on us and squeeze us more every year, of course CA will have disadvantages. Liberal governments always lead to failure. Here in CA liberal government is way too liberal with this whole "equality" horse-shit, where they just pull everyone down to lowest common denominator.

So I set this up for a reason, a long play so to say. It took a while, but someone FINALLY posted to a link or evidence to their tax situation. Pretty simple stuff really. Reading comprehension seems to be a thing here today. If you can't catch this, then some people aren't able to comprehend the details of the tax code. I tossed this on the table and the person that is talking about reading comprehension doesn't even catch it. Thanks for proving my point brah and I guess your own point. Read the tax code my friend. Learn it.

WookieMan says

So I'm similar to the table I posted earlier with the $24k standard deduction, reducing my taxable income $24k and therefore savings is about $5k as well.

WookieMan says

By my estimation this tax "cut" will take about $2k out of my pocket, not a savings (this is admittedly my own tax situation).

It took damn near 80 comments, but my point finally is proven. You can't just throw out random comments about tax savings without backing it up with actual data or links. Talking points don't work, sorry. You can't claim reading comprehension and COMPLETELY miss the juicy bait I tossed out there for you. Good luck in your future endeavors.

FortWayne says

But that's CA fault, we as people allow government to raise taxes on us and squeeze us more every year, of course CA will have disadvantages. Liberal governments always lead to failure

One of my main points in my comments here. Everyone will likely get a cut in some form or another, great. This was a kick in the nuts to high property and income tax states. There's no disputing this. As I've said, it's one of the most brilliant political strategies by a political party that I've seen. High income Democrats, in blue state are going to be PISSED when they do their taxes the next two years. Some will blame it on Trump, many will wake up and realize their state taxes the fuck out of them.

CA won't be in play, but in 2020, assuming most republicans don't move, IL could turn red. Not predicting that, but we have a lot of Dems here in IL in some uppity areas that are going to get wang whipped this time next year on taxes.

FortWayne says

In CA that’s barely middle class these days sadly due to Democrat liberal policies of inflation.

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

WookieMan says

Not sure if this is sarcasm.

I have a high income. Well above $250K.

True dat. I make well into the 300s as the sole provider for a family of 4, and I feel middle class. I have no idea how these people afford these cars, houses and vacations, and yet still save for retirement and kids' college. Fuck CA.

Sniper says

WookieMan says

$9k extra from the standard deduction is not literally a $9k savings as we've heard here

That's because you don't understand the Schedule A, as been pointed out above.

You are free to post your schedule a any time and show us exaclty how you come up with your numbers. We will be waiting, and waiting, and waiting.

bob2356 says

We will be waiting, and waiting, and waiting.

You guys all know the post was about raises, not tax cuts right? So you are all taking a tax cut which is borrowing money against the future to put into your pockets now and calling it savings. Perfect.

Sniper says

bob2356 says

We will be waiting, and waiting, and waiting.

Can't back up your numbers again I see.

bob2356 says

You guys all know the post was about raises, not tax cuts right? So you are all taking a tax cut which is borrowing money against the future to put into your pockets now and calling it savings. Perfect.

I know. Outrageous claims were being thrown out about how much money people would be saving with the tax cuts. So I wanted to address it. Specifically some users in CA and NJ with some of the highest income and property taxes in the country. Then not understanding what a deduction actually is. Like itemizing $15k in one year and then using the new standard deduction of $24k and that is a $9k/yr "savings" or something like that. Ha!

Come to think of it, itemizing only $15k is kind of a joke in NJ. You'd have to be making like $75k and living in a 1 bed condo to only hit that amount, even without mortgage interest. That speaks volumes now that I think about it.

I would like to see some data and numbers on some of the claims. Unfortunately it won't happen. I can only see the quotes now, so apparently memes are a good argument now? I guess I shouldn't have expected much.

It's a genius move to pressure flip from Federal Taxation to State Taxation.

People are now Saying "Jesus, my state income tax is all fucked up. In fact, the way everything is handled in my Deep Blue, Hard Left State is fucked up. All this money and there are potholes everywhere, double dip pensions, etc. etc."

TwoScoopsPlissken says

It's a genius move to pressure flip from Federal Taxation to State Taxation.

