patrick.net

Strategist says

We trusted N Korea and look what happened? It's time we learnt from our mistakes.

Eh? Since when did the US trust North Korea? And what happened?

Strategist says

Iran's safety lies with her not developing nukes, because they will be attacked by Israel with nukes if necessary. Trying to reason with religious fanatics like the Ayatollahs is a waste of time. They only understand the rule of the sword.

What? Iran shouldn't develop nuclear weapons because it might be nuked by a country that shouldn't have nuclear weapons. Is that what you just said?

HydroCabron says

Strategist says

Wow. We trusted N Korea and look what happened?

Yes - I was near one of the cities destroyed when North Korea launched the nuclear attack which killed millions of Americans.

That is exactly what will happen when people who think there are 72 virgins in heaven get their hands on nukes. Kim Jong Un and his merry band, unlike Islamists love their lives.

Bigsby says

Strategist says

Iran's safety lies with her not developing nukes, because they will be attacked by Israel with nukes if necessary. Trying to reason with religious fanatics like the Ayatollahs is a waste of time. They only understand the rule of the sword.

What? Iran shouldn't develop nuclear weapons because it might be nuked by a country that shouldn't have nuclear weapons. Is that what you just said?

Ha ha ha.
It's OK for Israel to have nukes because they are for defensive purposes. It's not OK for Iran to have nukes because they are for offensive purposes.
I hope that clears things up.

Strategist says

That is exactly what will happen when people who think there are 72 virgins in heaven get their hands on nukes. Kim Jong Un and his merry band, unlike Islamists love their lives.

How is that really any different to the kind of thinking trotted out by end of times Christians?

Strategist says

It's OK for Israel to have nukes because they are for defensive purposes. It's not OK for Iran to have nukes because they are for offensive purposes.

I hope that clears things up.

Absolute bullshit.

Strategist says

Trying to reason with religious fanatics like the Ayatollahs is a waste of time. They only understand the rule of the sword.

This is precisely how some of us now feel about the current Republican base.

Someone who believes we're living in the end times, and that the final battle foretold in Revelation is imminent, is a whackaloon, impervious to reason, and may need to be physically restrained.

Bigsby says

Eh? Since when did the US trust North Korea? And what happened?

North Korea sold nuke and missile technology to a bunch of authoritarians making the world a more dangerous place.

Bigsby says

Strategist says

That is exactly what will happen when people who think there are 72 virgins in heaven get their hands on nukes. Kim Jong Un and his merry band, unlike Islamists love their lives.

How is that really any different to the kind of thinking trotted out by end of time Christians?

Not much difference. But the end of time Christians are not an existential threat to anyone. They don't have the final say when it comes to pushing the nuclear button.

HydroCabron says

Strategist says

Trying to reason with religious fanatics like the Ayatollahs is a waste of time. They only understand the rule of the sword.

This is precisely how some of us now feel about the current Republican base.

Someone who believes we're living in the end times, and that the final battle foretold in Revelation is imminent, is a whackaloon, impervious to reason, and may need to be physically restrained.

I am with you on this point. It does not in any way change the threat we face from Iran.

Strategist says

the end of time Christians are not an existential threat to anyone

They are a wart on the ass of society.

They believe environmental regulation is stupid, and that Israel must be supported, no matter the cost to the taxpayers and the future of the human race.

They are filth.

Bigsby says

How is that really any different to the kind of thinking trotted out by end of time Christians?

Christians believe the apocalypse comes at the will of God and Man has no control over it.

Iranian Shia nutballs (and ISIS) think it is Man's job to create the apocalypse to bring back their messiah.

Kind of a massive difference - don't ya think?

socal2 says

North Korea sold nuke and missile technology to a bunch of authoritarians making the world a more dangerous place.

That wasn't a result of being trusted by the US.

socal2 says

Christians believe the apocalypse comes at the will of God and Man has no control over it.

Around 30% of the Republic base actively supports Israel in order that the battle of Tel Megiddo can go forth.

They are actively seeking to make prophecy manifest in reality.

Bigsby says

That wasn't a result of being trusted by the US.

That was the result of letting yet another authoritarian nutball regime develop nukes. Once they get nukes, they are untouchable.

Once Iran gets nukes, the Sunni Arab nations like Saudi Arabia will develop nukes.

We have a small window from preventing major proliferation of nukes among the world's most primitive and brutal Islamist regimes.

socal2 says

Christians believe the apocalypse comes at the will of God and Man has no control over it.

Iranian Shia nutballs (and ISIS) think it is Man's job to create the apocalypse to bring back their messiah.

Kind of a massive difference - don't ya think?

No, not really. They both have ridiculous views. And a lot of Christian end of timers seem rather hell bent on pushing the process along in the ME given the kind of policies they encourage. Which potential leader has more fire power at their finger tips? Which leader in recent history made much greater use of it? Who killed tens/hundreds of thousands of people? Who destabilized an entire region?

Bigsby says

socal2 says

North Korea sold nuke and missile technology to a bunch of authoritarians making the world a more dangerous place.

