patrick.net

There are plans in California for the provision of 68 hydrogen stations to allow FCV drivers to get around the state with confidence; that number is considered the tipping point for private ­investment to take over.

Let us know when Toyota opens the Jovian hydrogen mines.

John Bailo says

Hydrogen cars green transport closer to reality

I note they didn't mention the very non green production of hydrogen anywhere in the article. I wonder why?

John, why do you keep insisting on hydrogen power, when multiple people have already pointed out there are insurmountable problems with it? Physical problems, as in Physics, not just technical problems.

As with most (all?) issues on Pat.net, it really comes down to STEM graduates.

Hydrogen is the second-most abundant element in the universe, next to STEM graduates. Converting STEM graduates into hydrogen would solve our energy needs while reducing the demand for escorts.

HydroCabron says

As with most (all?) issues on Pat.net, it really comes down to STEM graduates.

Hydrogen is the second-most abundant element in the universe, next to STEM graduates. Converting STEM graduates into hydrogen would solve our energy needs while reducing the demand for escorts.

Unfortunately that would require alchemy which requires conditions only found in the cores of stars.

Sure we could build such a chamber but then you'd need STEM graduates to design, build, run and maintain it so it'd end up being a STEM make work boondoggle.

thunderlips11 says

John, why do you keep insisting on hydrogen power, when multiple people have already pointed out there are insurmountable problems with it? Physical problems, as in Physics, not just technical problems.

John can't argue the technical challenges, only to point out big companies are plowing money into the problem so surely the technical challenges will be solved.

Just like how big aircraft manufacturers plowed billions of dollars into SST (super sonic transport) back in the 1960s. Even though a few planes were built and entered service very few people could afford (or had a need for) a ticket to ride.

New Renter says

John can't argue the technical challenges...

Cheap Solar Cells Offer Hydrogen Hope

Enter the clean energy savior du jour: perovskites, which have a wide band gap, enabling each cell to produce a relatively beefy voltage of up to 1.5 V. What’s more, they rely on a cheap and easy-to-manufacture light-absorbing layer such as methyl ammonium lead iodide. (The cell’s name refers to this material’s crystal structure). And since 2009, improvements in the chemistry and design of the cells’ various layers have pushed their efficiency from just 3.8 percent to a whopping 17.9 percent, with some labs reporting unconfirmed results up to 19 percent.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/green-tech/solar/cheap-solar-cells-offer-hydrogen-hope

bob2356 says

I note they didn't mention the very non green production of hydrogen anywhere in the article.

Hydrogen is not just a fuel. It's an Energy Protocol. The way tcp/ip is a communications protocol for the Internet.

Anyone can make it in many different ways and anyone can consume it, in many different ways. From 100% clean generation using solar, to very effective and efficient steam reforming using natural gas as a base. And remember, gasoline doesn't come from the ground.

New Renter says

Unfortunately that would require alchemy which requires conditions only found in the cores of stars.

I was merely thinking of burning STEM graduates in furnaces to power turbines, which would then produce H through electrolysis.

But why not allow STEM graduates to coalesce into stellar-mass size spheres, which could then be used to warm the world through fusion?

HydroCabron says

I was merely thinking of burning STEM graduates

It would certainly elevate my value, so I'm all for it, so long as I get a "let".

Start with the imported contractors first, then script kiddies, then psychologists, then ...

John Bailo says

Anyone can make it in many different ways

But none of them efficient, by quantity produced or cost. See below.
John Bailo says

anyone can consume it

I just did, combined with Oxygen. That's the problem, John. Hydrogen doesn't like to be alone.

John Bailo says

natural gas as a base

The most efficient way to extract it - but still you get less energy cracking it from methane than burning the methane itself.

Without a super sized tube going all the way to the sun, hydrogen is not a free resource; it needs to be made by hydrolysis, stream reforming of methane, and/or water gas shift reaction with CO. And then, there are storage problems, etc.

