patrick.net

Airfare has been going up over the last five years while seat room has been decreasing. And so passengers are paying more for less. That is a shitty deal and it will come back to bite the airlines. Already cramped passengers are lashing out, but not at the right target.

There are of course minor fluctuations in prices. Besides, airfare is driven by supply and demand. They can practically buy as much space as they want. It is a matter of consumer choice.

JetBlue offers up to 39 inches of legroom for a small fee. Is that not enough?

Blurtman says

Airfare has been going up over the last five years while seat room has been decreasing. And so passengers are paying more for less. That is a shitty deal and it will come back to bite the airlines. Already cramped passengers are lashing out, but not at the right target.

Don't forget the baggage fees. Two bags used to be free, in fact, they used to encourage it. Now it's over $50 on most - for domestic.

(Yes, there's the baggage check at the gate trick. As more people use it, I expect the airlines to nix it.)

thunderlips11 says

Don't forget the baggage fees. Two bags used to be free, in fact, they used to encourage it. Now it's over $50 on most - for domestic.

Yes, this is why I pack light. We rarely have to check anything. They should rigorously enforce the carry-on luggage size and weight. What people try to bring with them is ridiculous.

To be fair, they should charge separately for:

1. passenger weight and size
2. carry-on luggage weight and size
3. check-in luggage weight and size

Payload is a huge factor. I am surprised they are not paying more attention. Each pound of weight not carried and another pound of available payload for revenue cargo.

Ideal Economy Domestic: At least 18" Seat Width. 17" is for Size 0 models. Some people are weightlifters and have broad shoulders, it's not just the fatties. Not everyone who is physically fit is a skinny cardio nut. Make Reclines impossible on planes on domestic flights. No constant running back and forth with the cart, there should be emergency warm water but otherwise pay for drinks - but they should be "Regular" Priced. Wifi on all flights, don't mind paying $5-10 for it, but $20+ is ridiculous esp. if the flight is only a couple of hours long. Stronger trays that can take a laptop, not everybody is a consumer watching lolcats on a tablet, some people are producers who need the keyboard and the power of a non A# chip.

Legroom not an issue, but those over 6'0 should be given priority to the extra legroom seats for a token fee. Those under 6'0" have to pay whatever the airline wants to charge. And this would be just the passengers, not their companions or family - they'll have to sit alone to get the token price. I think that's reasonable.

thunderlips11 says

Ideal Economy Domestic: At least 18" Seat Width. 17" is for Size 0 models.

Virgin America's coach seats are 17.7-inch wide. It is prudent to research SeatGuru before booking a flight.

Seats should recline, but tray tables can be eliminated for domestic coach. There are no more hot meals anyway. Laptops are meant for laps. Or one can use a tablet.

I turn off wi-fi completely. Kindle time. :-)

Peter P says

Virgin America's coach seats are 17.7-inch wide

Close enough.

Peter P says

Laptops are meant for laps.

Not at all. Ever try sitting in a chair with your feet flat on the floor at work at a laptop? And that's a regular chair, not in a cattle car chair.

Laptop is just a cute name. It's really a table top or legs-crossed top.

thunderlips11 says

Legroom not an issue, but those over 6'0 should be given priority to the extra legroom seats for a token fee. Those under 6'0" have to pay whatever the airline wants to charge.

I am adverse to need-based pricing. Tall/fat people should pay the same premium for bigger seats.

And I am not a petite person either.

thunderlips11 says

Peter P says

Virgin America's coach seats are 17.7-inch wide

Close enough.

JetBlue's E-190 regional jets have 18.25-inch wide standard seats.

thunderlips11 says

Not at all. Ever try sitting in a chair with your feet flat on the floor at work at a laptop? And that's a regular chair, not in a cattle car chair.

I have not used a laptop in flight since the original iPad came out. I can't be productive unless I can walk around. So I just read.

Peter P says

JetBlue's E-190 regional jets have 18.25-inch wide standard seats.

Yep. Only two seats per row.

Peter P says

I have not used a laptop in flight since the original iPad came out. I can't be productive unless I can walk around. So I just read.

I couldn't read my Kindle on one of those new 777s. The person in front of me literally hit my lip when reclining. In fairness, I booked last minute and could only get the last row so I couldn't recline myself.

Well, I was exhausted and fell asleep anyway; thank god, it was a 9 hour flight.

I like to bang out spreadsheets on the plane, since it's a mindnumbing task, then at the hotel I can relax and enjoy.

thunderlips11 says

Yep. Only two seats per row.

It is also a narrower tube. But the Embraer E-jet is very good. I definitely prefer it over the CRJ.

Peter P says

. But the Embraer E-jet is very good.

Haven't been on one, but they look great. Embraer makes clever stuff.

thunderlips11 says

I couldn't read my Kindle on one of those new 777s. The person in front of me literally hit my lip when reclining. In fairness, I booked last minute and could only get the last row so I couldn't recline myself.

BTW, United's 777 have 18-inch wide coach seats. Definitely try Economy Plus. That extra 3 inches of legroom means a lot.

TL said: (Yes, there's the baggage check at the gate trick. As more people use it, I expect the airlines to nix it.)
At Ess Eff, before you enter the security line, United now has staffed a couple of "baggage police". They force folks with oversized carry-ons to try and put them in the carry-on sizer model. A lot of time people can repack or wear a jacket; otherwise, they're sent back to the counter to check it in (and pay the fee).
United is also experimenting with loading by Group. I was in "Group 5" last time. Those of us in this group finally figured out that we were all single aisle seat passengers (makes sense to load us last). That said, they also made us gate check (free) our carry on bags as we were near the end of the line. When I got to my seat (near the rear of the plane) there was still overhead space -- which means the prescreening measures before security are working. I'm seriously considering Southwest to avoid the carryon kabuki.

