patrick.net

Meanwhile how many did US war efforts kill every single day?

What is the ratio?

Even with the large amount of followers they dominate the terror rankings by far, you know that, everybody knows that. Yes, if every muslim would be like that we'd likely be dead or in a civil war, but those 2 statements are not mutually exclusive. I'm against most if not all US war efforts in the middle-east, but keep in mind that a lot of those efforts were pro-muslim, so I cannot follow your logic. All the aid given to assad, gaffadi rebels and toppling hussein were pro-islamic war efforts. Also, if the US would not keep Israel in check they would have opted for much harsher warfare long ago as they have the military supremacy over there.

No one tells me who to hate.
I hate everyone.

indigenous says

Meanwhile how many did US war efforts kill every single day?

What is the ratio?

Meanwhile how many did Chinese war efforts kill every single day?

What is the ratio?

NRA members didn't commit this act. Therefore, it's okay to score political points with it immediately, and we are spared the "now is not the right time" nonsense.

mell says

I'm against most if not all US war efforts in the middle-east, but keep in mind that a lot of those efforts were pro-muslim, so I cannot follow your logic.

Government involvement at all is a charade. It causes more harm than good. Much of the problem started when the US setup bases in Saudi Arabia. Which offended because of these bases being near Mecca.

Point is that government meddling such as with "democracy building" always has unintended consequences. Things like Iraq is composed of 3 factions who do no like each other IOW Iraq has borders that are not organic to the region.

The US involvement in Syria and Libya is at the core of immigrant problem in Europe. 20 somethings are the ones physically able to make the trip, this is also the age of people most likely to commit violent acts. Since the European countries age aging they have many fewer people of similar age. You then give welfare to these people creating idle time and no need to exchange with their new country. These people come from a culture of violence. Is it really surprising that this ends badly?

The US putting the Shaw in power created factions that were not organic to the Iran. So they overthrow the Shaw.

All of this and much more is because of government meddling.

Strategist says

Meanwhile how many did Chinese war efforts kill every single day?

What is the ratio?

Non sequitur

Peggy Noonan's 10% theory:

"Let’s say only 10% of the 1.6 billion [Muslims worldwide] harbor feelings of grievance toward “the West,” or desire to expunge the infidel, or hope to re-establish the caliphate. That 10% is 160 million people. Let’s say of that group only 10% would be inclined toward jihad. That’s 16 million. Assume that of that group only 10% really means it—would really become jihadis or give them aid and sustenance. That’s 1.6 million. That is a lot of ferociousness in an age of increasingly available weapons, including the chemical, biological and nuclear sort.

My math tells me it will be a long, hard fight. We will not be able to contain them, we will have to beat them."

P N Dr Lo R says

Peggy Noonan

Wow. That comment went south really fast.

Like giving up a touchdown on the opening kickoff.

Je suis Lahore!

P N Dr Lo R says

My math tells me it will be a long, hard fight. We will not be able to contain them, we will have to beat them."

It would probably help if you don't poke them with a stick?

By that logic you could piss of 7 billion people too

Most Muslims are not terrorists.
Most terrorists are Muslims.

Both of those statements are true, and they do not contradict each other in the least.

Islam does in fact teach contempt for all non-Muslims (read the Koran if you doubt it), but most Muslims are decent people in spite of what they are taught by Islam.

The people we really need to worry about are westerners who never tell the truth about Islamic violence.

resistance says

The people we really need to worry about are westerners who never tell the truth about Islamic violence.

or US violence

indigenous says

Strategist says

Meanwhile how many did Chinese war efforts kill every single day?

What is the ratio?

Non sequitur

You claim Muslims kill us because we bomb them. I proved that is not the case.

Ironman says

Now factor in approximately 10% of the US population is Muslim (32 MILLION)...

Feel any better now??

No.

Strategist says

You claim Muslims kill us because we bomb them. I proved that is not the case.

Link?

Ironman says

Now factor in approximately 10% of the US population is Muslim (32 MILLION)..

The Muslim population in the US is around 1% (3 million), which is why we don't have the problems that Belgium & France have around 8%. The difference results from specific doctrines in Islam, for example taqiyya and dawa: Islam requires believers to impose Sharia wherever they can, but not where they can't. At 1% Muslim, we're a long way from Sharia, but at around 10%, the Belgian and French jihadis are getting close enough to their goal that they can see it from where they are.

