patrick.net

People define themselves with their identity. As they say of British expats "More British than Britons". Therefore, we shouldn't be surprised that 1st/2nd Gen immigrant youth are more "Muslims than most Muslims".

The reason Europe can't do anything is the Neoliberal line of the EU and the Centrist parties, which are open borders oriented; they feel they can't discriminate. Also their supporters want to stop wage increases or rental income decreases from a declining population.

thunderlips11 says

People define themselves with their identity. As they say of British expats "More British than Britons". Therefore, we shouldn't be surprised that 1st/2nd Gen immigrant youth are more "Muslims than most Muslims".

The reason Europe can't do anything is the Neoliberal line of the EU and the Centrist parties, which are open borders oriented; they feel they can't discriminate. Also their supporters want to stop wage increases or rental income decreases from a declining population.

This. Precisely this, plus the fact that converts can be even more extreme than native born. I say that without hatred; to the contrary, I love Anglophiles and Scotophiles, but if they move to Britain they will find they are more enthusiastic about kilts or whatever than the average native.

If an American says he has converted to Islam, I would love to be able to say, "Congratulations, did you know about the free program offering everyone a free ticket to Mecca? Islam says believers have to go Mecca, and all you have to do now is visit the Post Office and sign up for your free ticket. Bon voyage!"

www.youtube.com/embed/ntf-SMAxjMU

This was filmed 11 days before the tragic ISIS attacks 3/22/2016 in Brussels. Mischal Modrikamen (born 22 February 1966) is a Belgian lawyer and politician. He is the co-founder and leader of the People's Party. He is the vice-prsident of the Alliance For Direct Democracy in Europe and the publisher of Le Peuple.

curious2 says

It works all too well, not with a majority but with enough to get a large number of people killed. Maybe you call the murdered and maimed "statistically insignificant" but I disagree.

Not sure what you are talking about. The US has a tiny fraction of Muslims.
Have a public register of Muslims who do not renounce extreme ideas the way we have a register of sex offenders.
Bar them from buying weapons.
They will be harassed. Their children will be bullied at school. Maybe they will leave.
It will be a giant confrontation, but a confrontation focused strictly on their worse and most vulnerable ideas.
The problem now is that the refusal of any confrontation gives a free pass to the most extreme ideas. The final result of this - as Trump shows - can only be a confrontation with *all* Muslims. That would be very unfortunate.

thunderlips11 says

The reason Europe can't do anything is the Neoliberal line of the EU and the Centrist parties, which are open borders oriented; they feel they can't discriminate.

And the regressive left that would hold hands and sing Kumbaya with the devil.
What I said above would halt that by isolating individuals who believe in absolutely indefensible ideas.

And remember once you renounce even one extreme idea, you admit that these ideas are not absolute and dictated by God.
That cracks the entire edifice of beliefs in an irreparable way, and puts you on a slippery slope to the liberal side.

Heraclitusstudent says

once you renounce even one extreme idea, you admit

No, again, read about taqiyya. Islam allows Muslims to lie in service of Islam. They don't even have to cross their fingers behind their backs.

thunderlips11 says

This was filmed 11 days before the tragic ISIS attacks 3/22/2016 in Brussels

"A majority of Muslims within 15-20 yrs" in Brussels.
Europe should smell the coffee and wake up. fast.

curious2 says

No, again, read about taqiyya and dawa. Islam allows Muslims to lie in service of Islam. They don't even have to cross their fingers behind their backs.

You assume that taqiyya and dawa is more powerful in someone minds than anything else. This is not the case.

Heraclitusstudent says

more powerful in someone minds than anything else.

I believe the evidence shows religion can become more powerful in a person's mind than anything else, even the instinct to survive. Once a person accepts the basic premise of a particular religion, e.g some pederast was a prophet and his writings are sacred, they can rationalize following those writings at any time. Their past sins, and even past renunciations within the context of taqiyya and dawa, will be forgiven if they die in Jihad. If they stay, then you must beware if they experience any stress at all in life: a divorce, the loss of a job, foreclosure, any stress that might set them off. It's like keeping a timebomb in the middle of a classroom, and saying the timer says it isn't about to blow up yet: you're going to need to keep a very close eye on that timer, until you get the bomb out of the classroom.

That's why I say offer everyone a free one-way ticket to Mecca, on condition they can never return, and maybe add a rule that going forward anyone who chooses to go to a specific list of places (including Mecca) can never return. It gets the bomb out of the classroom.

curious2 says

I believe the evidence shows religion can become more powerful in a person's mind than anything else

Yeah, this is a cult and I agree the effects are very strong. However the remedies for that are well known as well. It can be done. It's just that no one even starts. And most people don't have beliefs so strong as you describe. People are absorbed by their lives and most just don't care that much, though they are vulnerable.

Heraclitusstudent says

Yeah, this is a cult and I agree the effects are very strong. However the remedies for that are well known as well.