Given the fact that there's over 200 years of coal underground and that the first major coal-to-gasoline, aka synfuel, plant is going live in West VA in 2016, there's no drive/need for a hydrogen economy.

thunderlips11 says

instead of the Public Transportation world that is certainly coming

Gag me with a spoon, good Lord what dismal view. Little trolley cars, buses, light rail - yuck. Hope I die LONG before your vision comes to pass.

John Bailo says

Hydrogen is not just a fuel. It's an Energy Protocol. The way tcp/ip is a communications protocol for the Internet.

Anyone can make it in many different ways and anyone can consume it, in many different ways. From 100% clean generation using solar, to very effective and efficient steam reforming using natural gas as a base. And remember, gasoline doesn't come from the ground.

In a pie in the sky world maybe, but the only cost effective way to make hydrogen right now is to use energy (mostly from burning polluting gas or coal) to extract it from ng which is an energy source on its own. remember steam doesn't come from the ground either, at least not where they are producing hydrogen.

An energy protocol? You've been watching way too many star trek reruns.

thunderlips11 says

You alluded to it in your first paragraph - it allows people to think they can still drive cars, instead of the Public Transportation world that is certainly coming.

Oh, you just stepped in it there.

Mentioning a possible future reality without our sexiest toy is a no-no.

The commercialization of modern supercapacitors will completely revolutionize battery technology, which is all that electric cars have been waiting for. 300 miles on a battery that charges in 3 minutes. Why the hell would you want to muck about with hydrogen if you could have that instead? And the best part: they don't require rare earth minerals or expensive components. Just carbon and silicon, two of the most abundant atoms on the planet.
Hydrogen everything will be dead in ten years.

Rin says

Without a super sized tube going all the way to the sun, hydrogen is not a free resource; it needs to be made by hydrolysis, stream reforming of methane, and/or water gas shift reaction with CO. And then, there are storage problems, etc.

Given the fact that there's over 200 years of coal underground and that the first major coal-to-gasoline, aka synfuel, plant is going live in West VA in 2016, there's no drive/need for a hydrogen economy.

You've mentioned the Fischer-Tropsch process as a means to make synfuel. In that reaction carbon monoxide and hydrogen gas are used to make alkanes (liquid fuels),:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer%E2%80%93Tropsch_process

If that's the case a lot of hydrogen will be needed.

There's some chance this New Renter says

You've mentioned the Fischer-Tropsch process as a means to make synfuel. In that reaction carbon monoxide and hydrogen gas are used to make alkanes

Coal to liquids can be achieved through multiple pathways.

All of them release twice as much CO2 into the atmosphere per unit of gasoline produced and consumed, so we can bring Venus-like conditions to Earth more quickly. Knowing what I know of the human race, it's probably the future: Conservatives will love it!

If only there were a way to transport electricity over distances, or to generate it directly from rooftop installations for the purposes of charging vehicle batteries.

But as yet we have no infrastructure for transporting electricity to homes - electrons just don't move - and we probably never will. Since solar panels haven't been invented yet, there is no decentralized way to charge vehicles. So hydrogen fuels cell will be necessary, I'm afraid.

Thank god for the oil companies! They will save us!

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

Chicks want the 0-150 MPH in 3 seconds performance of electric cars.

Nuclear powered steam catapults work too..

If I was a betting man, I probably wouldn't put my money in hydrogen's corner. But one thing is clear about the future; we're going to be relying more on renewables (at least if we want to create a less carbon intensive future). When we're talking about renewables, you're harvesting energy flows which by their nature ARE intermittent. This implies either: a means of energy storage, or redundant infrastructure (see Germany). Energy storage is certainly an area where an energy carrier like hydrogen could play a part. It's really wide open right now. I certainly don't believe in a one size fits all approach; a lot depends on siting and the use for the stored energy (See molten salts for "running" solar thermal plants into the evening). The last article I read about novel energy storage involved giant balloons at offshore wind farms (not to mention a high voltage undersea DC line that will soon be running along the east coast). I'm not going long termites, but then again, I wouldn't bet against a creature that's made mincement out of million dollar mansions. YMMV.

