patrick.net

WookieMan says

I think utilities are a big factor in holding back solar and wind. At least from the perspective of an individual home owner. But most homeowners can't even figure out how to put in a circuit breaker either. Let alone attach an array of solar panels to their roof without some contractor gouging them 20-40% on the total install. It's an uphill battle to really crack open the homeowner market in my opinion.

I was thinking that roof condition is a factor. It might not make any sense to get rooftop solar panels unless your roof is relatively new, Since the cost of the panel installation and having to remove them to replace the roof, then reinstall again could be an issue that nobody seems to ever mention.

zzyzzx says

then reinstall again could be an issue that nobody seems to ever mention.

I certainly am in that camp. I honestly never thought about having to replace your roof once the panels are up there. If I were to do solar though, I always figured I'd do it the same time I put a new roof on so that's probably why.

That said I've got a 2 year old roof myself and I'd be set for 20 years, but I still wouldn't really think about getting solar. It honestly goes back to the whole buy/rent thing. Most people live in a purchased home for 7 years on average. I may get my investment back right as I'm moving, but most the time the true savings gets passed on to the next owner. Solar could increase your homes value, but I honestly feel like people are really more interested in kitchen cabinets and what their bathrooms look like.

At least in my area the wife would be something like this, "those solar panels make the house look like shit." Solar probably hasn't even touched 2% in the residential market here (complete guess on my end). We also have weather that's a lot more variable and longer darkness in the winter then some southern states. So mass adoption of solar I think would be tough in IL without the cost coming down 50% from where it is now.

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Malcolm says

So in reality you are driving a pretty cool car

Sorry, but "Leaf" and "cool" do not belong in the same sentence. It's an econobox, dorkmobile or whatever the proper derogatory term is for Corollas and Versas of this world. Which is ok if you're into this kind of thing.

I agree, the last thing I'm going to drive as my daily driver is a dork mobile like a Leaf. For a guy to say it's "pretty cool" makes me wonder about his manhood?

Then, there's this whole factor of size, where you can't carry anything big home when shopping at home depot, but I guess the Leaf is a great car to carry home your Lattes from Starbucks.

WookieMan says

That said I've got a 2 year old roof myself and I'd be set for 20 years,

I would think that a roof would last a lot longer there.

anon_7681a says

you can't carry anything big home when shopping at home depot

For as often as you are going to want to do that, Home Depot will rent you a truck.

Another good reason to move away from fossil fuels: the exhaust literally makes kids stupid:

http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.1001792

Children from highly polluted schools had a smaller growth in cognitive development than children from the paired lowly polluted schools, both in crude and adjusted models (e.g., 7.4% [95% CI 5.6%–8.8%] versus 11.5% [95% CI 8.9%–12.5%] improvement in working memory, p = 0.0024). Cogently, children attending schools with higher levels of EC, NO2, and UFP both indoors and outdoors experienced substantially smaller growth in all the cognitive measurements

Malcolm says

FortWayne says

I was told for me it would cost about 30k to get panels from Solar City by their rep who came out. Our electricity bill comes out to about $140/month. So
140 * 12 = $1680/year
30,000 / 1200 = 17.8 years (assuming money is not earning interest or dividents and just stays under the mattress). There is no benefit.

Ripoff. Go somewhere else, and if you are in S California, let me know. I could hook you up for much less. Those numbers are outrageous.

I would love to. What do you have in mind?

Malcolm says

Strategist says

Even the break pads went 115,000 miles on our 2011 Prius , and it's just a hybrid, not even a true electric.

You drive a Prius, but think the Leaf is a dorkmobile? Don't get me wrong, I leased two Priuses, as I knew they were a stepping stone, and I am into that sort of thing; definitely wasn't trying to impress, but I have to tell you, that I like the Leaf much better. For styling and for the all electric coolness factor, it blows the Prius away.