That wasn't a result of being trusted by the US.

Sure it was. Clinton negotiated the deal. We paid them off and they agreed not to develop nukes. They took our money and developed the nukes anyway. They sold nuke and missile technology to Pakistan and Iran for even more money.

socal2 says

That was the result of letting yet another authoritarian nutball regime develop nukes. Once they get nukes, they are untouchable.

And how exactly do you suggest they could have been stopped? The tech is out there. Given enough desire and money...

Strategist says

Sure it was. Clinton negotiated the deal. We paid them off and they agreed not to develop nukes. They took our money and developed the nukes anyway. They sold nuke and missile technology to Pakistan and Iran for even more money.

Don't be daft. Signing an agreement doesn't mean two countries then trust each other, let alone the US and N. Korea.

Never again will I trust a Democrat politician or a government official.

Spend some more time reflecting on why you trusted them in the first place

Bigsby says

socal2 says

That was the result of letting yet another authoritarian nutball regime develop nukes. Once they get nukes, they are untouchable.

And how exactly do you suggest they could have been stopped? The tech is out there. Given enough desire and money...

Regime change would be one way with N. Korea. With Iran, a regime that puts ideology above life is the real problem.

HydroCabron says

Around 30% of the Republic base actively supports Israel in order that the battle of Tel Megiddo can go forth.

So dumb it hurts.

Most Republicans (and non retarded Democrats) support Israel because they recognize that Israel is the most enlightened and Western culture in the entire Middle East. They also recognize that without US support, the Jews in Israel will end up like the rest of the religious minorities in the Middle East - i.e. ethnically cleansed or trapped on a mountain top like Yazidis facing sexual slavery or beheadings.

Strategist says

Regime change would be one way with N. Korea. With Iran, a regime that puts ideology above life is the real problem.

Ha. How exactly?

Bigsby says

Strategist says

Sure it was. Clinton negotiated the deal. We paid them off and they agreed not to develop nukes. They took our money and developed the nukes anyway. They sold nuke and missile technology to Pakistan and Iran for even more money.

Don't be daft. Signing an agreement doesn't mean two countries then trust each other, let alone the US and N. Korea.

That is exactly what the Republicans who wrote the letter are saying. Who in their right minds could trust the Ayatollahs?

Strategist says

Clinton negotiated the deal. We paid them off and they agreed not to develop nukes.

Hahaha!

You forgot the part about how the arrangement was working fine, until Bush insulted them to their faces and they went ahead and re-started weapons development.

And with good reason: If Dumbass was willing to attack a regime without WMD's (on the grounds that they had WMD's!) then North Korea's behavior was quite rational.

Thanks, Rummy/Wolfowitz/Cheney, for attacking a country without nukes while encouraging nuclear weapons development in a country which did!

sbh says

A distinction between insanities without a difference.

Says the liberal moron that wants to lump all religious people into one group as a pejorative?

errc says

Never again will I trust a Democrat politician or a government official.

Hard to argue with this, but why trust Republic politicians either?

socal2 says

Says the liberal moron that wants to lump all religious people into one group as a pejorative?

Er, what did you just say about the Shias of Iran?

Bigsby says

Strategist says

Regime change would be one way with N. Korea. With Iran, a regime that puts ideology above life is the real problem.

Ha. How exactly?

Almost impossible. We should assassinate Kim Jong Un, which we know Obama will not. In Iran's case, they dismantle all nukes or we destroy them.
I stress, Iran is the real threat here. My point was, if you can't trust N. Korea, why the hell are we trusting fanatical Iran to stick to any agreement.

Strategist says

That is exactly what the Republicans who wrote the letter are saying. Who in their right minds could trust the Ayatollahs?

You don't have to trust each other to come to an agreement. Iran is a country that should be engaged because it is a hugely important regional player. What sense does it make not to attempt rapprochement?

Strategist says

I stress, Iran is the real threat here. My point was, if you can't trust N. Korea, why the hell are we trusting fanatical Iran to stick to any agreement.

Iran is far less fanatical than some Arab nations...

Someone sure likes to press the dislike button, irrespective of the comment seemingly...

Bigsby says

Er, what did you just say about the Shias of Iran?

I stated what their "Supreme Leader" believes about Man creating conditions for the apocalypse to bring back the "Hidden Imam".

That is a major tenant of their dogma.

Bigsby says

Iran is far less fanatical than some Arab nations.