New Renter says

In that reaction carbon monoxide and hydrogen gas are used to make alkanes (liquid fuels),:

A big part of that is the water gas shift reaction which skews the H2 to CO ratio, using H2O.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-gas_shift_reaction

I know that Sasol's been investing in capturing the CO2 to lower their emissions.

Rin says

New Renter says

In that reaction carbon monoxide and hydrogen gas are used to make alkanes (liquid fuels),:

A big part of that is the water gas shift reaction which skews the H2 to CO ratio, using H2O.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-gas_shift_reaction

I know that Sasol's been investing in capturing the CO2 to lower their emissions.

The sad thing is the absolute best medium for long term carbon storage is as coal.

New Renter says

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

Chicks want the 0-150 MPH in 3 seconds performance of electric cars.

Nuclear powered steam catapults work too..

Pollution free no less. Well there is just a little bit of radioactive waste, but we won't mention that.

bob2356 says

New Renter says

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

Chicks want the 0-150 MPH in 3 seconds performance of electric cars.

Nuclear powered steam catapults work too..

Pollution free no less. Well there is just a little bit of radioactive waste, but we won't mention that.

You say waste, I say 4th gen reactor fuel....

New Renter says

You say waste, I say 4th gen reactor fuel....

Gen IV's still create radioactive waste. The advantage (allegedly) is it's only dangerous for 500 years not 5000.

bob2356 says

New Renter says

You say waste, I say 4th gen reactor fuel....

Gen IV's still create radioactive waste. The advantage (allegedly) is it's only dangerous for 500 years not 5000.

You say 4th gen waste, I say 5th gen fuel.

Toyota says, not if...when...

Are You A Handbrake, Or A Trailblazer?

http://youtu.be/BKXedfxvRFM

John Bailo says

Toyota says, not if...when...

Are You A Handbrake, Or A Trailblazer?

http://youtu.be/BKXedfxvRFM

You tell me:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/ckAwT9AkRgE

Sometimes, in retrospect you really, really wish you had used the brake.

Goodbye coal, oil? Team tests cheaper way to use sunlight to produce hydrogen (+video)

Using sunlight to produce hydrogen is a way to capture the sun's energy and store it for future use, much as a plant captures sunlight and through photosynthesis uses the sun's energy to produce hydrocarbons – the basis of fossil fuels.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2014/0926/Goodbye-coal-oil-Team-tests-cheaper-way-to-use-sunlight-to-produce-hydrogen-video?cmpid=FB

John Bailo says

Goodbye coal, oil? Team tests cheaper way to use sunlight to produce hydrogen (+video)

Using sunlight to produce hydrogen is a way to capture the sun's energy and store it for future use, much as a plant captures sunlight and through photosynthesis uses the sun's energy to produce hydrocarbons – the basis of fossil fuels.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2014/0926/Goodbye-coal-oil-Team-tests-cheaper-way-to-use-sunlight-to-produce-hydrogen-video?cmpid=FB

You did read the part about proof of concept. If it works out great, but it's meaningless right now. Seems to me the advance is in solar cells not the production of hydrogen. Seems to me that would allow you to just use the solar cell directly without the intermediate step of using hydrogen other than for energy storage.

bob2356 says

Seems to me that would allow you to just use the solar cell directly without the intermediate step of using hydrogen other than for energy storage.

Another voice joins the choir.

New Renter says

bob2356 says

Seems to me that would allow you to just use the solar cell directly without the intermediate step of using hydrogen other than for energy storage.

Another voice joins the choir.

Which choir is that? If hydrogen makes economic and ecological sense then great, go hydrogen. Right now it doesn't and all the cheerleading in the world won't change that. I'm all in favor of continuing research on all renewable forms of energy. You never know when or where a breakthrough will come.