patrick.net

Mr Happygoluckofus says

Cry me a river Dan, you sit around and feel sorry for my slave trading ancesors will ya?

Sorry, no. I pity those fools. Whatever wealth they gained from the evil of slavery, they have paid several times over in terms of lost economic opportunity and the ongoing costs of the ramifications of slavery. Today, you personally continue to pay the costs of slavery through welfare, police, prisons, emergency room care, etc. And you will continue to pay those costs until you fix the problem your slaver ancestor scum created. And until you do fix those problems and stop glorifying those ancestors and their despicable culture, you deserved to be judged just like them.

Dan8267 says

It is the responsibility of the American South to fix the problems it created.

It already did.

The South kicked out the racist Democrats and is now much more prosperous and tolerant with Republican political leadership.

socal2 says

The South [. . .] is now much more [. . .] tolerant

LOL, that's some expert trolling!

eh ha uh, Liberals! Whadduya gonna do?

The rest of the country is moving on with out them.

One thing I've learned from Patrick.net, typically when people are talking about a group, and trying to tell you they know what it is (beliefs, makeup, etc.), they aren't speaking from direct personal experience as part of that group.

Liberals are this ...
Gays are this ...
Conservatives are that ...

... it's usually overgeneralized BS, or just completely wrong.

Dan8267 says

The American South is a culture of vileness and evil. If modern southerns want the respect of the rest of the world and forgiveness for their past, they must admit their sins and change their culture. Otherwise, they deserve to be judged on the past actions of their culture. We forgave Germany because it changed. The American South still clings to that vile culture.

Has anyone read about Lease-Convict? It's not as if the vile policies of the South disappeared after emancipation; they simply found a new disposable source of free labor, one that could kill or maim with impunity.

It's no coincidence that this servitude was exclusively (as far as I can tell) to the South.

Interesting. Most people knew that before they came here.

Rew says

One thing I've learned from Patrick.net, typically when people are talking about a group, and trying to tell you they know what it is (beliefs, makeup, etc.), they aren't speaking from direct personal experience as part of that group.

I bet I not only understand more groups of people than most, but I respect them more as well.

Mr Happygoluckofus says

I bet I not only understand more groups of people than most, but I respect them more as well.

Except for the terminally ill. But, hey, they're disgusting!

No you just don't understand me, it's never a good day for a peepshow suicide.

Dan8267 says

And you will continue to pay those costs until you fix the problem your slaver ancestor scum created. And until you do fix those problems and stop glorifying those ancestors and their despicable culture, you deserved to be judged just like them.

Hyperbolic much ?

I know you will not and can not do this, but please outline a few of the most important steps that southerners need to do to address these problems, and exactly how these are any different from steps northerners or westerners need to take, and also how these steps have anything whatsoever to do with nostalgia for the confederacy or any of the complex emotions some southerners have for the war they lost and the hundreds of thousands that died in that war. Keep in mind that most of the white folk in that war were poor southerners that never owned slaves, but were manipulated by the southern plutocrats and their circumstances in much the same way that they manipulate right wing ingrates today. It was simply ignorance on the part of the majority. But it was also a phenomenon that had momentum and was not easily changed, because ending slavery brought huge questions with it. Lincoln supposedly wanted to send the slaves back to Africa. How can someone be so lacking in human compassion that you can't begin to understand any of the subtle complexities of that culture, and just boil it down to a target for your hate ?

I'm not defending slavery in the slightest, but if I was born in 1830 in certain locations in the south I probably would, and so would you.

Usually when you get on your high horse and get so hyperbolic, I at least understand what the hell it is you believe. But this makes no sense to me at all. Other than communicating that you think southerners are idiots and you hate them.

Here's some history reading, that's not biased at all, but explores the question, why was the typical non slave owning southerner willing to fight for the confederacy ?
http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/civil-war-overview/why-non-slaveholding.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/

HydroCabron says

Mr Happygoluckofus says

I bet I not only understand more groups of people than most, but I respect them more as well.

I think he was probably referring to liberals, democrats, legislators, scientists, judges, traders of oil futures, health insurance executives, college professors, African Americans (not recent immigrants) , gays that are married, Obama supporters, Hillary supporters, Huffington Post readers, people who love Starbucks, yuppies, hipsters, people that think Trump would be the worst President in the history of the U.S., people that believe that anthropogenic climate change is real, etc., etc..

People in the northeast are racist. Therefore the south has no racists.

HydroCabron says

People in the northeast are racist. Therefore the south has no racists.

No, I think the point is that southern racists are different and more evil than all the other racists, because some of them even get nostalgic about some flag, and some like to reenact certain civil war battles, so therefore they obviously wish slavery still existed.

