patrick.net

First off where's the link to the article? Second how can one be sure they will obtain such a wage after graduating from college? Third why are they using one lady as an example of how well college paid off for her 40 years ago?

Concerning high doctor salaries .... since when was that a *news* story?

As far back as I can remember, any person, who stood a chance of getting an A in biology or chemistry during high school, was encouraged to become a premed in college.

And to a lesser extent, those profile perfect students, a.k.a 4.0, perfect SATs, APs, etc, were encouraged to apply to 6-7 year BA/MD programs so that their seat at the medical school was guaranteed. Many would choose this option over even undergrad at Johns Hopkins or Ivy colleges.

With the above stated, it's only the mindless ppl, who think that money is always around the corner, who encourage the dumb kids to study liberal arts at an Oberlin or Skidmore type of college, since being *well rounded* is the best course in life. Normally, these clowns later, have to either go to law school or grad school and then, teach at high schools, since they have no graduation parachute.

My personal post-MBA salary was an 87% increase from pre-MBA salary.

My salary has increased 47% in the 3.5 years since completing the degree.

I would say it was a good investment.

control point says

My salary has increased 47% in the 3.5 years since completing the degree.

That's because you had a job/career track, before attending the program. The MBA program then pushed your track, out of the *high* individual contributor track, and onto some leadership role.

Those who don't have that but then, go for an MBA, usually have nothing.

Rin says

That's because you had a job/career track, before attending the program. The
MBA program then pushed your track, out of the *high* individual contributor
track, and onto some leadership role.

Those who don't have that but then, go for an MBA, usually have nothing.

Oh, there is a lot of selection bias in MBA / salary correlation. Anyone can get an MBA - not anyone can get an MBA from where I got mine from.

If you get an MBA from an unranked program from middle of the road uni or worse - it probably isn't going to give you the results I saw.

If you get an MBA from a top 10 program - your results are going to more closely correlate to my experience.

Would I have been a good performer without the degree - most likely - though I will say have that degree opened doors that were not previously open for me, as you said.

You go from applying for jobs to jobs applying for you, at least in my experience.

control point says

If you get an MBA from a top 10 program - your results are going to more closely correlate to my experience.

Ok, let me help illustrate with an example.

Young BS graduate takes a job as a junior process engineer at Proctor & Gamble. He gains some experience in facility equipment, management, and product development. For the most part, those first 4 years are his entry level salary, annually adjusted for COL.

He leaves P&G for an MBA at Northwestern/Kellogg. As he's approaching graduation, he's recruited by Unilever as a director/senior analyst on a leadership track. His immediate salary is already 30% higher than his last year at P&G. Four years later, he's assistant VP of a product launch dept.

Everything is relative. So we must compare this option, to bypassing university altogether, and immediately entering the work force.

Doing some rough math in my head, forgoing the debt take on, and beginning to earn a wage five years before the university folk,,,

35k per year * 5 =175k in a head start of wages

Not having to repay 160k of student loan debt with interest, should mean a head start on savings and compounded interest.

One would need to make a hell of a lot more because of that piece of paper, to make it worthwile financially,,,,,

errc says

35k per year * 5 =175k in a head start of wages

Not having to repay 160k of student loan debt with interest, should mean a
head start on savings and compounded interest.

Well according to this:

http://www.cesdp.nmhu.edu/youth-programs/docs/earnings.pdf

Average salary for high school graduate is $23.3k, while college graduate is $45.6k.

Present value of 5 years of foregone salary of $23.3k plus $40k per year of college cost at 3% inflation is $290k. That is what you are in the hole by going to college.

The number of years, again at 3%, to pay this back with a $22.3k higher salary is about 17.

So basically, the average someone is better off from 18-40 foregoing college, and better off after that going to college and graduating.

Given that careers last to anywhere from age 60-70 typically - it would seem college is a good deal.

If you kick the bucket before 40 you would have been better off going straight to work.

control point says

Average salary for high school graduate is $23.3k, while college graduate is $45.6k.

Present value of 5 years of foregone salary of $23.3k plus $40k per year of college cost at 3% inflation is $290k. That is what you are in the hole by going to college.

The number of years, again at 3%, to pay this back with a $22.3k higher salary is about 17.