People are now Saying "Jesus, my state income tax is all fucked up. In fact, the way everything is handled in my Deep Blue, Hard Left State is fucked up. All this money and there are potholes everywhere, double dip pensions, etc. etc."

This has been one of my main points as well. It's fallen on deaf ears unfortunately for some in this thread. Hope they enjoy their claimed "savings" come this time next year. They're going to be disappointed and will use semantics to somehow try and talk their way out of being wrong on a topic.

IL is already trying to work around the SALT cap by creating a form of non-profit to pay things into. How about you just fucking lower some taxes or get the pension shit storm under control?

Sniper says

Reading Comprehension?

Lol! $15k itemized DEDUCTION vs $24k standard DEDUCTION = $9k savings? Just because. Enjoy the 500 bucks "savings" that are somehow $9k. Semantics. Don't. Work. When. There. Are. Facts.

IL is simply horrible., Take this beautiful house which just sold for 375k-beautiful . Why is it so low-who will buy with a 22k a year tax burden? No way to predict how high they will still go.
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2321-Steeple-Chase-Cir-W_Libertyville_IL_60048_M80808-72622


Now with federal tax cuts-this poor sap who owns this house will get hit every which way-especially if he is making a decent income and/or wifey makes alot.

This tax cut will hit the upper middle income and lower rich. Richie rich will not care. But that is where it will hurt most-they may finally wake up and demand accountability.

lostand confused says

IL is simply horrible., Take this beautiful house which just sold for 375k-beautiful . Why is it so low-who will buy with a 22k a year tax burden? No way to predict how high they will still go.
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2321-Steeple-Chase-Cir-W_Libertyville_IL_60048_M80808-72622

I'm quite familiar with that area and that house is ridiculously overtaxed if that is real. A $400K house in Libertyville is typically $10K property taxes.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Libertyville-IL/house_type/4835535_zpid/32492_rid/3-_beds/2-_baths/250000-600000_price/987-2368_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/42.338594,-87.917619,42.303626,-87.976241_rect/13_zm/

There's something weird about the neighborhood that the steeple chase house is in.

lostand confused says

This tax cut will hit the upper middle income and lower rich. Richie rich will not care. But that is where it will hurt most-they may finally wake up and demand accountability.

Agreed. They are going to wonder why their taxes went up to support multi millionaires and billionaires. And they're going to place the blame on Republicans, where it belongs.

LeonDurham says

I'm quite familiar with that area and that house is ridiculously overtaxed if that is real. A $400K house in Libertyville is typically $10K property taxes.

HI joey/tatupu. 10k is way too high -why do you think 10k is reasonable-when in most areas in this country-equivalent would be much less. In CA of all places, you would pay about 4k for a 400k house and it is fixed-not keep going up for ever.

LeonDurham says

Agreed. They are going to wonder why their taxes went up to support multi millionaires and billionaires. And they're going to place the blame on Republicans, where it belongs.

Nope. My point is millionares and billionares will not feel the pinch-their proeprty tax bill is a drop in the bucket when compared to their income. To the upper middle class, they will realize how much they have been paying to the greedy democrats and public unions. Especially since IL is looking to increase tax even more-thought he republicans have united and stalled it for now. how much is enough before you start looking for cuts? people like me were dmeocrats once-like Churchill said if you are not a democrat in your youth, you have no heart and if you are not a republican as you age, you have no brain.

LeonDurham says

A $400K house in Libertyville is typically $10K property taxes.

I don't care to share my location in the Chicagoland area due to sociopaths on the internet. While closer to $10k vs. $22k, most $400k houses near me are about $14-15k/yr. While I'm jaded and know many people paying this and much more, it's not sustainable.

LeonDurham says

Agreed. They are going to wonder why their taxes went up to support multi millionaires and billionaires. And they're going to place the blame on Republicans, where it belongs.

I kind of agree with your theory. But in practice, the majority in IL is Dem. Specifically in these really high tax areas. A Republican getting screwed by the SALT cap is going to stay Republican, right? I think we can all agree that would be true. If you take 100 Dems, I'd venture to guess the new tax plan will piss 10-20% of them off and might wake them up to the unsustainable. It's not just property taxes either. We only had half a year with the higher income tax. Drop a full year now with the new rate on a $200k family income and people then start questioning that.