Look at Lebanon, for example. Within two generations, Belgium and France might hit 20% Muslim, which the experience of Lebanon suggests could cause chaos and collapse their Enlightenment governments. France has already suspended to some degree everyone's Constitutional rights, rather than part with its precious commitment to Islam. That constituency grows only more powerful with time. Since Islam commands believers personally to conquer violently everyone everywhere, and provides powerful incentives to motivate jihadis and their families, it raises concerns that the other Abrahamic faiths do not.

P N Dr Lo R says

Peggy Noonan's 10% theory:

"Let’s say only 10% of the 1.6 billion [Muslims worldwide] harbor feelings of grievance toward “the West,” or desire to expunge the infidel, or hope to re-establish the caliphate. That 10% is 160 million people. Let’s say of that group only 10% would be inclined toward jihad. That’s 16 million. Assume that of that group only 10% really means it—would really become jihadis or give them aid and sustenance. That’s 1.6 million. That is a lot of ferociousness in an age of increasingly available weapons, including the chemical, biological and nuclear sort.

My math tells me it will be a long, hard fight. We will not be able to contain them, we will have to beat them."

Her original column is behind a paywall, but I found a free source link, ironically in an article that disagrees with her. I think her conclusions are correct, though I wouldn't use 10% approximations to get there: the % of MENA Muslims who harbor a grievance against NATO and especially the USA is very high, probably 80% among Syrians, though the % who would actually commence violent jihad is lower. Regardless of how you get there, the ultimate number does probably exceed a million.

Ironman says

curious2 says

That's incorrect though. The Muslim population in the US is around 1% (3 million),

Oops, I was typing fast and didn't remember if it was around 1% or 10%... Even at around 1% (3 Mil), that makes it approximately 210,000 (7% radical) current Muslim's in this country that don't like us very much....

The question is, which 210K out of the 3 Million are the ones???

You would need to eat all the skittles to find out.

curious2 says

Within two generations, Belgium and France might hit 20% Muslim, which the experience of Lebanon suggests could cause chaos and collapse their Enlightenment governments. France has already suspended to some degree everyone's Constitutional rights, rather than part with its precious commitment to Islam.

First you are right than the Muslim population growth is itself a threat far more deadly than any terrorist attack.
But I would say this problem won't be solved without removing some rights from these Muslims. They currently have freedom of speech and religion. Unless they are terrorists, nothing can be done. They can just take over these countries through population growth (4 generations?), then elect an Islamist government, burn the same constitution that protected them, and impose Shariah.

Heraclitusstudent says

this problem won't be solved without...

admitting that they have a problem, and that the problem is Islam. So long as the Pope and Merkel's mostly Protestant CDU agree that Europe must import more Muslims, the policy continues. Even the "rightwing" parties have difficulty admitting the problem: the French National Front are expressly Catholic, but they can't be more Catholic than the Pope, and he keeps telling them to continue importing Muslims.

Thunderlips11 called it invade&invite, and I am starting to think invade&import might be even more accurate: NATO and the Saudis are deliberately driving as many Sunni Muslims as possible into Europe; it's a command invitation, because even if they were happy in Syria, they can't stay anymore. Most of the Syrians blame America, and understandably so; our mainstream politicians insist on "liberating" them or whatever, which in practice seems to mean driving them out of their homes and into NATO countries. At least isolationist Bernie would leave them alone, and Putin's candidate The Donald would let Putin sort it out, either of which would likely be better or less bad than what we have now.

I agree with what you said before that the issue is to fight the ideas of Islam; I would feel really reluctant to start discriminating against a group of people based on who their parents are. That's why I come back to things like offering everybody a free ticket to Mecca, on condition that going forward anybody who chooses to travel to a specific list of places that advocate the violent overthrow of manmade law (including that place) must never return. Pointing out that Islam requires believers to go to Mecca creates a context where the jihadis can't claim the believers' rewards (e.g. 72 virgins) unless they go to Mecca first, and every day they don't go is a daily declaration that they don't really believe. I wouldn't start in by taking rights away from a specific group; to the contrary, if you offer everyone a one-way ticket to Mecca, then nobody can say they've been adversely treated. There might be a disparate impact, but it's on the basis of belief in a doctrine that commands believers to overthrow the government by violence.

+1

curious2 says

I would feel really reluctant to start discriminating against a group of people based on who their parents are. That's why I come back to things like offering everybody a free ticket to Mecca, on condition that going forward anybody who chooses to travel to a specific list of places that advocate the violent overthrow of manmade law (including that place) must never return.

