patrick.net

saroya says

Heraclitusstudent says

It's time for Greece to stop blaming others and start carrying it's own weight.

How many times do we need to repeat this. In 1953 Germany was forgiven half of their debts of $160 Billion in today's dollars in debts instantly to pay for a bailout of debts owed from both WW I and WWII.

This isn't about Greece paying back a debt with a haircut in a timely order. It's about Greece wanting to continue their lavish lifestyle with more and more borrowed money. No one is gonna keep throwing good money after bad money for ever. It's time for Greece to use some common sense and live within their means.

Strategist says

There is no free lunch, and in the end, you only get what you produce.
Why are people unwilling to grasp something so obvious.

Says the guy who expects his home price to increase 6% a year for an indefinite future.... AHAHAHAHAH!

Strategist says

Heraclitusstudent says

It's time for Greece to stop blaming others and start carrying it's own weight.

How many times do we need to repeat this. In 1953 Germany was forgiven half of their debts of $160 Billion in today's dollars in debts instantly to pay for a bailout of debts owed from both WW I and WWII.

This isn't about Greece paying back a debt with a haircut in a timely order. It's about Greece wanting to continue their lavish lifestyle with more and more borrowed money. No one is gonna keep throwing good money after bad money for ever. It's time for Greece to use some common sense and live within their means

This is why default is the right thing to do. That will force them to live within their means.

This is why I oppose budget cuts for the IRS.

You should enforce the tax laws, or change them.

All Greek citizens feel, and rightly so, that wealthy citizens, as well as their own neighbors, are cheating on their taxes. So they feel like fools for not cheating.

In the end, the budget is fucked, and everybody thinks it's someone else's problem/fault.

gsr says

This is why default is the right thing to do. That will force them to live within their means.

Let them default, and let them get kicked out of the Euro. Lets see how far those fancy pensions take them when they are forced to start printing their own monopoly money with a picture of Socrates. Everyone will be a trillionaire like the Zambians.

Strategist says

Let them default, and let them get kicked out of the Euro. Lets see how far those fancy pensions take them when they are forced to start printing their own monopoly money with a picture of Socrates. Everyone will be a trillionaire like the Zambians.

You have no freaking idea. Zambians are actually doing very well, probably better than Greeks.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/p54676toIdo

http://www.blog.kpmgafrica.com/africas-top-10-fastest-growing-economies/

Strategist says

Pantheon

The Pantheon is in Rome. The Parthenon is in Athens.

Heraclitusstudent says

The average age of retirement was 53. Though it is no longer the case now, it is STILL lower than Germany. Why?

Because the Germans are the laziest people in the Industrialized World by hours worked, 33 of 34 OECD nations. Greeks work more than 2,000 hours per year, the third highest of all the OECD nations, just below South Korea.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17155304

Would have to be shorter, somewhere around 45, to match Germany in lifetime work hours. Germans enter the workforce in their mid to late 20s, Greeks as teenagers. Germans work around 40% less hours ; have more holidays, paid sick leave, vacation, maternity leave, etc.

That's because the Greeks are Farmers, Shopkeepers, Independent Fishermen - entrepreneurs, and the Germans are mostly employees.

thunderlips11 says

Because the Germans are the laziest people in the Industrialized World by hours worked, 33 of 34 OECD nations. Greeks work more than 2,000 hours per year

Since this has nothing to do with the problem at hand, this is an empty argument.
Can they pay for retirements at 53? No? Why do they expect "lazy" Germans to pay?
Are Germans an inferior race that deserves to be enslaved by Greece?

Heraclitusstudent says

Are Germans an inferior race that deserves to be enslaved by Greece?

Do harder working Greeks "Deserve" less than lazy Germans who spend their generous vacation time there?

You still need guys to drive the boat, haul the catch, chase the sheep. I know of no hotel or nightclub that uses Robots to make breakfast, mix drinks, shout "Everybody throw your hands in the air, and wave 'em like you just don't care", or toss out some Adidas Jacket wearing Mullet headed Euro Thug. You cannot herd sheep more efficiently with computers, and steep rocky hillsides don't lend themselves to tractors like the loamy soil of flat former forests.

