patrick.net

curious2 says

A legal stipend like aid to women with dependent children provides a nice cover for how you make a living, while the illicit cash piles up along with toys bought with cash and accumulating in a barn somewhere. Also, you seem to have assumed, mistakenly, that the prostitute in 4Z (or whatever) isn't smart

If this person can pass a bunch of science and engineering exams then chances are ... there's some job out there for her. That's the difference.

Many STEM folks leave the academy or the R&D labs for other careers, because they have the combination of education and know-how, to make that happen.

A hustler from the *south side of town*, while clever, will not get to that stage of her life, where she can do the books of a company, manage their unix scripts, or sell their routers to the Fortune 1000.

In my society, many will not stay and leave for those types of careers.

Rin says

If this person can pass a bunch of science and engineering exams then chances are ... there's some job out there for her. That's the difference.

I regret, now, having answered your question, because you have not got any closer to answering mine. Please forget the hypothetical prostitute in 4Z or wherever, if you can, at least for a moment. How is Universe B, where you have your second alternate scenario (with the means testing) superior to Universe A (where you have your first alternate scenario, with payment based on measuring results or efforts)?

Rin says

In my society....

You have proposed two different societies based on two different policy environments. I have asked four times why you believe that one of your two proposals is better than the other. I won't trouble you with repeating the question again, we've both wasted more time on it than it's worth.

curious2 says

Rin says

If this person can pass a bunch of science and engineering exams then chances are ... there's some job out there for her. That's the difference.

I regret, now, having answered your question, because you have not got any closer to answering mine. Please forget the prostitute in 4Z or wherever, if you can, at least for a moment. How is Universe B, where you have your second alternate scenario (with the means testing) superior to Universe A (where you have your first alternate scenario, with payment based on measuring results or efforts?

In my means tested scenario B, ppl will be asked/required to continue to study science and engineering subjects.

In the real world, many ppl are not that motivated to learn and thus, will look for a short cut. Yes, they'll stay on the sponsorship until they get into medical school or pass their CPA exam. Afterwards, they'll disappear.

In this scenario B, the ppl who'll want to be sponsored long term, will be motivated not by money but by their interest in following their passions.

Thus, you won't see the welfare queens, drug makers, etc, wanting to be a part of this program, as there are easier ways for them to make money and be invisible to the system.

Instead, it's the creative folks, the ppl who get excited by their own work, who'll stick around, and can't find a home in this corporate America.

I think you don't understand the definition of means testing. That would explain why you don't understand that you have proposed two different policies, and the likely results of each.

curious2 says

I think you don't understand the definition of means testing. That would explain why you don't understand that you have proposed two different policies.

Actually, I don't think you've got it.

In reality, how many ppl can pass an exam on Thermodynamics and at the same time, show an income less than X, to be sponsored?

This is a rapidly shrinking percent of the population. The derelicts you describe will not be motivated to give this thing a try. In fact, I'd guarantee that the first batch of ppl, would be American postdocs, looking for a way out of their indentured servitude to the university labs.

Now, would it be so bad, giving these ppl some sanctuary, so that they don't need to be semi-permanent slaves to some principal investigators?

Realize, I didn't go through graduate school. New Renter did and he can verify how bad the situation is.

Rin says

In reality, how many ppl can pass an exam on Thermodynamics and at the same time, show an income less than X, to be sponsored?

Ted Kaczynski, for one.

Rin says

Now, would it be so bad....

This is a waste of time. There is no point having a lengthy debate when you don't understand the terms you are using and the discrete concepts they represent. It would end with, "Oh, I meant something else." I'll copy and paste a working definition for you, then I'm done.

Here you go:

"means-testing, by which poorer [participants] would receive more generous benefits and the wealthy would receive less (or none at all)."

This kid couldn't find a job because it's not STEM...it's STEAM. This is for real...educators are buying into this bullshit:

http://stemtosteam.org/

In this climate of economic uncertainty, America is once again turning to innovation as the way to ensure a prosperous future.

Yet innovation remains tightly coupled with Science, Technology, Engineering and Math – the STEM subjects. Art + Design are poised to transform our economy in the 21st century just as science and technology did in the last century.

We need to add Art + Design to the equation — to transform STEM into STEAM.

STEM + Art = STEAM

STEAM is a movement championed by Rhode Island School of Design (RISD) and widely adopted by institutions, corporations and individuals.