I think it is more a matter of a cultural contest. Mexicans that come to the US at first have the intention of making money to send home. But after a while they decide they like having a higher standard of living and want to stay here.

With Muslims it is harder than that for the obvious reason. But when the 20 somethings, who appear to be the ones doing most of the violent acts, start having kids I'm guessing that they will have a different intention.

Excellent points, Curious2, though with the Syrians I'd say while 80% blame the US, half of those are 'non-Sunni largely secular' Christians, Druze, Alawites, etc. and the blame is political rather than religious. The other 40% are asshole Sunni bastards who hate the West even if we bombed them with cupcakes and soda.

The European influx is powered by indistinguishable-from-real Syrian Passports, because they are made and sold by Syrian officials on the black market using Official Paper and Stamps, but the majority of the rapefugees themselves are Afghans, Iraqis, Eritreans, Moroccans, etc. Syrians are a minority of the current wave.

I can't forget that within a few weeks of the Russians bombing the oil smuggling into Turkey, ISIS began to fall apart and Erdogan tried to be a tough guy.

In any case, the Wahabis crucified a Priest who worked at a Charity Nursing Home in Yemen recently.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3512288/ISIS-carries-Good-Friday-crucifixion-Indian-Catholic-priest-Yemen-kidnapped-three-weeks-ago.html

Goddamn Saudis. The Houthis really nailed their ass.

Paleban at a Brussels Memorial, holding the terrorist rag high and stomping on the Israeli Flag.

curious2 says

So long as the Pope and Merkel's mostly Protestant CDU agree that Europe must import more Muslims, the policy continues.

Well the pope says a lot of things that no one takes very seriously.
Merkel is a different matter. That reflects the will of the elite. They see a demographic catastrophe coming to Germany. They need the new blood.
But they are clueless about the problem they are creating.

curious2 says

Thunderlips11 called it invade&invite, and I am starting to think invade&import might be even more accurate: NATO and the Saudis are deliberately driving as many Sunni Muslims as possible into Europe

The new immigrant flow is bad and takes us farther from a solution. However the existing Muslim population by itself is already a core problem. If there was an organized effort to radicalized them, extremism could spread like wildfire. It may be already happening. You just cannot stop that if it is done under the cover of free speech and freedom of religion. Radicalization is all about speech and religion, nothing more.
If this happens, then you are talking of a civil war, and constitutional rights will be the last thing to worry about.

I want to be hopeful: it is true that western European countries have an education system that tends to lower religious beliefs over time. It is true that many Muslims are strongly against these extremists. It is true also that poverty and exclusion contribute to this. However there is no simple solution to poverty and exclusion in Europe, in the current economic context. You just have to visit an immigrant suburb in any European country: the law and order system is overwhelmed and so is the education system. Communities are closing themselves and forming ghettos. It's very hard to look at this, look at the amount of denial, look at the new flow of arrivals and be hopeful.

Quite frankly I even look moderate Muslims with skepticism: how do I know that if Muslims were a majority they wouldn't be the first to stab you in the back?

anonymous says

Why not include the "hidden costs" of terrorism from the Religion of Peace as well ?

Bay, don't forget that Muslims commit a disproportionate amount of crime in Europe, particularly in the Benelux and France. They also dodge taxes, labor laws, business laws, regulations, etc. Are famous for not collecting VAT on Kebabs or back-door-of-the-garage electronics sales.

Oh and ISIS just crucified a Catholic priest-crickets from the mainstream media.

anonymous says

Any yet they show up with nothing supposedly but all have the latest in encrypted smart phones, manage to open businesses, access to god only knows what including weapons I would have a hard time obtaining yet they are disenfranchised...I don't get it. Now that I think of it, this sounds all sounds awfully familiar almost like it was happening in this country.

Yup. I posted a video a while back with an Indonesian-Dutch woman running a kiosk complaining that the "refugees" tried to hand her 500-Euro Notes and had the latest $500 iPhones.

Not paying taxes and operating in the Black/Grey markets is typical from residents of the MENA, the most corrupt region on Earth, except for maybe Central Africa.

thunderlips11 says

Paleban at a Brussels Memorial, holding the terrorist rag high and stomping on the Israeli Flag.

Fucking terrorists. Identify these bastards, and keep an eye on them. I hope they blow themselves up.

thunderlips11 says

I posted a video a while back with an Indonesian-Dutch woman running a kiosk complaining that the "refugees" tried to hand her 500-Euro Notes

Tax refund!