Deprogramming remedies may work among people who fell into tiny cults, once they are rescued and returned to the outside world where practically nobody believes in the cult. There is no known remedy to deprogram people from a cult that has more than a billion members, and in fact there is even a definitional question regarding whether such a widely held belief can still be called a cult after more than 1,000 years.

Heraclitusstudent says

What I said above would halt that by isolating individuals who believe in absolutely indefensible ideas

How do you do that ? Truth serum ?

curious2 says

there is even a definitional question regarding whether such a widely held belief can still be called a cult after more than 1,000 years.

It is a cult in propaganda terms.

marcus says

Heraclitusstudent says

What I said above would halt that by isolating individuals who believe in absolutely indefensible ideas

How do you do that ? Truth serum ?

Do you defend the right of people to believe apostates should be killed?

Heraclitusstudent says

curious2 says

there is even a definitional question regarding whether such a widely held belief can still be called a cult after more than 1,000 years.

It is a cult in propaganda terms.

It's a cult that never stopped growing. We are in deep poo poo.

zzyzzx says

Crazy Liberal.

Meanwhile, in Hungary....

Strategist says

We are at war against Islam

Actually Islam is at war against us.

P N Dr Lo R says

Strategist says

We are at war against Islam

Actually Islam is at war against us.

And we "have not yet begun to fight," though we have enabled the jihadis by toppling some governments that had previously kept them mostly under control (e.g. Iraq and Tunisia).

P N Dr Lo R says

Strategist says

We are at war against Islam

Actually Islam is at war against us.

They were always at war with non Muslims. They seldom lost.

curious2 says

And we "have not yet begun to fight," though we have enabled the jihadis by toppling some governments that had previously kept them mostly under control (e.g. Iraq and Tunisia).

Iran too. The one nation we should have supported. Most Iranians in the US are atheists or secular Muslims.

Strategist says

Most Iranians in the US are atheists or secular Muslims.

That's why they are in the US instead of Iran. Supporting the theocratic regime in Iran would not be a good idea. Ironically though, they are the principal beneficiaries of our misguided misadventures in Iraq.

When the terrorists took hostages in Tehran, they gave America a cassus belli to go there and take the oil. Alas, America was too exhausted by the misguided misadventure in Viet Nam, and had elected a President who was too decent and kind to seize the opportunity. I love President Carter, but Iran became his undoing.

curious2 says

Dan8267 says

It's time we rethink this strategy.

Maybe, but some of the basic factors in the calculation have not changed, including Islam.

Of course Islam is bad and the world would be safer if all religions were abandoned. However, the strategy of using military force, essentially murder and death threats, to gain access to other nation's resources is based on the faulty assumption that less technologically advanced nation-states are not a threat to our national security and can never be. The past half century of terrorism has unequivocally demonstrated that this assumption is wrong.

Even ignoring the immorality of such policies, asymmetric warfare makes such policies stupid and jeopardizes the lives of Americans. So even if we value non-American lives at zero, such policies are still foolish and all the cost-benefit analysis favoring them are wrong.

We will never defeat Islam by living up to the moniker of the great Satan. Alternative strategies must be implemented.

curious2 says

I believe the evidence shows religion can become more powerful in a person's mind than anything else, even the instinct to survive.

Yep, and that kind of irrational force is dangerous precisely for that reason. One cannot erect deterrents to irrational behavior. A deterrent inherently assumes a rational mind to deter.

Dan8267 says

One cannot erect deterrents to irrational behavior.

Most people are predictably irrational. The question is, how to get them to what you want and stop doing what you don't want. Offering everyone a free one-way ticket to Mecca, on condition that they never return, is a carrot that could get believers in Islam to do what you want (go away and not come back). As for the stick to deter them from joining ISIL/Daesh, I refer you to my prior comment. Don't give up on people simply for being irrational; irrationality complicates only slightly your task of programming, like Hewlett Packard's Reverse Polish notation.

This is an interesting article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/23/opinion/the-islamic-states-european-front.html

Of note: one reason that the US is successful in stopping plots is that the US Muslim population often reports the plots to police. In Europe, there is less trust between the Muslim population and police, and there is more of an us against them feeling, so plots are not getting reported.

It seems to me that it is a little early to be sure of such things, but it's a theory that makes sense to me. We are not trying to convince ISIS fighters that we are OK. We are trying to convince moderates that they are better off turning in terrorists and fitting into society than turning inward and fighting the West. It's about cutting off the pipeline and claiming the hearts and minds (and sympathy) of more people.

Also from the article: ISIS is losing in the middle east, and they are likely to try to stage attacks in Europe to get some 'wins' to help with recruiting. I guess they are ripe for a Trump type candidate to come in and say, "We don't win anymore. People love me. I'm going to win, and then we are going to win, and win, and win." Such a character could surely rise to the top of the ISIS promotion ladder.

anonymous says

These events should be downplayed and coverage of their losses and setbacks expanded. Then again broadcasting what our strategies, plans etc. are to combat these groups is giving them a heads up and a chance to prepare.