We drive the following:
2011 Prius
2015 Chevy Volt
2015 Mercedes electric drive (100%electric)

Leasing the electric cars worked out really well. Will be replacing the Volt with a new Volt. Replacing Mercedes with Tesla. Will be purchasing instead of leasing this time.
The range of 85 miles on the Mercedes was too inconvenient. Tesla's range of 200 miles + and super fast charging makes more sense.

zzyzzx says

WookieMan says

I think utilities are a big factor in holding back solar and wind. At least from the perspective of an individual home owner. But most homeowners can't even figure out how to put in a circuit breaker either. Let alone attach an array of solar panels to their roof without some contractor gouging them 20-40% on the total install. It's an uphill battle to really crack open the homeowner market in my opinion.

I was thinking that roof condition is a factor. It might not make any sense to get rooftop solar panels unless your roof is relatively new, Since the cost of the panel installation and having to remove them to replace the roof, then reinstall again could be an issue that nobody seems to ever mention.

That is correct. The best time to get solar panels is at the same time as a new roof. More savings that way as some of the labor is not being done twice.

zzyzzx says

I was thinking that roof condition is a factor. It might not make any sense to get rooftop solar panels unless your roof is relatively new, Since the cost of the panel installation and having to remove them to replace the roof, then reinstall again could be an issue that nobody seems to ever mention.

Even if your roof is relatively new there is an issue of roof damage during installation. This actually gives me a pause when I'm thinking about installing panels on the roof. I would imagine that the original warranty would be void if they find out that bunch of monkeys have been jumping all over it drilling holes and handling heavy panels...

So the only relatively bulletproof way to do it is to have both roof and panels installed by the same company (and pray it stays in business for the duration of the warranty).

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

This actually gives me a pause when I'm thinking about installing panels on the roof

Outside the cost of the panels and install, this is probably my first worry. If they're not installed correctly and I get a roof leak, well that could boost the cost of this whole thing a whole hell of a lot, wholly hell. I don't trust most contractors, even the ones I personally know.

WookieMan says

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

This actually gives me a pause when I'm thinking about installing panels on the roof

Outside the cost of the panels and install, this is probably my first worry. If they're not installed correctly and I get a roof leak, well that could boost the cost of this whole thing a whole hell of a lot, wholly hell. I don't trust most contractors, even the ones I personally know.

Xactly.

WookieMan says

If you need a new car sooner than that, you have another problem that probably isn't all that environmentally friendly needing a new car every 3 years.

Cars are not friendly to the environment.
Nobody needs a new car but it is nice to have one.
Somebody needs a decent 3 year old used car with good mpg.

Onvacation says

Nobody needs a new car but it is nice to have one.

It would be nice to have sex with every grade 10 babe I see on the street (scale of 1 to 10, not talking about a sophomore in high school). That would likely be rape though.

Onvacation says

Somebody needs a decent 3 year old used car with good mpg.

So I'll settle for the 8's and 9's of the world.

Is this similar logic?

I'm actually okay with the 9, riding until it's a 7 overall, but more like a 9 for an 6-8 year old used car if that makes sense.

I think sometimes I really don't make sense. I'm sorry Patnet and Associates.

Onvacation says

WookieMan says

If you need a new car sooner than that, you have another problem that probably isn't all that environmentally friendly needing a new car every 3 years.

Cars are not friendly to the environment.
Nobody needs a new car but it is nice to have one.
Somebody needs a decent 3 year old used car with good mpg.

That’s the sweet spot when it’s still next to new but 75% discount from new

If you’re a good horse trader, you can buy these cars and then drive for a year, and then sell for ~ what you originally paid to purchase

errc says

That’s the sweet spot when it’s still next to new but 75% discount from new

If you’re a good horse trader, you can buy these cars and then drive for a year, and then sell for ~ what you originally paid to purchase

Not saying you can't, or haven't done this, but how many miles do you people drive? I guess maybe that's why an EV wouldn't work for me. I know the Leaf mileage restrictions are a non-starter for me. But buying a 3 year old used car, using it for a year and then getting close to what you purchased it for a year later? Not happening in my scenario. My wife and I are 15-20K miles plus per year.