The objectives of the STEAM movement are to:

transform research policy to place Art + Design at the center of STEM
encourage integration of Art + Design in K–20 education
influence employers to hire artists and designers to drive innovation

curious2 says

Rin says

In reality, how many ppl can pass an exam on Thermodynamics and at the same time, show an income less than X, to be sponsored?

Ted Kaczynski, for one.

Rin says

Now, would it be so bad....

This is a waste of time. There is no point having a lengthy debate when you don't understand the terms you are using. It would end with, "Oh, I meant something else." I'll copy and paste a definition for you, then I'm done.

Here's your problem, you're looking for some validation, from some greater forces within society. You need some 'higher up' telling you what's right or wrong.

Here's something to throw a monkey wrench at that ... I'd earned $700K last year.

Does that 'validate' my contribution to society? For me, it doesn't and here's why ... I know that we live in a rentier society and that those who play the game, finance or what have you, earn the dollars from the ignorance of the populace.

Why am I doing this, if it doesn't make me happy? Here's why, in order for me to do my own research, only I can pay my own bills. I cannot work for (and take orders from) an established academician or others, whose purpose it is, to either steal my ideas or worse, suppress my ideas to validate the zeitgeist of his organization.

Rin says

Here's your problem, you're looking for some validation, from some greater forces within society. You need some 'higher up' telling you what's right or wrong.

No, I swear to you, I was only asking a simple question.

Rin says

I'd earned $700K last year.

There's your problem. It's replaced diligence with arrogance. The question was very simple. I don't even care anymore - your proposal isn't worth the time we've wasted discussing it, no matter how much money you put behind it or how emotionally committed you become to the position. Madoff made lots of money too, and Pete Peterson (whose policy ideas I do read, not because he's "higher up" than you but because he thinks through his policy ideas).

Artisans will rise.

curious2 says

Rin says

I'd earned $700K last year.

There's your problem. It's replaced diligence with arrogance. The question was very simple. I don't even care anymore - your proposal isn't worth the time we've wasted discussing it.

It's obvious you don't get it then.

Sure, let the so-called free market have its way.

In a few decades, this country will be like Nigeria, with oligarchs owning the industries, the ordinary American being broke, and the work done in Asia.

In my line of work, I'd met with these owners of capital and if you honestly believe that these are wonderful and talented ppl then I've got a bridge to sell to you.

The hope of my science and engineering sponsorship state will at least put a bit of a delay in that happening.

But no, you're more concerned about some means-test.

Rin says

you're more concerned about some means-test.

LOL that was your (second) proposal - don't try to mis-attribute it to me. I was curious about your first proposal, and why you switched to your second, but when I asked that question I got a series of non-responsive and increasingly bizarre comments.

curious2 says

Rin says

you're more concerned about some means-test.

LOL that was your (second) proposal - don't try to mis-attribute it to me.

Hey, you tried to confuse an authentic STEM examination system with some housing projects on the south side of town.

Rin says

Hey, you tried to confuse an authentic STEM examination system with some housing projects on the south side of town.

I did no such thing, but you became obsessed with the hypothetical prostitute in 4Z or wherever. Examine her all you like, it makes no difference to me.

curious2 says

Rin says

Hey, you tried to confuse an authentic STEM examination system with some housing projects on the south side of town.

I did no such thing, but you became obsessed with the hypothetical prostitute in 4Z or wherever.

What about your Meth lab analogy? Isn't that also 'south side' related?

You switched your proposal to concentrate resources on encouraging meth labs and unabombers? That's your answer? I'm sorry I asked. I prefer AF's confidence in the inevitability of cannibal anarchy without requiring a new program.

curious2 says

You switched your proposal to encourage meth labs and unabombers?

No, that's you.

In my scenario, many ppl simply leave to become accountants, actuaries, doctors, or patent agents.

Rin says

In my scenario, many ppl simply leave to become accountants, actuaries, doctors, or patent agents.

Do you understand that you have proposed two different scenarios and still not answered the original question? How does the means test encourage that result?

Here is a sample answer to show what one might look like.

If there were means testing, then people who want more money would leave the program so they can earn a higher legal income. Without means testing, they would continue to participate in the program, even while earning a higher income, and that would be bad because space aliens or something.