When I saw the headline that they captured the guy from the Paris attack, and that he was planning another attack, I immediately thought - crap, now they are going to 'go now' to carry it out before they get caught. Why on earth anyone leaked that information to the press is beyond me. ISIS should be mocked in the global news, not given prominence. I agree that they should report ISIS setbacks, but just the obvious ones like the number that have been killed in Iraq/Syria, and the cities they are losing control of.

Strategist says

You really think major terrorist attacks like 911 should be treated by the local police? This is war. We are at war against Islam, just like the rest of the world.

Oceania is at war with Eurasia! We have always been at war with Eurasia...

Strategist says

Crazy Liberal.

If you were a liberal like you often claim, you would not make such an blatantly false accusation.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Crazy Liberal.

If you were a liberal like you often claim, you would not make such an blatantly false accusation.

Liberals, like conservatives are not perfect. Self criticism is what leads to solutions.

NuttBoxer says

Strategist says

You really think major terrorist attacks like 911 should be treated by the local police? This is war. We are at war against Islam, just like the rest of the world.

Oceania is at war with Eurasia! We have always been at war with Eurasia...

All based on religion.

Dan8267 says

We will never defeat Islam by living up to the moniker of the great Satan. Alternative strategies must be implemented.

There will be a majority of Muslim in Brussels within 15-20yrs.
Not having kids has consequences.

YesYNot says

Of note: one reason that the US is successful in stopping plots is that the US Muslim population often reports the plots to police. In Europe, there is less trust between the Muslim population and police, and there is more of an us against them feeling, so plots are not getting reported.

The narrative that these are a few terrorists and "plots" is just wrong.
This is not a fight against a few terrorists sent by ISIS.

You have 25% Muslim population in Brussels TODAY, will be a majority in less than 20yrs.

Some Muslim elected officials are already calling for Belgium to become an Islamic state.

The problem is not with the US. The problem is with Europe, that has already a large Muslim population growing fast. And willfully adding more by the millions.

Ask yourself what will the US do when their European allies (Belgium, France, UK etc...) turn to Islamic states, Sharia law, etc....
You think it can't happen? We are on track right for that.

Strategist says

Liberals, like conservatives are not perfect. Self criticism is what leads to solutions.

You are not criticizing. You are mislabeling and bashing. Criticism addresses specific complaints and calls for specific changes.

And liberals like me do not whitewash Islam. Leftists do. Liberals find the entire Middle East culture to be highly repugnant.

YesYNot says

ISIS is losing in the middle east, and they are likely to try to stage attacks in Europe to get some 'wins' to help with recruiting.

ISIS is just the emerging part of these ideas in the middle-east.
Saudi Arabia has the same. The Shiites are not better.
This is not a group of people we are talking about. This is about ideas.
The first step is to look at these ideas and denounce them as evil wherever they appear.

People also need to pay attention to the non-terror, crime side: Muslims are 45% of the Belgian prison population. In France, 2/3 of all prisoners are Muslim.

They live on welfare while engaging in smuggling, underground enterprises, drug dealing, protection rackets, etc.

thunderlips11 says

They live on welfare while engaging in smuggling, underground enterprises, drug dealing, protection rackets, etc.

And electing politicians who demand respect for Islam and try to impose Sharia.

anonymous says

Going along with that thought while watching the news as it unfolded, there was a comment on how ISIS is "controlling" the news.

In NATO countries, the military industrial complex controls the news. They seek to monetize the problem of Islam, hence invade&invite and the endless blather about "radicalized" vs "moderate" Muslims (i.e. people who actually believe and follow Islam vs people who claim to hold Islam sacred but have not yet acted on it). A "moderate" Muslim is, for example, a prominent Saudi royal who authorizes USD $50bn in procurement from NATO arms manufacturers and associated dealers, while also donating to various "charities" that fund Wahhabi madrassahs (including in Belgium) and militias in Syria; such a "moderate" doesn't personally murder anyone, but pays others to do that.

The other differences between Europe and the US come down mainly to numbers. Europe has imported an order of magnitude more Muslims than America has, and so those considering acting on the "sacred" beliefs of Islam find "safety in numbers." It's like when a crowd starts rioting, looting, etc. Belgian police estimate it takes 20 law enforcement to monitor one terror suspect; with an 8% Muslim population, they have so many suspects that effective monitoring becomes impossible, and the crowd knows that.

thunderlips11 says

People also need to pay attention to the non-terror, crime side: Muslims are 45% of the Belgian prison population. In France, 2/3 of all prisoners are Muslim.

They live on welfare while engaging in smuggling, underground enterprises, drug dealing, protection rackets, etc

They should be placed in "protective custody"...