Really? The same fuckers that put Fatwas on Salmun Rushdie? Those guys? Here are some other nice gems from the slightly less fanatic.

http://www.theatlantic.com/jeffrey-goldberg/

Mohammad Khatami, the former president of Iran: “If we abide by real legal laws, we should mobilize the whole Islamic world for a sharp confrontation with the Zionist regime … if we abide by the Koran, all of us should mobilize to kill.” (2000)

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei: “It is the mission of the Islamic Republic of Iran to erase Israel from the map of the region.” (2001)

Hassan Nasrallah, a leader of Hezbollah: “If they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.” (2002)

Nasrallah: “Israel is our enemy. This is an aggressive, illegal, and illegitimate entity, which has no future in our land. Its destiny is manifested in our motto: ‘Death to Israel.’” (2005)

Yahya Rahim Safavi, the former commander of Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps: “With God’s help the time has come for the Zionist regime’s death sentence.” (2008)

Mohammad Hassan Rahimian, Khamenei’s representative to the Moustazafan Foundation: “We have manufactured missiles that allow us, when necessary to replace [sic] Israel in its entirety with a big holocaust.” (2010)

Mohammad Reza Naqdi, the commander of the Basij paramilitary force: “We recommend them [the Zionists] to pack their furniture and return to their countries. And if they insist on staying, they should know that a time while arrive when they will not even have time to pack their suitcases.” (2011)

Khamenei: “The Zionist regime is a cancerous tumor and it will be removed.” (2012)

Ahmad Alamolhoda, a member of the Assembly of Experts: “The destruction of Israel is the idea of the Islamic Revolution in Iran and is one of the pillars of the Iranian Islamic regime. We cannot claim that we have no intention of going to war with Israel.” (2013)

Nasrallah: “The elimination of Israel is not only a Palestinian interest. It is the interest of the entire Muslim world and the entire Arab world.” (2013)

Hojateleslam Alireza Panahian, the advisor to Office of the Supreme Leader in Universities: “The day will come when the Islamic people in the region will destroy Israel and save the world from this Zionist base.” (2013)

Hojatoleslam Ali Shirazi, Khamenei’s representative in the Revolutionary Guard: “The Zionist regime will soon be destroyed, and this generation will be witness to its destruction." (2013)

Khamenei: “This barbaric, wolflike & infanticidal regime of Israel which spares no crime has no cure but to be annihilated.” (2014)

Hossein Salami, the deputy head of the Revolutionary Guard: "We will chase you [Israelis] house to house and will take revenge for every drop of blood of our martyrs in Palestine, and this is the beginning point of Islamic nations awakening for your defeat." (2014)

Salami: "Today we are aware of how the Zionist regime is slowly being erased from the world, and indeed, soon, there will be no such thing as the Zionist regime on Planet Earth." (2014)

Hossein Sheikholeslam, the secretary-general of the Committee for Support for the Palestinian Intifada: "The issue of Israel's destruction is important, no matter the method. We will obviously implement the strategy of the Imam Khomeini and the Leader [Khamenei] on the issue of destroying the Zionists. The region will not be quiet so long as Israel exists in it ..." (2014)

Mohammad Ali Jafari, the commander-in-chief of the Revolutionary Guard: "The Revolutionary Guards will fight to the end of the Zionist regime ... We will not rest easy until this epitome of vice is totally deleted from the region's geopolitics." (2015)

socal2 says

Bigsby says

Er, what did you just say about the Shias of Iran?

I stated what their "Supreme Leader" believes about Man creating conditions for the apocalypse to bring back the "Hidden Imam".

That is a major tenant of their dogma.

You said 'Iranian Shia nutballs..' and then complained about Hydro's supposed pejorative attack on Christians...

Bigsby says

You don't have to trust each other to come to an agreement. Iran is a country that should be engaged because it as hugely important regional player. What sense does it make not to attempt rapprochement?

I agree. But we need to draw a red line at some point.

Bigsby says

Iran is far less fanatical than some Arab nations...

I agree. We will deal with them if they start developing nukes. But right now it's Iran.

Bigsby says

Someone sure likes to press the dislike button, irrespective of the comment seemingly...

Wasn't me. I seldom give dislikes, and I never delete posts.

Hard to argue with this, but why trust Republic politicians

Agree

socal2 says

Really? The same fuckers that put Fatwas on Salmun Rushdie? Those guys? Here are some other nice gems from the slightly less fanatic.

Oh, right and you couldn't possibly draw up an interesting list regarding countries that the US happily engages with in the Middle East. No, no, of course not.

How much of what you've posted do you think is just sabre rattling and grandstanding given the politics of the region? There is a core in Iran that is intrinsically far more Western looking than in many other countries in the region. That should be engaged and developed.

Bigsby says

There is a core in Iran that is intrinsically far more Western looking than in other countries in the region. That should be engaged and developed.

Yes, and they are being engaged. It's tough to break the control the regime has. The Iranians in the US have a head on their shoulders too, unlike the wackos from other parts of the Mid East. Most Iranians I have known are atheists.

Bigsby says

There is a core in Iran that is intrinsically far more Western looking than in many other countries in the region. That should be engaged and developed.

I'm well aware. My next door neighbor is Persian and fled the Mullah nutballs in 1978 along with the majority of Iranian Jews, secularists, Bahai's. Obama blew a big chance to empower the moderates back in 2009 when they were protesting in the streets.

Allowing the Mullahs to gain nukes is the best way to ensure the Mullahs stay in power over the moderates for the next half century - just like how the North Korean regime has held on for so long.