Do you see how in that sample answer I distinguished between the two versions of your proposal? I observed that there were two versions and I thought through consequences of each. I didn't get emotional about robber barons or Apartheid or whatnot.

curious2 says

Rin says

In my scenario, many ppl simply leave to become accountants, actuaries, doctors, or patent agents.

Do you understand that you have still not answered the question? How does the means test encourage that result?

Here is a sample answer to show what one might look like.

If there were means testing, then people who want more money would leave the program so they can earn a higher legal income. Without means testing, they would continue to participate in the program, even while earning a higher income, and that would be bad because space aliens or something.

What part of this do you not understand?

Corporate America and Academic America do not allow *freedom* to their worker bees.

The examination system gives *freedom* to these people.

If a person doesn't care about *freedom* and simply wants a paycheck, he'll take the CPA exam and become an accountant.

In fact, a lot of STEM graduates (esp from Ivy colleges, MIT, Stanford, Duke) start at Wall St at $90K+ and have left the life of the academy from day zero. Years later, a lot of these ppl find themselves burnt out and not interested in anything afterwards.

The only way to encourage the creative souls to pursue their passions, which excludes working in finance, patents, medicine, etc, is to give them a place to be, independent of the whole academic graduate school/postdoc world. Our society will not pay creative ppl anymore. They pay for academic or corporate servitude.

Rin says

What part of this do you not understand?

Your persistent refusal to answer one simple question, and my SIWOTI that caused me to ask more than once. That's two parts, but I'd settle for understanding the first.

curious2 says

Rin says

What part of this do you not understand?

Your refusal to answer a simple question, and my SIWOTI that caused me to ask more than once. That's two parts, but I'd settle for understanding the first.

Your question is incentive and my answer was *freedom*.

A worker bee for corporate America is not free.

That person will never be free. All her ideas will be owned by the parent company and thus, she's no better off than a serf.

Rin says

Your question is incentive

No, my question is the same as it always was, and you still have not answered.

But here's the thing - I'm working on the SIWOTI. I am going to take a deep breath, log out, forget about the question, and move on with my life. The answer doesn't even matter anyway, our lives will not be one day longer or shorter because of it, but we will accomplish less in the time allowed if we keep wasting time on it.

Wish me luck.

"Why have you switched to a means tested program instead of a program that pays based on results or at least effort? Your original proposal said, "Then, in order to maintain one's stipend, a new exam must be taken every two years." Now you've shifted to means testing? That seems like the opposite of your own stated plan for your own future, i.e. you would be discouraging yourself from signing up. In addition, you would be creating a disincentive to do research that might prove moderately lucrative, because participants would fear losing their stipend."

If this is your question, then you've got it all wrong. Creative ppl need to be free, not be given incentives.

Incentives are for ppl who have no inspiration in life.

Sure, there are STEM ppl who have no such inspiration. Many of them will find any job in corporate America and move on. For them, this program doesn't matter, as they'll be sales directors or program managers at some point in their careers.

But to prevent ppl from simply getting a check for having a STEM degree, periodically, that person will need to take an exam, to keep the thing going. That's fair because many folks, once they find that actuary job, will leave anyways. So why pay them?

Your ideas are based upon today's welfare state which encourages ppl not to work. STEM folks, on the other hand, love to do something. That's the difference. And the best way to harness it, is to remove the clutches of corporate America and academic America from its hold. Those institutions are degenerated and run by bean counters and liars.

what about the millions who never studied STEM but are now working in STEM?

STEM jobs may not be as shiny as many had perceived due to outsourcing but this article screams extreme exaggerations. it clearly is written by a bullshitter and may be an incompetent one as well.

"least 90 percent of my college education (and that of so many others) boiled down to pure terminology, or analysis of terminology."

this right there tells you this guy is full of crap. maybe he actually went to the University of Phoenix or some other mail order University? no freaking way the professors spend 90% of the time on terminology. they teach you a lot of concepts but those requires more than just memorizing words. programming courses, data structure, advanced data structure, networking, security, database, software engineering, operating systems, assembly language, distributed systems, algorithms, advanced algorithms, system programming, embedded systems, not mentioning required math courses. i worked my ass off in those classes, also in a public school like the one he claims to have gone. i wish it was simple as "90% terminology."