Attending Eurolinux Con 2016 is not likely to make a Greek more productive picking olives.

Heraclitusstudent says

Since this has nothing to do with the problem at hand, this is an empty argument.

How does Iceland have a high standard of Living? They don't exactly pack 'em in on the beaches over there. They are more agriculturally dependent than the Greeks and don't receive flocks of overweight pasty German tourists in August. Yet, full fledged welfare state forever, both both before and after the Financial Sector boom and bust.

Heraclitusstudent says

Why do they ask Germans to pay for it?

Because Greeks are lazy fucks.

Ain't that the truth...

Heraclitusstudent says

Anyone can use words as they please.

Anyone care to guess if they default at the end of the month, or make their payment, or more extend and pretend?

It's not their fault. .the Greeks were borne with 'original laziness' passed down by that lazy fuck Socrashit....

zzyzzx says

Because Greeks are lazy fucks.

thunderlips11 says

Heraclitusstudent says

Are Germans an inferior race that deserves to be enslaved by Greece?

Do harder working Greeks "Deserve" less than lazy Germans who spend their generous vacation time there?

LOL Thunder. The Germans are not obliged to keep giving them money. All the Germans have to do is show them the finger.

thunderlips11 says

Do harder working Greeks "Deserve" less than lazy Germans who spend their generous vacation time there?

Yes they deserve less, because they produce less. Mexicans are hard working too, does that mean the USA needs to send them a welfare check?

zzyzzx says

Anyone care to guess if they default at the end of the month, or make their payment, or more extend and pretend?

More extend and pretend. :(

thunderlips11 says

Do harder working Greeks "Deserve" less than lazy Germans who spend their generous vacation time there?

You still need guys to drive the boat, haul the catch, chase the sheep. I know of no hotel or nightclub that uses Robots to make breakfast, mix drinks, shout "Everybody throw your hands in the air, and wave 'em like you just don't care", or toss out some Adidas Jacket wearing Mullet headed Euro Thug. You cannot herd sheep more efficiently with computers, and steep rocky hillsides don't lend themselves to tractors like the loamy soil of flat former forests.

Attending Eurolinux Con 2016 is not likely to make a Greek more productive picking olives.

Retirement was a luxury unavailable to most people that lived in pre-industrial societies. What decides whether retirement is possibible/sustainable is not so much how hard one worked but how productive one was in those working years (vs. the cost of living during retirement).

Reality says

LOL. Perhaps you forgot or were not aware that Chile's relative prosperity compared to the rest of Latin America was due to Pinochet's "enlightened dictatorship" implementing Chicago Boys' Free-Market economics that you hate so much. Pinochet had toppled Allende, who was trying to implement FDR-style socialist reforms.

You have to understand that most liberals are hypocrites, and despite their love for high taxes, they will flee a blue state just the same.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/16/greece-eurozone-exit-athens-imf

Greece’s spiralling debt crisis saw cash withdrawals total €400m on Monday.

Sofia, who runs a boutique in one of Athens’ wealthier suburbs, said she and her husband had €15,000 in a safe in the garage, “just to be sure we’re not caught out.”

I wish I had a wad of EU FIAT currency.

I need to find the definition of Wiemarism.

Chile? Bwahahaha! The purest Chicago libertarian experiment ever. Second-worst growth rate in South America between 1975 and 1980.

And then came the 1980s. Here is my favorite chart of the Chilean economy (source):

Consumption by Household Quintiles (percent distribution) (22) Quintile
______________1970_________1980_________1989
First (poorest)___7.6%_________5.2____________4.4
Second_______11.8___________9.3____________8.2
Third_________15.6__________13.6___________12.7
Fourth________20.5__________20.9___________20.1
Fifth (richest)___44.5__________51.0___________54.6

Chile's income inequality also became the worst on the continent. In 1980, the richest 10 percent took in 36.5 percent of the national income. By 1989, this had risen to 46.8 percent. By contrast, the bottom 50 percent of income earners saw their share fall from 20.4 to 16.8 percent over the same period.