While it won't influence these 2018 midterms, it really was a brilliant idea, politically speaking. While I'll still get a cut, it would be less then someone else in another state making the same income. So that pisses me off to some extent. Someone in the $400k income range with a $25k property tax bill & almost $20k in income taxes might actually be pissed enough to vote differently. Those people also influence their lesser peers. And at a bare minimum they'll question their local property taxes.

Think about the scenario above. $25k + $20k = $45k But you can only deduct $10k now. In the previous tax plan there's $21k of income they could have eliminated paying taxes on. Even with the new lower brackets, that couple is paying 32% on that income. Where in the past they wouldn't pay anything. I'm not even accounting for mortgage interest, which they would have to have at LEAST $14k (which isn't much of course) of to even have it make sense to not use the new standard deduction. Think about it, these people would be writing off an additional $30-40k above the new standard deduction likely and now they can't. So that gets taxed at 32%

If this doesn't flip influential people with money at the voting booth, worst case is it results in lower property or income taxes. Which for certain areas could be a bigger savings then the tax cut.

lostand confused says

HI joey/tatupu. 10k is way too high -why do you think 10k is reasonable-when in most areas in this country-equivalent would be much less. In CA of all places, you would pay about 4k for a 400k house and it is fixed-not keep going up for ever.

I agree $10K is too high. Just pointing out that $22K is not indicative of what 99+% of the people pay on a $375K house in IL.

lostand confused says

To the upper middle class, they will realize how much they have been paying to the greedy democrats and public unions.

I consider myself upper middle class and I would MUCH, MUCH, MUCH rather pay my taxes to support teachers than pay my taxes to support multi billionaires.

If you want cuts to property taxes, you need to vote for different people at the local level. The State doesn't set property taxes. Place your blame where it belongs.

LeonDurham says

taxes to support teachers

Mostly, to support police being able to retire at 50. Teachers are often just a smokescreen, and even in their case, highest salaries/pensions go to useless bureaucrats.

WookieMan says

But in practice, the majority in IL is Dem

The thing to remember is that even IL which everyone considers a Dem state, it's typically ~55/45 Dem/Rep. And if you take only the people that would be hit by the SALT changes, I bet it turns into a 55/45 Rep/Dem mix. It will be more Reps than Dems, even in a Dem state like IL.

LeonDurham says

I agree $10K is too high. Just pointing out that $22K is not indicative of what 99+% of the people pay on a $375K house in I

Show me the stats then. Like wookieman says it is closer to 14-15k

LeonDurham says

I consider myself upper middle class and I would MUCH, MUCH, MUCH rather pay my taxes to support teachers than pay my taxes to support multi billionaires.

If you want cuts to property taxes, you need to vote for different people at the local level. The State doesn't set property taxes. Place your blame where it belongs.

We have been through this carousel how many times? The state does not let local areas to get rid of pensions,. The state voted into the constitution that any pension obligations can never be changed. DEmocrats are the one still holding on to that potion and unwilling to change. Staes like MI have gone away from pensions. If the state allows villages and towns to set their own comp and offer pay without pensions-then they cna-but they are not allowed to. recently one town tried to make their area right to work and the state government tried to pass a lw to make it a misdeamoner I think. That is the democrats for you-they will jail you for that-thank God for the republicans.

Oh your tax is not going to teachers-recently a school administrator in Crystal lake, IL got the salary raised-guess how much-190k a year. Then there is the city administrators/village managers making 300k and their staff and the 7,000 units of government in IL-that si where your money is going to-not teachers.

drB6 says

LeonDurham says

taxes to support teachers

Mostly, to support police being able to retire at 50. Teachers are often just a smokescreen, and even in their case, highest salaries/pensions go to useless bureaucrats.

Teachers in CA make 6 figures and have a pension. Retire at 65 I think?
Police in CA make 6 figures w/ pension, retire at 55. They also have a DROP program which lets them collect both salary and pension while not working last 5 years (from 50 to 55).
Firefighters = police benefits.

That's just some of what we are paying for in CA with our taxes. While people who are paying those taxes, don't have any retirement benefits. Democrats sure got it going for themselves.

All I know for sure is that I have paid through the butt under Obama era taxes. Even this April was bad news(owe $2k), albeit less bad than last year due to me cutting my withholdings to practically nothing even though I have a family of five to support.