Also it's the south's fault that African Americans are even here. Those southern scumbags ruined America. So Dan is pissed. He also hates the impact that African Americans have had on our culture, especially in the arts and sports. You won't catch Dan listening to Jazz, Blues, R& B, Rock, or Hip hop, or enjoying watching any professional sports, except perhaps soccer, hockey or figure skating. Dan's scared, because if African Americans are already so dominant in many aspects of our culture, he fears for the future. And it's all the south's fault.

In all seriousness, I'll admit that racism is more prevalent in the south. But I don't think the reasons for that are nearly as simple or one dimensional as Dan suggests. Even if it's indirectly related to the post war period of freed slaves and the fact that the south adapts a little slower than the north, to integration and to letting go of the ways of several decades ago. This is because of ignorance and also perhaps due to a higher population of very poor African Americans in the south. That's not particularly surprising. I don't see that it's all that related to southerners being butthurt about about losing the war or being unwilling to admit that slavery was wrong. The simple fact is, that at the time, slavery wasn't considered all that wrong (by many people including most of our founding fathers). Who's to say that there's not some kind of providence in all those African Americans being here in this country now, and in time we will get over the painful way in which that came to be (I know - easy for me to say).

I guess one way in which Dan is right, since the population of African Americans is so much higher in some of the southeastern states, they could do more if they wanted to, on a local state by state basis to invest in good schools and jobs in black communities. It's not reparations but at least it would be a gesture. I'm not going to hold my breath on that one.

An interesting map. http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united-states/quick-facts/all-states/black-population-percentage#map

Why do you hate Greenlanders?

HydroCabron says

People in the northeast are racist.

Don't expect Dan to understand anything, he still has a naïve view of the world and ignores every fact that does not fit his emotional state. And don't tell him Emancipation Proclamation was signed in 1863, not 1861 when the war started. Because Dan loves to live in a bubble where he thinks war was fought over slavery after which he as some weird immigrant hates entire America.

Hell, I bet Putin hates America less than Dan.

FortWayne says

And don't tell him Emancipation Proclamation was signed in 1863, not 1861 when the war started.

Huh?

FortWayne says

Hell, I bet Putin hates America less than Dan.

You confuse hate, for deep feeling and attachment. Dan cares enough to be critical.
Dan probably also prescribes to the tenant that one of things which makes America so great, is that we can so openly, and freely, challenge established belief and governance.

Rew says

You confuse hate, for deep feeling and attachment. Dan cares enough to be critical.

Do you read the shit this guy writes?

He routinely claims that half the country is "pure evil". Particularly Republicans, Southerners or religious people.

The dude is a cartoon character. I almost think he is just trolling. No one can be so self-righteous, hyperbolic and smug.

Only you would find a way to link the behaviors and actions of a mentally ill black man to all liberals simply because of his race.

We liberals don't all know each other and you can't flush us out of the bushes with your battle cries. Unless you yell "Section 8" and "I blame Obama" and "free food" really loudly... then we'll come running.

Well said elliemae.
(Sorry, did you say free food too?)

socal2 says

Do you read the shit this guy writes?

When Dan's posts aren't novellas, yes.
We are all a bit crazy, in our own ways. We all hold some strange beliefs. You have way more in common with Dan than you know.

Rew says

Well said elliemae.

(Sorry, did you say free food too?)

(blush) I should have led with that.

Rew says

You confuse hate, for deep feeling and attachment. Dan cares enough to be critical.

Dan probably also prescribes to the tenant that one of things which makes America so great, is that we can so openly, and freely, challenge established belief and governance.

The guy who flat out says that he hates America isn't exactly loving the place. Those were his words, not mine, and he wasn't sarcastic either.

elliemae says

Only you would find a way to link the behaviors and actions of a mentally ill black man to all liberals simply because of his race.

We liberals don't all know each other and you can't flush us out of the bushes with your battle cries. Unless you yell "Section 8" and "I blame Obama" and "free food" really loudly... then we'll come running.

It's because liberals have put people onto government assistance, created a generation of people who live on government assistance and don't know another way to exist. Final result is just more widespread poverty and dependency. Nothing good came out of it, and it'll only get worse. And now entitled racist prick liberals are running around killing people when life gets a little tough, because all of a sudden their entitlements don't seem to pan out like they thought it should.

It's liberals who are creating this nightmare in America, and I'm not ok with that.

FortWayne says

It's because liberals have put people onto government assistance, created a generation of people who live on government assistance and don't know another way to exist.