"by the time I left school, all of the software and programming languages I’d learned had been obsolete for years."

you think that after spending 4 years in a university a comp-sci grad would be a bit wiser than this. how would any university be able to keep up with the real world? a college education is meant to teach him the basics and to evaluate his level of commitment and potentials. nothing else.

relying on a school or classes to teach you the languages required for a development job, especially one for new grads, is one clear indication that you are not fit for this kind of work. maybe he can become a full time bullshit writer. this way he can unlock his full "potentials."

his linkedin says MIS, that's not Computer Science as he claimed in the article.

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/casey-ark/23/194/668

Mark D says

his linkedin says MIS, that's not Computer Science as he claimed in the article.

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/casey-ark/23/194/668

Good catch. Management (of) Information System is a CS-lite degree, at best.

justme says

Mark D says

his linkedin says MIS, that's not Computer Science as he claimed in the article.

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/casey-ark/23/194/668

Good catch. Management (of) Information System is a CS-lite degree, at best.

Also, he's listing himself as 'CEO' of some unknown web company. That's immediate shredder resume for an entry level job in corporate America.

For a newcomer, even if one's self-employed, one needs to label himself as programmer analyst, research analyst, systems engineer, etc.

curious2 says

Ted Kaczynski, for one.

Another bad example ... Kaczynski was living off the grid. That's how he avoided capture for years.

In my sponsorship society, the govt will know that he's around, as he'll be cashing checks once in a while. Those who'll be on this program are obviously not going to be running terrorist rackets, since detection would be rather easy.

For the most part, many postdocs in academia will be the first to join up. And then, it'll be the gypsy scholars/adjunct profs, who can't find full time professorships. Many of these ppl will transition out of science altogether, within a few years. Those who'll stick around will have some *inner* incentive, yes, read that one, inner incentive, not a carrot/stick, to do their own thing.

Mark D says

STEM jobs may not be as shiny as many had perceived due to outsourcing but this article screams extreme exaggerations. it clearly is written by a bullshitter and may be an incompetent one as well.

Mark D says

what about the millions who never studied STEM but are now working in STEM?

What was that again?

If you are talking about C level execs and paper pushers working at STEM companies they don't count unless by some act of God they actually spend a significant portion of their days at the bench. They don't. I've worked with a few of these people in my day and I can tell you their eyes glaze over at the first hint of actual technology.... That is until their brains reset into buzzword capture mode.

New Renter says

If you are talking about C level execs and paper pushers working at STEM companies they don't count unless by some act of God they actually spend a significant portion of their days at the bench.

These are MBA-ologists. And actually, many have come from management consulting backgrounds so the art of bullshit-ing is their raison d'être.

For me, it took years to develop those skills.

New Renter says

If you are talking about C level execs and paper pushers working at STEM companies they don't count unless by some act of God they actually spend a significant portion of their days at the bench. They don't. I've worked with a few of these people in my day and I can tell you their eyes glaze over at the first hint of actual technology.... That is until their brains reset into buzzword capture mode.

That was disingenuous reply, if you want to say that they are rare, then do so. But to marginalize people who are self starters, learners and self studied, as interlopers is over selling your self and our crappy education system.

CaptainShuddup says

New Renter says

If you are talking about C level execs and paper pushers working at STEM companies they don't count unless by some act of God they actually spend a significant portion of their days at the bench. They don't. I've worked with a few of these people in my day and I can tell you their eyes glaze over at the first hint of actual technology.... That is until their brains reset into buzzword capture mode.

That was disingenuous reply, if you want to say that they are rare, then do so. But to marginalize people who are self starters, learners and self studied, as interlopers is over selling your self and our crappy education system.

Disingenuous? Hardly. Most companies are staffed with people who never enter the lab yet work at a STEM company. I was merely pointing out these people do not count as having STEM careers. Pushing paper does not make you a scientist, technician, engineer or mathematician. Their careers are STEM dependent, but not STEM.

Now if you want to weigh into the discussion with your own experience as a carpet layer who through sheer old fashioned gumption and power of will began a successful career as a highly sought after programmer (or meth cook) please do.

New Renter says

Pushing paper does not make you a scientist

Hey, us BS artists don't push paper, we push the dream ...

"I can you get that!"

"It's all about our client's success"

"What we offer is what *the Street* had neglected"

New Renter says

Disingenuous? Hardly. Most companies are staffed with people who never enter the lab yet work at a STEM company. I was merely pointing out these people do not count as having STEM careers. Pushing paper does not make you a scientist, technician, engineer or mathematician. Their careers are STEM dependent, but not STEM.