I would say that the numbers are skewed. A high school graduate won't be making 23.3k for 5 years for one. By the time 5 years occur the H.S. graduate could or would be making 40k. If I forgone college and worked for my fahter's company I'd probably make $18-20 an hr which is more than 40k after 5 years. Plus I wouldn't have that college debt over my head either.

kids today need to work to get through college and leave the loans alone.

i got through UCLA by driving the campus bus (till i wrecked so many they put me in the office typing),

modeled (which i hated but needed the cash),

worked as a summer campus camp counselor (great job up at Lake Arrowhead),

worked in a local gym making shakes (also got free workouts).

and i still had time to study and socialize on and off campus. my jobs were a great career door opener and i met so many affluent people such as the campus movers and shakers, university alumi vacationing at arrowhead and many well to do people in the gym and many hollywood types from modeling. these students today don't want to work fro GO, so why hire them NO WAYS!!

casandra says

kids today need to work to get through college and leave the loans alone.

i got through UCLA by driving the campus bus (till i wrecked so many they put me in the office typing),

modeled (which i hated but needed the cash),

worked as a summer campus camp counselor (great job up at Lake Arrowhead),

worked in a local gym making shakes (also got free workouts).

and i still had time to study and socialize on and off campus. my jobs were a great career door opener and i met so many affluent people such as the campus movers and shakers, university alumi vacationing at arrowhead and many well to do people in the gym and many hollywood types from modeling. these students today don't want to work fro GO, so why hire them NO WAYS!!

Those days are gone. Now either the parents pay for it, or you get a loan If they can't pay it all. Working can help, but it can only account for a small percent of the total cost.

yah, your right about the cost of college being out of range for kids to afford. buy i did have the choice for my parents to pay for it, or to take out loans. I chose to work, and that was enough to pay off UCLA in full during school.

but when my mom said years later how she paid for her kids college, i had to set the record straight. i am proud i did it on my own and no regrets. actually i met some of my best friends to this day from college work over college life.

In my case I have a job that while highly technical does not require a university education, just lots of trade experience (electrician work, control systems, welding, rigging, hydraulics, machining). I'm the only person in my department with a bachelor's degree, but the wage range in the department runs from $130,000-$200,000.
My wife has two masters degrees, but makes much much less, and her student loans were a lot.
A guy I work with is 8 years younger, and because he didn't waste time with college he's now at or beyond me in finances.
So that's an 8 year gap between going to college (and paying it back) and not attending.
In my work anyway.

ohomen171 says

Over 40 years ago tuition at Tulane was $5,000 per year. I have certainly made a large return on that even in my current status of living on Social Security. The poor students now pay too much money in tuition.

As another example, even as late as 1990 or so, I believe UC professional school (med, law, MBA) was around $1500/semester, or 3K for the year. Now it's over $45k/year. I guarantee you incomes haven't gone up 15X in that time. UC undergrads are significantly more expensive too, although the price hasn't gone up nearly as quickly because parents (i.e. voters) often tend to pay for that, and because the professional schools have been subsidizing the rest of the university.

Doctors in the 80s and earlier had it good. Lots of free cash flow, cheap education, massive bull market, which is why so many were able to invest it well. Of course, many also invested it poorly, but that's another story. Doctors these days don't have it nearly as good.

Quigley says

My wife has two masters degrees, but makes much much less, and her student loans were a lot.

Even PhDs don't necessarily lead to riches, although they can be cheaper if they are funded. Postdocs in the sciences don't make big bucks usually, unless they hit it big in the start-up world or something like that.

control point says

Average salary for high school graduate is $23.3k, while college graduate is
$45.6k

Depends on who you are and what you get into. Example, there is a fabrication shop down here that is LOOKING/is constantly hiring people. Someone coming in off the street, with no experience is started at $12/hr. They work 50 hour weeks. If they are a good worker, show up on time, don't complain, they are taught fabrication and introduced to welding. If they show a talent for welding (and believe me, it's a talent) then they go on that track, if they aren't real good at welding they end up as fabricators. Within 5 years, a fabricator is making $25 - $35 an hour (50 hour or more weeks). A welder (depending on how good they are) is making $40 - $60 an hour, again at a 50 or more hour week. Granted it's not for everyone but neither is pushing papers and dealing with employees like management.

ohomen171 says

Over 40 years ago tuition at Tulane was $5,000 per year.

And Cadillac sedan was what, $6-7K? Now equivalent new Cadillac would cost about $50-60K. Is tuition really that much more expensive than 40 years ago, or it's just inflation?

Straw Man says

Is tuition really that much more expensive than 40 years ago, or it's just inflation?

It's been noted many times that college tuition has been increasing faster than inflation, at least in the last 20-25 years, if not for longer. Here's some data since 1985:

http://inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_articles/education_inflation.asp

For reference, CPI is up 376% since 1974, so $5K then would be about $24K now per CPI.

I just remembered an anecdote while finishing up at work.