Sources, please. And don't show me a photo of the rectum you pulled this out of.

socal2 says

Dan8267 says

It is the responsibility of the American South to fix the problems it created.

It already did.

The South kicked out the racist Democrats and is now much more prosperous and tolerant with Republican political leadership.

Exactly the kind of revisionist history lies that make the American South still worthy of scorn.

marcus says

Hyperbolic much ?

In your opinion, not mine. There are consequences to policies that last hundreds of years after those policies. There are also consequences to establishing vile cultures like the American South or Middle Eastern Islamic states. Culture matters, and it effects last for centuries even after the culture has died out. No one is born in an equal position to everyone else to equally wealthy families in equally sized houses with equal educational and career opportunities.

As far as I'm concerned, you cannot be forgiven from a sin while still benefiting from it. And yes, I'm speaking metaphorically.

elliemae says

Sources, please. And don't show me a photo of the rectum you pulled this out of.

Try Obama and other Democrat assholes if you need a photo. They've created this culture of dependency, a generation of inepts living on government assistance.

marcus says

I know you will not and can not do this

So if I do this, you'll admit your wrong, right?

marcus says

I know you will not and can not do this, but please outline a few of the most important steps that southerners need to do to address these problems, and exactly how these are any different from steps northerners or westerners need to take, and also how these steps have anything whatsoever to do with nostalgia for the confederacy or any of the complex emotions some southerners have for the war they lost and the hundreds of thousands that died in that war.

The only hard part if figuring out what you are asking given the above incoherent sentence. I'll give a reasonable effort, but if it's not good enough for you, then you need to talk more clearly.

The Confederate soldiers who lost their lives for the Confederacy and slavery wasted their lives. No whitewashing is going to change that fact. They were on the side of evil, no different from German soldiers in WWII. There is nothing that can be salvaged from that mistake except for future generations learning not to repeat it.

There are a number of things that can be done by the south to rectify the problems they created through slavery, segregation, and political, social, and economic discrimination and oppression. Many of these things can and should also be implemented throughout the country, but the degree in which they are needed is greater in the south. Others are specific to southern states. Here's a brief list, but I'm sure I can add extensively to it if I wanted to spend the time.

1. Stop all efforts at voter suppression laws masquerading as voter ID laws. Follow the intent of the Civil Rights Voting Act, not just the letter, and not just if the federal government makes them.
2. Stop the policy of police harassing minorities. Keep a written record of all police stops and if individual officers are disproportionately stopping non-criminal minorities, reprimand, retrain, or fire them.
3. End the war on drugs. It is an excuse to prevent minorities from voting as evident by the fact that minorities are disproportionately convicted and imprisoned for the same drug use as whites.
4. Stop flying the treasonous and racist Confederate navy jack, which became popular solely because the KKK started using it as their symbol.
5. Stop racist zoning practices that cause problems like Ferguson.
6. Stop embracing the culture of racism that is far more prevalent in the south.
7. Perform community policing where members of a community are the police that patrol the community rather than having white officers police black neighborhoods where they think everyone is the enemy. When the police live in the neighborhood they are policing and are of the same race and cultural background, they are less likely to think of citizens as the enemy.
8. Stop manufacturing thinly veiled racist propaganda.
9. Stop using code words like "thug" for "nigger". Also stop using dehumanizing language all together like "lazy" and "entitled". These code words are used far more in the south than elsewhere.
10. End this ridiculous opposition to socialist policies and social safety nets. Such opposition creates systemic poverty, which in turn creates violent crime. Both affects the next generation as well as the current.

So how's that for a start? Care to admit you were wrong about the whole "can't and won't" part? You should know by now, I never bluff.

The more Dan talks, the more delusional and naive he sounds.

FortWayne says

Hell, I bet Putin hates America less than Dan.

Less than Obama that's for sure.

Putin is a likable guy.
The world's biggest problem right now is an American president who needs to recreate all of yesterdays crisis to make his party relevant again.

Obama would love nothing more than a Nuclear stare down with China, Russia, Iraq or even NK so he can say he handled it like a Kennedy.
But the only -problem is Obama has proven time and time again he's no fucking Kennedy. Not even the bad drunk vehicle homicidal ones.

Obama is a ten dollars worth of shit in nickle toilet.

FortWayne says

elliemae says

Sources, please. And don't show me a photo of the rectum you pulled this out of.

Try Obama and other Democrat assholes if you need a photo.

So, then you don't have sources. This is why elliemae said you pulled this out of your ass, and she's right. You have some twisted fantasy about how the other team plays that does not even remotely resemble reality and when historic and present facts contradict that fantasy, you get all pissed off and flippant because you know you cannot square that circle.