Look at that chart - the bottom 60% of the economic ladder got completely fucked, and even the 4th quintile did no better under libertoonian constitutional conservatism!

thunderlips11 says

Do harder working Greeks "Deserve" less than lazy Germans who spend their generous vacation time there?

So your argument is that person A deserves to retire at 53 while person B needs to work until 65 to pay for person A because they worked smarter not harder?
I personally think this is spectacularly unfair, but in any case what you and I think doesn't matter, what matters is whether person B wants to pay.

I guess this would maybe be easier if person A was nice to person B, but the situation here is person A keeps insulting person B.
Tsipras keeps insulting the people he is asking money from, acting like the worse spoiled brat imaginable. The result: 80% of Germans do not want to provide more help to Greeks.

We'll see what pensions they have after defaulting. Sometime, people do get what they had coming.

thunderlips11 says

How does Iceland have a high standard of Living?

Iceland had banks full of bad loans, not pensions overloaded by people retiring in their 50s.
One is a financial abstraction. The other a day to day reality affecting the lives of millions of people.
If you don't see the difference I can't help.

Heraclitusstudent says

So your argument is that person A deserves to retire at 53 while person B needs to work until 65 to pay for person A because they worked smarter not harder?

I personally think this is spectacularly unfair, but in any case what you and I think doesn't matter, what matters is whether person B wants to pay.

Please re-read my posts. I explained why "Smarter not Harder" is not possible for waiters, sheep herders, and fishermen. I'll try again:

A Bank can pay for a computer program and pay users to auto-complete what was thousands of hours of tedious paperwork or provide quicker access to files.
A Waiter cannot use a computer program to deliver Schnapps to Ulrike Mittengrabben-Pfingerpoken's lounge chair in Corfu any faster.

Heraclitusstudent says

I guess this would maybe be easier if person A was nice to person B, but the situation here is person A keeps insulting person B.

Tsipras keeps insulting the people he is asking money from, acting like the worse spoiled brat imaginable. The result: 80% of Germans do not want to provide more help to Greeks.

Why one nation is rich and the other is poor is a matter of different history. Earlier in the thread we discussed the vast largess and preferential treatment that went to Germany, and the imposition of a corrupt nazi-collaborator government on Greece by British Force. Germany got debt forgiveness, debt cancellation, and excellent terms that encouraged widespread prosperity to millions of industrial workers; Greece got bombed, military aid to a military government which created a culture of political corruption and preferential treatment for the wealthy, and very different terms than what the (West) Germans got 1945-2000s.

Germans were bribed in the Cold War to stop Communism; Greeks were bombed in the Cold War to stop Communism.

Heraclitusstudent says

Iceland had banks full of bad loans, not pensions overloaded by people retiring in their 50s.

The trouble with Greece was the EU "Rescue" Loan, and the debt service on it. Most Greeks receive a pitiful pension of less than 700 Euros that was already cut in half and is below the poverty line according to EU rules.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/21/fight-save-greek-pension-centre-stage-brussels-athens

Greeks retire at 62, the same as Germany, and not 53 as bandied about in the Press, seemingly based on one comment at the NYT website:
http://www.oecd.org/els/emp/Summary_1970+values.xls

Iceland has one of the most generous pension systems in the entire world, almost 100% of average net earnings:
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-Issues/2010/1019/Europe-s-5-most-generous-pension-systems/Iceland

Germany is like the King's Servant in the Parables: He gets debt forgiveness from the Great Power, then turns around and squeezes those below him.

thunderlips11 says

Please re-read my posts. I explained why "Smarter not Harder" is not possible for waiters, sheep herders, and fishermen. I'll try again:

A Bank can pay for a computer program and pay users to auto-complete what was thousands of hours of tedious paperwork or provide quicker access to files.