Hoping for a better April under the Trump tax system next year! I do love me the child credits and enhanced daycare credits, which make having a family more affordable.

lostand confused says

Show me the stats then. Like wookieman says it is closer to 14-15k

Sure. Here you go.

http://www.tax-rates.org/propertytax.php?state=illinois

Lake County, IL is highest property tax county at 2.19% of home value. For a $400K house, that gives ~$8800/year.

lostand confused says

We have been through this carousel how many times? The state does not let local areas to get rid of pensions,. The state voted into the constitution that any pension obligations can never be changed. DEmocrats are the one still holding on to that potion and unwilling to change.

Yes, we have but I cannot let misinformation stand no matter how many times it is posted. It was the IL Supreme Court that decided it was against the law to change the rules on peoples' pensions.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/ct-illinois-pension-law-court-ruling-20150508-story.html

"The Illinois Supreme Court on Friday unanimously ruled unconstitutional a landmark state pension law that aimed to scale back government worker benefits to erase a massive $105 billion retirement system debt, sending lawmakers and the new governor back to the negotiating table to try to solve the pressing financial issue.
The ruling also reverberated at City Hall, imperiling a similar law Mayor Rahm Emanuel pushed through to shore up two of the four city worker retirement funds and making it more difficult for him to find fixes for police, fire and teacher pension funds that are short billions of dollars.
At issue was a December 2013 state law signed by then-Democratic Gov. Pat Quinn that stopped automatic, compounded yearly cost-of-living increases for retirees, extended retirement ages for current state workers and limited the amount of salary used to calculate pension benefits."

A Democratic Governor and Democratic Mayor of Chicago were FOR pension reform. I know this kills the narrative that conservatives like to spew, but facts are facts.

lostand confused says

Oh your tax is not going to teachers-recently a school administrator in Crystal lake, IL got the salary raised-guess how much-190k a year. Then there is the city administrators/village managers making 300k and their staff and the 7,000 units of government in IL-that si where your money is going to-not teachers.

Yes, school administration is bloated and overpaid. That's why you need to pay attention and vote for the right candidates for local elections like school board, etc. Stop complaining about your State politicians who have NOTHING to do with school administration salaries.

LeonDurham says

Yes, we have but I cannot let misinformation stand no matter how many times it is posted. It was the IL Supreme Court that decided it was against the law to change the rules on peoples' pensions

Oh please. The democrats can fix this crisis in afew months. The reason the court voted int hatw at, was because the constitution was changed to forbid any changes for pensions for public thugs. Now if the democrats decided to support changing the cosntitiution -all it need s is a supermajority vote . All repubs will more or elss support-it needs democrats to vote. Then it goes on ballot and hey presto-the constitution is amended. The governor does not have to sign. You can fix this mess ina few months-if the democrats want to deal-but they don't and so the whole state suffers-republcians will sign off on pensions.

But the democrats refuse to sign and hold them hostage.

LeonDurham says

Yes, school administration is bloated and overpaid

Then stop saying tax money si going mainly to teachers.Democrat propaganda.

FortWayne says

Teachers in CA make 6 figures and have a pension. Retire at 65 I think?

Do not know about CA, but here in TX school administrators are the ones raking in $$$ and benefits.

LeonDurham says

A Democratic Governor and Democratic Mayor of Chicago were FOR pension reform. I know this kills the narrative that conservatives like to spew, but facts are facts.

This is true. But when are these leaders going to push for a constitutional amendment? That's what it's going to take to change the situation. They know it too. Emanuel is one of the top 3 influential people that would have to push for it or Chicago is doomed. I get he passed some reform measures, but he knew that the supreme court wasn't going to take it. It was just publicity to say he tried and he can pass the blame onto someone else. That's how its always worked in IL. Just keep kicking the can. Republican governors have done it to keep their jobs and with almost 90% certainty, IL Dems have always kicked the can.