Dan8267 says

So, then you don't have sources.

Who needs sources when you have rhetoric. :)

Dan8267 says

Exactly the kind of revisionist history lies that make the American South still worthy of scorn.

No revisionism. Just inconvenient facts for some people.

The South is more economically prosperous and less racist today under Republican leadership than they were 30+ years ago when Democrats had majorities in the State legislatures, Governorships and Congressional Seats in Southern States.

Reminder - more Republicans in the US House and Senate voted for the 1964 Civil Rights bill than Democrats. Al Gore Sr. voted against the Civil Rights act.

Today's Republicans ARE the Dixiecrats of the past. Once again, conservatives try to revise history.

FortWayne says

Hell, I bet Putin hates America less than Dan.

As I've stated many times, it is impossible to love or hate a country. On dumb asses think that the word loves applies to imaginary borders on a map.

That said, I'm sure you'd be much happier living under Putin's distopia than America today, and surely more than American tomorrow. You care more about the image of America than you do about actual Americans. That's not patriotism. It's blind nationalism.

FortWayne says

The more Dan talks, the more delusional and naive he sounds.

A smarter person would realize a statement like the above carries no weight if you don't justify it.

Dan8267 says

So if I do this, you'll admit your wrong, right?

I'm wrong I guess in that you attempted it. Here's the thing, most of your suggestions are good, and difficult, not just in the south, and they are good suggestions for everywhere.

Which ones do I think addressed how the south uniquely might address improving things ?

1) Does happen more in the south - but I don't see how it's connected to southern pride
4) but I disagree here and will explain below
("which became popular solely because the KKK started using it as their symbol") FALSE

The rest is really undo right wing anti poor policies everywhere and not unique to the south.

There's little here related to southern embracing their ancestry or the confederate flag, as a cause that needs to be undone or proof of why. Yes the flag is the Navy Jack, but it's also a lot like the battle flags of Virginia and Tennessee, and is sort of a blown up part of the major design (upper left corner - the part that's not all white) on the 2nd and 3rd flags of the confederacy.

According to recent polls:

As of the early 21st century, the "rebel flag" has become a highly divisive symbol in the United States.[39] In a national survey in 2015 across all races, 57% of Americans had the opinion that the second Confederate Navy Jack represented Southern pride rather than racism. A similar poll in 2000 had a nearly identical result of 59%. However, poll results from only the South yielded a completely different result - 75% of Southern whites described the flag as a symbol of pride, while 75% of Southern blacks said the flag represented racism.[40]

I agree that the confederate flag has no place in government, but I do believe that for many in the south it is about southern pride and about their culture which should not be boiled down to simply racist.

Southern towns are very segregated, with a black side of town, and with much larger percentages of African Americans and also larger percentages of white right winger racists than in northern urban areas. But I don't buy your simplistic assertion that this has much to do with glorifying the slavery practices of the past or celebrating their ancestors.

You can wave your hands and say obviously that's cause and effect, but I don't see it. I'm proof that it isn't always that way. I'm a northern liberal but I have an ancestor who died in the civil war(on the confederate side), and his wife was active in the politics of the south after that. I have some historical pride in this, but it doesn't mean that I think slavery would be remotely close to acceptable now. And yes slavery was ugly as is much of what has happened since to African Americans.

I guess from marketing or political point of view I appreciate what you're saying, because you're arguing for change in the positive direction. But you aren't speaking a truth that I agree with. As I said it's too hyperbolic. Too simplistic. Too black and white. This is my opinion.

I guarantee that of the 75% of the white folks that said the confederate flag is about southern pride, I guarantee that at least a third of them are fairly liberal politically. OF the 25% that don't think that it's about southern pride, I believe a majority probably aren't from the south. They just live there now.

marcus says

Dan8267 says

And you will continue to pay those costs until you fix the problem your slaver ancestor scum created. And until you do fix those problems and stop glorifying those ancestors and their despicable culture, you deserved to be judged just like them.

"slaver ancestor scum ?" Some "slavers" had friendships and love for some of their slaves, and treated them all fairly well (considering it's slavery). Could Steve Jobs say the same about any of the employees at iphone factories in China that committed suicide because conditions were so bad ?

How is everything so fricking black and white for you ? Was Steve Jobs scum ? He was willing to do what it takes to succeed, just like those plantation owners, except those Chines employees clearly had it worse than most American slaves. The word slave just means the people had no choice. You think it's any different for many of those people working for almost nothing over there ?

I finally bought my fist iphone (replacing android) recently. Am I therefore now evil too ?