Now if you want to weigh into the discussion with your own experience as a carpet layer who through sheer old fashioned gumption and power of will began a successful career as a highly sought after programmer (or meth cook) please do.

My brother is one of the leading Resin, gel coat and Putty "Composites" chemist in the country.

There's probably not a Cultured marble vanity, a glossy Yacht's finish, marine coating sold in the US, that my Brother probably didn't create the formula for.

He landed that job in 1986, straight out of Army after serving 4 years.
He started out as Lab help, among other warehouse duties for the Gelcoat manufacturer and worked his way up. That company has been bought about 5 different times. Now the company he works for is one of the only companies that manufactures what he makes. He's it, there's not many in the Country that does what he does, or knows what he knows about gel coats, putties and resins.
He learned everything on the job. He's flown all over the world to troubleshoot, and QA coatings manufactured by several manufacturer, that licenses his formulas.

Formulas he doesn't own, but he did create over the course of 30 years as his company changes at least 5 hands.

I watched Mission Blue the other night.

Do you really think that any one with a passion for collecting seaweed, couldn't accomplished the same thing that Sylvia Earle accomplished as a Scientist?
We only know about her today, because the Women's lib movement was big in the 60's. She hitched a ride on some ground breaking sea expeditions and was there early on in the evolution of submersibles. She could have actually been a Shipyard worker from the Bronx and been just as useful.
"oooh look a sponge!"

By her standards anyone who has ever walked the beach and took the time to appreciate the things that wash up on the surf, is a world renown scientist.

I mean I'm not trying to take anything from her or Science. But Schientists, that thinks it takes some bestowed credentials from a University to understand or appreciate Nature, is just pure horse shit.

CaptainShuddup says

I mean I'm not trying to take anything from her or Science. But Schientists, that thinks it takes some bestowed credentials from a University to understand or appreciate Nature, is just pure horse shit.

The knowledge sets of most university courses are in the public domain.

Thus, the so-called credential is just a way of certifying and grading how the person did with those subject areas.

In my hypothetical scenario of a sponsorship program, ppl who can take those exams, will be able to get a stipend to do their own thing. Since you yourself said that you were a self-studier, well, the principle would also apply to you.

Rin says

New Renter says

Pushing paper does not make you a scientist

Hey, us BS artists don't push paper, we push the dream ...

"I can you get that!"

"It's all about our client's success"

"What we offer is what *the Street* had neglected"

Rin says

Thus, the so-called credential is just a way of certifying and grading how the person did with those subject areas.

The Rubric is nothing more than jargon and horseshit to justify the high tuition costs and the lack of real world knowledge and experience.

*No Work was received by the instructor

*Student work demonstrates no understanding or progress towards achievement of this outcome.

*Student demonstrates little ability to use problem solving to increase academic and professional proficiency. Student work does not provide examples to explain statements.

*Student begins to demonstrate problem solving skills to increase academic and professional proficiency. Student work provides some examples that do not necessarily explain statements.

*Student work demonstrates how the use of problem solving skills increases academic and professional proficiency. Student work provides some examples to explain statements.

*Student work demonstrates how the use of problem solving skills increases academic and professional proficiency. Student work provides career-oriented examples to explain statements.

*Student work fully demonstrates how the use of problem solving skills increases academic and professional proficiency. Student work provides practical career-oriented examples to explain statements.

Rin says

In my hypothetical scenario of a sponsorship program, ppl who can take those exams, will be able to get a stipend to do their own thing. Since you yourself said that you were a self-studier, well, the principle would also apply to you.

We've always been on the same page in that regard.

It' obvious you don't understand the meaning of the word "terminology".

Mark D says

this right there tells you this guy is full of crap. maybe he actually went to the University of Phoenix or some other mail order University? no freaking way the professors spend 90% of the time on terminology. they teach you a lot of concepts but those requires more than just memorizing words. programming courses, data structure, advanced data structure, networking, security, database, software engineering, operating systems, assembly language, distributed systems, algorithms, advanced algorithms, system programming, embedded systems, not mentioning required math courses. i worked my ass off in those classes, also in a public school like the one he claims to have gone. i wish it was simple as "90% terminology."