Peter P says

BTW, United's 777 have 18-inch wide coach seats. Definitely try Economy Plus. That extra 3 inches of legroom means a lot.

For me it's the ass room. Though I'm beginning to think it's the arm rests, too. One thing I noticed when flying exit row seats like I normally do is that the arm rests don't go down (which sucks because I'm usually the only one in the row leaving from S. Amr., the longest leg of my trips) , but they are somehow "Wider" - maybe because of the arm rest trays.

EBGuy says

I'm seriously considering Southwest to avoid the carryon kabuki.

Yeah, I hate the carry on process. I know I'm a lone wolf on this, but it stretches out the boarding and most importantly, exit process, esp. if you're towards the back or the plane is full of families packing daughter and mom's Spaceballs Sized Princess Hair Driers in them.

I'd rather wait in baggage check where I can stretch, smoke, get a coffee, etc. after being confined for hours.

I always pay the extra money for "Economy Plus". I get the same leg room as first-class at a much lower price.

Peter P says

In the end, seating space is determined by the market. Passengers will be even more upset if they are forced to pay more for bigger seats.

It's more than about the size of the seats. More asses adds more weight. And their luggage extra weight. Besides the issue about the seat size, space and service. The amount of personal property you can travel with is shrinking. Or becoming something only those privilege enough to be able to pay for, can afford. It's more elitist exceptionalism we tolerate in this country. When a product and service is successful. Then cheapen it, and make getting what you paid for an "Upgrade". Pretty soon it's going to get to the point where you have to show up at the airport empty handed. Fly naked to your destination, purchase new clothes in the airport terminal at your destination.

While flying standing back to belly.

FWIW Jet Blue a carrier down here I always use when I fly to New York. Is a very economical airline. Usually 30% cheaper than any other airline. And I've never had a problem with their seat size. But then of course, it's only a few hour ride. By time my legs a fatigue and stiff, we're already preparing for landing.

I wouldn't mind the leg room if the ticket price was considerably less than the other airlines, or it was a short trip. The problem when every airline does it, becomes the normal business model. So they lose the need to offer alternatives.

EBGuy says

United is also experimenting with loading by Group. I was in "Group 5" last time. Those of us in this group finally figured out that we were all single aisle seat passengers (makes sense to load us last).

This is why I sometimes also pay extra for priority boarding.

Isle seat ain't that bad in economy it definitely offers options to stretch out without having to walk around.

CaptainShuddup says

The problem when every airline does it, becomes the normal business model. So they lose the need to offer alternatives.

Those extra-legroom seats look like an alternative to me. You can set a personal standard, use SeatGuru to do research, and shop for the best acceptable flights.

sbh says

"Was it worth it for a few hours of comfort? You could buy an iphone with that, you know. Better value for money."

I wouldn't own an iphone if you begged me. Along with its attendant costs it's about the least needed thing I could imagine. Until there's an app to translate the Captain's drivel it's no more than a paperweight.

It's worth it's weight in gold.
By the way, anyone who wants an iphone should get it from Costco. $20.00 off and the tax is based on what you pay, $199 or $299, not the full value of the phone $699. Walmart is similar too. No lines at Costco - we got 2 this morning.

CaptainShuddup says

It's more elitist exceptionalism we tolerate in this country.

Why do you hate capitalism? Go back to Cuba!

This is first class travel!

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/15/travel/first-class-offerings/index.html?hpt=hp_c4

Having legroom is just the humane thing to do. Not the economical thing to do.

Captain, I thought you were a friend of the free market.

What do you expect businesses to do? There is demand for high-end products and they answered. The people want lower fare. That was granted too.

Just pay for an upgrade.

The rich serves as an inspiration. In this free country, you can get rich too.

We conservatives must go beyond condescending on poor people. We must recognize that we are poor people ourselves. The only way to escape this condition is to get richer.

CaptainShuddup says

This is first class travel!

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/15/travel/first-class-offerings/index.html?hpt=hp_c4

Having legroom is just the humane thing to do. Not the economical thing to do.

Hey, Etihad comes with a chauffer - On a plane? LOL.

"Clocking in at around $40,000 for a round-trip flight, Etihad's three-bedroom suites come with a butler, concierge, chauffeur and private chef."

I don't know, $40000 is much cheaper than a chartered flight between ME and London. It is much roomier too.

Remember, first class must compete with private jets.

Peter P says

I don't know, $40000 is much cheaper than a chartered flight between ME and London. It is much roomier too.

Remember, first class must compete with private jets.

Is it worth it for a few hours of flight time? If I became a billionaire I would still fly economy.

It's worth it when you can fly directly from your small town home to 4 small town business destinations in Europe and be back in time for the weekend with your family.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

First class without courtesans and human sacrifices is just tarted up economy.

"Smoking or non-smoking? BJ or non-BJ?"

Retro porn. I wish I could remember the name of the movie now.

Peter P says

Just pay for an upgrade.

You know being a cheap poor ass peasant, is the number one cause of Deep vein thrombosis.

I am very fearful of DVT.

I do prefer loose-leaf tea.

sbh says

Peter P says

I do prefer loose-leaf tea.

Milk in first, no doubt.

A slice of lemon instead.

sbh says

It was one or the other.

Yeah, lemon milk is gross.