And I honestly do hate to see anyone get cut out of something they were promised. While the promise wasn't realistic, it is what it is. The path forward is a constitutional amendment. And I know the public service sector pays state income taxes. But as long as they're allowed unsustainable pensions, they're not paying their fair share even though it looks that way with income taxes. They're getting a benefit the private sector isn't entitled to, while we're still forced to pay 12% between employee and employer to get a pitiful income from SS in our mid 60's AND still having to fund a 401K probably 10% to match public service retirement income at 55-60.

lostand confused says

Oh please. The democrats can fix this crisis in afew months

It's really not easy.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20140716/NEWS02/140719888/amending-the-illinois-constitution-a-tough-path-for-pension-reform

"Even so, amending the constitution would not be easy, to say the least, given recent history and the state's current political climate. It would need approval by a three-fifths vote in both the Illinois House and Senate. That's just to put a proposed amendment on the ballot, where it would need 60 percent of those voting on the issue to be approved."

"But it can't be done quickly. The Illinois Constitution requires a six-month waiting period before a proposed amendment can be placed on the ballot, so November 2016 is the soonest it could be put up for a vote. Meanwhile, the statewide pension law changes have been stayed, keeping benefits and contributions and inflation adjustments all in place.
Two years ago, a relatively innocuous constitutional amendment that would have required supermajority approval by the state Legislature and municipalities to increase pension benefits was pushed through the Legislature by House Speaker Michael Madigan.
Widely panned as a meaningless measure that would not reduce the state's pension debt, it passed the House unanimously, with only two dissenting votes in the Senate. But only 56 percent of voters approved, falling short of the supermajority needed.

Once again, another pension reform attempt by DEMOCRATIC Mike Madigan failed. This time, because VOTERS didn't support it.

Again, the narrative that Dems are against pension reform is simply a lie.

LeonDurham says

Widely panned as a meaningless measure that would not reduce the state's pension debt, it passed the House unanimously, with only two dissenting votes in the Senate. But only 56 percent of voters approved, falling short of the supermajority needed

Make a constitutional amendment to get rid of the supermajority. The people elected were voted in by those same people that will vote on the amendment at the polls. There's no need to have the supermajority for a constitutional amendment. Then you get the pension reform amendment on the ballot a year later or whenever.

There's a way to do this, just not the will. Madigan knew the voters wouldn't support it, at least enough to get it passed. He can say he tried. Actually trying would be making it easier to pass a constitutional amendment and get rid of the supermajority. He knew that. People will just vote yes for something like that (dumping supermajority). But he knows getting 50% of voters onboard for pension reform is realistic (heck it would have passed dumping the supermajority) so they didn't take the route needed to fix our states problems.

IL politicians love to say I tried all the time to cover their asses. At some point trying ain't cutting it. Get. Something. DONE.

WookieMan says

There's a way to do this, just not the will. Madigan knew the voters wouldn't support it, at least enough to get it passed. He can say he tried. Actually trying would be making it easier to pass a constitutional amendment and get rid of the supermajority. He knew that. People will just vote yes for something like that (dumping supermajority). But he knows getting 50% of voters onboard for pension reform is realistic (heck it would have passed dumping the supermajority) so they didn't take the route needed to fix our states problems.

Maybe, but I sure as heck wouldn't vote to make it easier for a Constitutional Amendment to pass without voter approval. I think that would have a really hard time passing.

lostand confused says

The reason the court voted int hatw at, was because the constitution was changed to forbid any changes for pensions for public thugs

Do you have a source for that? I've never seen any evidence of such an Amendment-what year did it pass?

LeonDurham says

lostand confused says

The reason the court voted int hatw at, was because the constitution was changed to forbid any changes for pensions for public thugs

Do you have a source for that? I've never seen any evidence of such an Amendment-what year did it pass?

Here is the paragraph from the constitution in the Chicago tribune.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/letters/ct-illinois-constitution-judge-pension-20180202-story.html

This is why the reform by rahm and Quinn were bogus-they knew the law would not hold muster, because the constitution forbids any changes. At that time Quinn was under pressure and so the slimeballs worked on that law. It does not matter what law passes-the courts have no choice but to strike down any pension reductions. The dem slimeballs know that and hoodwinked the voters.

Real reform would be to amend the cosntituion to remove the language-the only ones needed are the democrats-they refuse to amend the constitution. Repubs will trip over themselves to sign it. I have attended several local dem townhalls to ask about this in particular and all are prepared with some cockymane answer-but not one has committed to make the constitutional change. if they do the pension crisis can be solved very quickly. Now this clause wa sput in place in the 1970s, so not new-but it ahs to go for any meaningful pension reform.