If you drive less than that, get a bike ;)

errc says

f you’re a good horse trader, you can buy these cars and then drive for a year, and then sell for ~ what you originally paid to purchase

Except in fucking California you'll have to pay 10% of the price in tax every time you trade that horse. 10% of $20K car buys shitload of repairs. In high-tax states buying a decent out-of-lease car and keeping it until the wheels fall off is a better strategy, IMO.

Strategist says

2015 Mercedes electric drive (100%electric)

Just out of curiosity, why would you replace a Volt with another Volt, instead of a Bolt?

If the Mercedes is the little SUV, I would have to agree with you. My girlfriend's boss got one when she saw how happy we are with our Leafs, but being boss lady, she needed a Mercedes. Lovely lady by the way. I was very excited for her, I really liked the looks of it, but immediately noticed shorter range and no level 3 charging. She had many problems with hers, to the point Mercedes took it back. That was unfortunate that someone we know had a bad EV experience. Hopefully you have better luck.

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Sorry, but "Leaf" and "cool" do not belong in the same sentence. It's an econobox, dorkmobile or whatever the proper derogatory term is for Corollas and Versas of this world.

While I agree with the part that 'cool' and 'Leaf' don't belong in the same sentence, I disagree with the second part. The Corolla is a decent car (no I don't own one) but the Versa is a case of 'you-need-a-car-badly-we've-got-a-bad-car-for-you'.

Strategist says

You should check out the latest model of the Leaf.

Not quite as bad as the earlier models but still no where close to being cool.

mmmarvel says

Versa is a case of 'you-need-a-car-badly-we've-got-a-bad-car-for-you'.

Yep, it's basically a Renault.

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

mmmarvel says

Versa is a case of 'you-need-a-car-badly-we've-got-a-bad-car-for-you'.

Yep, it's basically a Renault.

As an owner of one currently, I'll disagree. One muffler, brakes, tires and regular oil changes. 175k miles. Most cars are only as good as the people that take care of them. Most people don't take care of them. That's any car. Given the price point, most Versa owners are admittedly deadbeats that needed a car and suck at life and maintaining a car. So it probably gets a bad reputation or you know bad people that are bad with cars (most people).

I'm not a big car guy (obviously), but outside of vintage or older model type cars, I can pretty much afford 99% of cars brand new, any make/model. It's really a simple math equation. Point A to point B as cheap as possible. You can get the nicer car with the taint massage feature, but the fact remains the same, A to B.

You also have to realize driving on the south side of Chicago, a Versa is way less likely to get me car jacked, shot, etc. I have other vehicles before you decide to torch me.

Malcolm says

Just out of curiosity, why would you replace a Volt with another Volt, instead of a Bolt?

My daughter has a 2017 Volt which she does not want. I will replace the 2015 Volt lease, and buy her car.
I also feel comfortable with the Volt not having range anxiety. 80% of the time I will using electricity only.

Strategist says

My daughter has a 2017 Volt which she does not want. I will replace the 2015 Volt lease, and buy her car.
I also feel comfortable with the Volt not having range anxiety. 80% of the time I will using electricity only.

With a >200 mile range EV, you shouldn't have any range anxiety. We go all over the place with our Leafs. It is almost never an issue with our limited range, especially when you have a routine. Malls, movie theaters, grocery stores, convenience stores.....they are putting in fast chargers. It is such a time saver to not have to go to get gas, you just charge up as part of your errand.

Malcolm says

Strategist says

My daughter has a 2017 Volt which she does not want. I will replace the 2015 Volt lease, and buy her car.
I also feel comfortable with the Volt not having range anxiety. 80% of the time I will using electricity only.

With a >200 mile range EV, you shouldn't have any range anxiety. We go all over the place with our Leafs. It is almost never an issue with our limited range, especially when you have a routine. Malls, movie theaters, grocery stores, convenience stores.....they are putting in fast chargers. It is such a time saver to not have to go to get gas, you just charge up as part of your errand.

Here is our vehicle strategy:
Prius Hybrid that my son still uses.
Chevy Volt Pug in hybrid that I will normally drive.
Tesla, cheap one, that my wife will drive.

This gives us the most economical strategy all things considered. Based on who drives where, when, and what distance.