Friend of mine went straight to work right after graduating HS. He was in the Gifted And Talented program with us, so he had to have genius level IQ. He laid block FT, long hot days starting by 5am. Scrimped and saved pretty good. Bought a modest fixer upper with cash and made it to his liking. Bought a car with cash. When the economy tanked in 07, I remember him taking voluntary layoff, which bought him over a year of maxed out unemployment benefits. He hasn't had to go back to work since. He went to school to expand his trades into some HVAC, and does a small side job here and there. But he pretty much retired at 26

corntrollio says

Postdocs in the sciences don't make big bucks usually

Postdocs are in the worst position because for one, all of their experience is in the academy. Thus, they have no parachute for leaving, unless of course, one of their buddies hires 'em in a startup company.
Still, even those companies tend to want smart undergrads/masters candidates over ppl who'd been in school for too long.

Also, one's age matter. This guy below ...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/benefits-running-options-100001376.html

Ivy grad plus Chicago MBA can't find full time work, since he got laid off in his mid-50s.

errc says

He hasn't had to go back to work since. He went to school to expand his trades into some HVAC, and does a small side job here and there. But he pretty much retired at 26

That's definitely the way to do it.

corntrollio says

For reference, CPI is up 376% since 1974, so $5K then would be about $24K now per CPI.

That would mean that $6K Cadillac should be around $30K now but we all know it's at least twice that amount.

ohomen171 says

It says that you should look at the the total tuition you must invest and the earnings that you will obtain from it.

Here's an other way (the normal way I think) to look at tuition costs:
How much does it cost to provide a set of class rooms and a set of "good enough" professors, divided by the number of students + a modest profit?

In other words, the question is: why is it that universities think they have the right to pocket the benefit of the education, before these benefits even materialize? Independently of their costs.

Or more important question: why isn't free market providing enough competition to bring the cost down? Why don't we see a large number of new universities providing commodity education at low prices? (or prices in line with inflation).

Heraclitusstudent says

Or more important question: why isn't free market providing enough competition to bring the cost down? Why don't we see a large number of new universities providing commodity education at low prices? (or prices in line with inflation).

This part, I believe, is cultural. In ppl's mind, brick & mortar equal the real deal but then, online = Univ of Phoenix, the greatest diploma mill of all time.

And then, certain elite schools, like London University, have been offering low cost distance learning to their worldwide Empire, since the mid-1800s. Officers, administrators, merchants from Gibraltar to Malaysia were taking exams at the British consulate for ages. Here's the problem ... there's no grade inflation nor hand holding over there. Ppl do get F's and thus, on-campus students have better support from their weekly meetings with tutors, and typically tend to perform better in the finals. In Britain, final exams are from 75% to 100% of one's GPA.

Without the fluff factor of a U Phoenix, London is kinda a private clubhouse.

I don't believe that the US free market, is willing to create a draconian system like that, for the sake of maintaining prestige. They'd rather water down the material, to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Straw Man says

That would mean that $6K Cadillac should be around $30K now but we all know it's at least twice that amount.

I'm calling bullshit, once again. People who know better know it's not at least twice that amount. Your username at Patnet turns out to be quite accurate.

Here is the base price of a 1974 Cadillac -- every single model:

http://automotivemileposts.com/cadillac/prod1974cadi.html
http://automotivemileposts.com/eldorado/prod1974eldo.html

6C C47/G Calais Coupe $6,153/$7,371*
Weight: 4900 Built: 4,449
6C C49/N Calais Sedan $6,327/$7,545*
Weight: 4979 Built: 2,324
6D D47/J Coupe deVille $6,560/$7,867*
Weight: 4924 Built: 112,201
6D D49/B Sedan deVille $6,793/$8,100*
Weight: 5032 Built: 60.419
6B B69/P Fleetwood Brougham $8,083/$9,537*
Weight: 5143 Built: 18,250
6F F23/R Fleetwood Seventy-Five Sedan $12,344/$13,120*
Weight: 5719 Built: 895

6L L47/H Fleetwood Eldorado Coupe $7,656/$9,110*
Weight: 4960 Built: 32,812
6L L67/E Fleetwood Eldorado Convertible $7,873/$9437*
Weight: 5019 Built: 7,600

Note that prices had a mid-year increase for 1974 models because inflation was so high. That's why you see the split pricing. By the way, that Fleetwood 75 is a limo, last I remember, hence the massive price.

Here is the price of 2014 Cadillacs:

http://autos.aol.com/cadillac/

Escalade MSRP: $63,745
Escalade ESV MSRP: $66,345
ATS MSRP: $33,065
CTS MSRP: $39,495
ELR MSRP: $75,000
SRX MSRP: $37,605
XTS MSRP: $44,600

And those 2014 models are a hell of a lot better than those 1974 models, although I wish the XTS was based on Sigma or a successor, rather than Epsilon II.