WookieMan says

FortWayne says

But that's CA fault, we as people allow government to raise taxes on us and squeeze us more every year, of course CA will have disadvantages. Liberal governments always lead to failure

One of my main points in my comments here. Everyone will likely get a cut in some form or another, great. This was a kick in the nuts to high property and income tax states. There's no disputing this. As I've said, it's one of the most brilliant political strategies by a political party that I've seen. High income Democrats, in blue state are going to be PISSED when they do their taxes the next two years. Some will blame it on Trump, many will wake up and realize their state taxes the fuck out of them.

CA won't be in play, but in 2020, assuming most republicans don't move, IL could turn red. Not predicting that, but we have a lot of Dems here in IL in some uppity areas that are going ...

So it's the CA Dems fault that Trump raised everyone's taxes. Pathetic politicizing. No wonder it took 80 comments to make you happy. I love how every economic issue in the country today can be traced to CA.

Sniper says

bob2356 says

You are free to post your schedule a any time and show us exaclty how you come up with your numbers.

Look at that, we have another brain surgeon here:

Still waiting to see your numbers. and waiting, and waiting, and waiting.

WookieMan says

Come to think of it, itemizing only $15k is kind of a joke in NJ. You'd have to be making like $75k and living in a 1 bed condo to only hit that amount, even without mortgage interest. That speaks volumes now that I think about it.

Funny I just did taxes for my mother who owns a 4 bedroom house in central jersey and coulldn't come up with anywhere near 15k. Essex, Bergan, and Union counties aren't the entire state.

RafiMaas says

Actually....
If you file form 1040 and your line 44 (taxable income) was exactly $200,000, then in 2017 you would owe $42,869 and if in 2018 tax year you hit line 44 at exactly $200,000 you would owe the IRS $36,578 a difference of $6,291 not $8,000.

That's married filing jointly. Singles are going to be more like 4k. I guess the "middle class" 200k taxable people are going to be disappointed if they are using the alternative math seen frequently here on patnet. .

bob2356 says

Funny I just did taxes for my mother who owns a 4 bedroom house in central jersey and coulldn't come up with anywhere near 15k. Essex, Bergan, and Union counties aren't the entire state.

I hear you. My comment wasn't about your mom though. It was involving another making a claim about X amount of savings due to the new tax cuts, that would be impossible if you were only itemizing $15k in 2017 and then using the new standard deduction in 2018. There's also the fact that there had been claims about success and income in the past, and only itemizing $15k does not indicate that, even with a paid off house and property taxes.

There certainly are people in NJ that don't itemize or they fall in-between $12k and $15k. Generally speaking, they likely have their house paid of (no MID) or they aren't making a whole lot of income. Not sure how NJ does it, but they may also have a senior property tax freeze, keeping their property taxes lower then the average.

WookieMan says

There certainly are people in NJ that don't itemize or they fall in-between $12k and $15k. Generally speaking, they likely have their house paid of (no MID) or they aren't making a whole lot of income. Not sure how NJ does it, but they may also have a senior property tax freeze, keeping their property taxes lower then the average.

Average property tax bill in NJ is something like 8500 including all the insanely high tax (20k average area's ) districts bubbled around NY. Median house price 250k. The number is 40% itemizing. That's third highest in the country. Which means 60% don't. Sorry but 60% of people in NJ don't live in a small condo on low income.

bob2356 says

Average property tax bill in NJ is something like 8500 including all the insanely high tax (20k average area's ) districts bubbled around NY. Median house price 250k. The number is 40% itemizing. That's third highest in the country. Which means 60% don't. Sorry but 60% of people in NJ don't live in a small condo on low income.

I think we're talking about different things here. My point is, in a high tax state like NJ (property tax and income), a $15k itemization is not representative of someone that is much better then middle class at best. Not a knock on anyone that itemizes less or takes the standard deduction (old one). It is what it is. My comment was directed elsewhere.

Here is a tax cut calculator:
https://www.ally.com/education/tax-reform-calculator/
I ran my numbers through it and it shows a slight decrease in taxes for me if I were using 2018 rates for my 2017 taxes. Note that it doesn't take into account the reduced rates for qualified dividends and long term capital gains so I question it's accuracy for my personal situation.