A Waiter cannot use a computer program to deliver Schnapps to Ulrike Mittengrabben-Pfingerpoken's lounge chair in Corfu any faster.

This is a silly argument. There are no waiters in Germany? No one uses computers in Greece?
No, you are just saying the waiter in Germany needs to pay for the banker in Greece.

I repeat: this is spectacularly unfair.

thunderlips11 says

Earlier in the thread we discussed the vast largess and preferential treatment that went to Germany, and the imposition of a corrupt nazi-collaborator government on Greece by British Force.

This is total BS. The pension setup is not the result of WWII and their failure to resolve it is not the failure of WWII. Stop searching for silly excuses in a distant past. They just need to elect people who focus on the actual problems instead of blaming others.

thunderlips11 says

The trouble with Greece was the EU "Rescue" Loan, and the debt service on it. Most Greeks receive a pitiful pension of less than 700 Euros that was already cut in half and is below the poverty line according to EU rules.

As I said above the debt service in Greece last year was not higher as a percent of GDP than France or Italy.
Repeat after me: The problem is NOT the debt.

Pensions at 700 Euros: how much is it in Bulgaria?
By the same token why isn't Greece paying countries where people are starving to death for free, or waiting the next garbage truck to scavenge their next batch of 'fresh' food.

Heraclitusstudent says

This is a silly argument. There are no waiters in Germany? No one uses computers in Greece?

No, you are just saying the waiter in Germany needs to pay for the banker in Greece.

I repeat: this is spectacularly unfair.

The problem is not with bankers in Greece, but with ordinary Greeks. I didn't see many Deutsche Bank bigwigs taking a big hit in the financial crisis, which they were intimately and extensively involved with creating. Greek Banks were and are a negligible influence on the World Economy.

It is spectacularly unfair that Germany has received so much special treatment, yet is willing to give so little.

Heraclitusstudent says

This is total BS. The pension setup is not the result of WWII and their failure to resolve it is not the failure of WWII. Stop searching for silly excuses in a distant past. They just need to elect people who focus on the actual problems instead of blaming others.

Has everything to do with it, and it's not in the distant past, but the recent past. Things that happened in the lifetime of millions still living today.

The pension in Greece is not overly generous and never has been. Germany can support an excellent social system precisely because it was given massive amounts of largess outright, guaranteed export buys, total forgiveness on all the debts it owed from Wars it itself started, and very very generous terms on loans and special treatment for 60 years. Greece did not receive these things, despite having one of the most successful and militant anti-Nazi forces in Europe.

thunderlips11 says

Has everything to do with it, and it's not in the distant past, but the recent past. Things that happened in the lifetime of millions still living today.

Your knowledge of history, and emotional reaction to relative poverty, is blinding you to the obvious facts that went on in Greece this past decade. The opportunities they had and how they treated (and are still treating) other countries.

Heraclitusstudent says

Your knowledge of history, and emotional reaction to relative poverty, is blinding you to the obvious facts that went on in Greece this past decade. The opportunities they had and how they treated (and are still treating) other countries.

I don't know how you can dismiss the extensive handouts, debt forgiveness, ultra-low interest on decades of delayed loan repayments, directed investments and purchases, and other special treatment Germany has received since WW2 as a nothing burger in their success.

The Germans ought to be thanking the US and UK for not imposing the Morgenthau plan; instead the Germans think they dids it all bys themselfs.

DieBankOfAmericaPhukkingDie says

Fuck the Huns!

Make them pay the debts they were forgiven!

Can we invade through Switzerland?

I feel strongly that Switzerland is United States soil: "We're gonna remain neutral in a conflict where one side is genocidal fascists, but we'll still take bank deposits from whomever. And good luck getting your money after the war, Joos! Bwahahahaha!"