USA today had a ROI for law schools showing the debt to income ratios. They should do the same for 4 year colleges. It might show that in the past five years more than 1/2 the schools are a bad invenstment

the reason college is unaffordable is because the US govt wanted to make college affordable. think 1984, everything they say they will do will have the opposite affect. think also the war on poverty.

now the poor slobs will have to deal with the affordable care act. any guesses as to what will happen to the price of health care in this country.

I WIN, Many who don't know will lose. until you learn to predict why politicians say what they say and not what they are saying it is hard to get ahead in this country. i was told as a child, don't listen to what the media says, but think WHY they want you to believe what they say, then you can get rich !!

what do you do when you want to fool an entire county to believe what you want them to believe?

Hire an actor; remember Ronald Reagan.

You can criticize any politician or president in this county.

Unless you are affective !!!

Oh, i didn't have to go to public school to learn a thorough brain washing, went to schools where we were taught this stuff; DAILY !!! Now THATS and education !!!

but they never taught me how to spell, hehe!

Straw Man says

corntrollio says

For reference, CPI is up 376% since 1974, so $5K then would be about $24K now per CPI.

That would mean that $6K Cadillac should be around $30K now but we all know it's at least twice that amount.

If you were making a simple single carb caddy with no expensive fuel injection, stone age 3 speed no lock up converter slushbox, no computer controlled suspension, no air bags, no cat, no abs, no high end stereo, without dozens of computers that have hundreds of thousands of lines of expensive code, without dozens of sensors, without onstar, etc. etc. etc then it would be 24k.

casandra says

Now THATS and education !!!

So I see.

corntrollio says

Your username at Patnet turns out to be quite accurate.

And why is that? Care to provide a link to a single post which confirms what you're implying?

corntrollio says

I'm calling bullshit, once again. People who know better know it's not at least twice that amount.

Here is the base price of a 1974 Cadillac -- every single model:

http://automotivemileposts.com/cadillac/prod1974cadi.html

http://automotivemileposts.com/eldorado/prod1974eldo.html

6C C47/G Calais Coupe $6,153/$7,371*

Weight: 4900 Built: 4,449

6C C49/N Calais Sedan $6,327/$7,545*

Weight: 4979 Built: 2,324

Yea, so it wasn't exactly $6K but six-and-change or even (gasp!) $7K. Boo-hoo. Thank God we have google-bots to do a search and confirm that the estimate was, in fact, in the ballpark. Now go and google exact tuition in Tulane: I bet it probably wasn't exact $5,000.00 either.

corntrollio says

Here is the price of 2014 Cadillacs:

http://autos.aol.com/cadillac/

Escalade MSRP: $63,745

Escalade ESV MSRP: $66,345

Thanks for confirming my point. The only equivalent of full-size '74 Caddy on the list of modern Cadillacs is obviously Escalade and I was right again: it is twice more expensive than stated $30K.

corntrollio says

And those 2014 models are a hell of a lot better than those 1974 models,

We are not talking about "better" we are talking about equivalent. Burger might be better than steak for some toothless fuck (and CPI allows substituting one for the other, btw), but the only equivalent of steak is steak.

Straw Man says

We are not talking about "better" we are talking about equivalen

A 74 caddy and a 2014 escalade are in no way equivalent.

Go to a technical college and learn a SKILL.

or

Go through an apprenticeship program and learn a TRADE.

You'll earn a solid living with either.

However, the 4 year degree is just worthless IMO. The only thing it does is check a box.

The person who posted above about the 26 year old who works the least, has the right mindset. In America, we have this "work, to retire" without enjoying life. What a joke.

Straw Man says

Thanks for confirming my point. The only equivalent of full-size '74 Caddy on the list of modern Cadillacs is obviously Escalade and I was right again: it is twice more expensive than stated $30K.

Didn't confirm anything. The Calais was the cheapest Cadillac in 1974, and now you're trying to compare it to the most expensive Cadillac. That's equivalence?

The equivalent of the $6K Calais is the ATS these days, which is very close to half the price you're saying. Even if you're to argue that the CTS is the equivalent of the $6K Calais, you're still at 2/3 the price you're saying.

As I said, nice straw man, Straw Man.

bob2356 says

If you were making a simple single carb caddy with no expensive fuel injection, stone age 3 speed no lock up converter slushbox, no computer controlled suspension, no air bags, no cat, no abs, no high end stereo, without dozens of computers that have hundreds of thousands of lines of expensive code, without dozens of sensors, without onstar, etc. etc. etc then it would be 24k.

Yes, because that would be Cadillac, Standard of the World...