Give Lucerne to the Walton family and turn Zurich into a U.S. federal prison and Section 8 housing.

thunderlips11 says

I don't know how you can dismiss the extensive handouts, debt forgiveness, ultra-low interest on decades of delayed loan repayments, directed investments and purchases, and other special treatment Germany has received since WW2 as a nothing burger in their success.

Yeah because Germany was not bombed, with entire cities destroyed, with millions killed, with infrastructures devastated, with the country partitioned, and the government changed to a new one that shared none of the ideology of the third Reich. All while Greece received no help.
Yeah that really explains the divergence of these 2 countries.
Well, no it doesn't.

Heraclitusstudent says

Yeah because Germany was not bombed, with entire cities destroyed, with millions killed, with infrastructures devastated, with the country partitioned, and the government changed to a new one that shared none of the ideology of the third Reich. All while Greece received no help.

Germany was bombed for a good reason, though it did little. German industry increased productivity every month of the war until the last few months mostly due to resource shortages due to take over of critical areas like the Polesti oil fields, not bombing. Strategic Bombing, from the Bomber Box of WW2 to Operation Linebacker, has always failed to be decisive. The real contribution of Strategic Bombing, at an unbelievable cost in the lives of Allied Airmen (8th USAAF deadliest service of the war for America) was to draw German Air Power away from their skill at battlefield air superiority and close air support towards defensive interceptors, while grinding down their Pilot Pool.

In fact, the German economy was in such great shape from lavish US Grants and Aid, that by the mid 50s Germany was importing Turks to work in factories and farms.

Germany looted Greece thoroughly, and imposed a massive forced loan on the country that was never paid back. Nor has it paid back reparations of the execution of countless Greeks.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/greek-study-provides-evidence-of-forced-loans-to-nazis-a-1024762.html

German recalcitrance is providing others with an opportunity, however:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11526546/Putin-returns-Nazi-looted-icon-to-Greek-prime-minister.html

And doing a helluva job reminding everybody of the negatives the last time Europe was under the control of Germany.

thunderlips11 says

The real contribution of Strategic Bombing, at an unbelievable cost in the lives of Allied Airmen (8th USAAF deadliest service of the war for America) was to draw German Air Power away from their skill at battlefield air superiority and close air support towards defensive interceptors, while grinding down their Pilot Pool.

Again you are getting lost in irrelevant details of history.

This Tsipras guy is a child throwing tantrums.
He's actually announcing a referendum on obeying rules that were already agreed by Greece in a treaty, and doing so after the date at which is country is bankrupt anyway.
.... And he recommends a vote for a path that would essentially destroy Greece economy... just because he's unwilling to take that responsibility himself.
The guy is totally unable to take a pragmatic decision based on a given reality.

I feel sorry for the Greek people.

anonymous says

Representative democracy offers choices with no consequences: no matter which politico and party is elected, the promises of endless swag remain unchanged.

In contrast, direct democracy offers choices with consequences: voters make a choice of policies that, whether intended or not, have consequences.

Direct democracy could work if someone actually explained people how the world works and what the consequences are. Which is exactly what will never happen: you have demagogs, saying this banks faults, this is Merkel's fault, this is because Greece was bombed 70 yrs ago, etc, etc... and you just have to vote NO to regain your dignity, and the economy will rebound right back.

This is how you get to situations where a majority of Greeks want to stay in the euro but also want austerity to end. i.e. a large part of the electorate doesn't even know these are mutually exclusive.

In any case this referendum comes after the decision will already be taken in the facts. If Tsipras was not a cynical idiot, he would have called this vote in May, the question should have been "Do you want the Euro AND the attached austerity program?" and he should explained clearly the consequences of saying no.

Heraclitusstudent says

this is because Greece was bombed 70 yrs ago

That's what amazes me: domestic tax collection is a disaster in Greece and, on the spending end, there is no accountability for any public official who says "More, more more" all day. Greece has been governed by incompetent, corrupt, unaccountable shits for several decades.

Yet this is a problem created by the bad ol' Nazis.