patrick.net

SoftShell says

You really need to educate yourself before commenting on shit you don't
know....
The Left in this country officially made Ukraine our business way
back when....
Oh well, just another US commitment ignored by our
leaders...
Time for China to take over those japanese islands they covet so
much...

Typical right wing blood lust. I do not view the world through my left wing/right wing construct.

So now you are a giant Clinton supporter? First of all , as your link points out-that is not a formal treaty. Second -how many American ,Russian, Ukrainian lives are you willing to sacrifice for your blood lust??

Typical chest thumping American telling the world about right and wrong while we arrest more people thna any nation on earth. Maybe sing freedom songs to all our prisoners??

There is no US commitment to Russia. To me it looks like, just a chance for some people to take shots at Obama. Don't think US cares about Ukraine, hell I had to google it just to see where it is.

The US commitment is to Ukraine, not Russia.

FortWayne says

There is no US commitment to Russia. To me it looks like, just a chance for some people to take shots at Obama. Don't think US cares about Ukraine, hell I had to google it just to see where it is.

Neither do I.
I am just pointing out what party signed the treaty with Ukraine promising to protect them if they gave up their nukes.
What's wrong with that?

lostand confused says

SoftShell says

You really need to educate yourself before commenting on shit you don't

know....
The Left in this country officially made Ukraine our business way

back when....
Oh well, just another US commitment ignored by our

leaders...
Time for China to take over those japanese islands they covet so

much...

Typical right wing blood lust. I do not view the world through my left wing/right wing construct.

If i was into blood lust i'd be following the "asshole for auction" thread, not this one...
lostand confused says

So now you are a giant Clinton supporter? First of all , as your link points out-that is not a formal treaty. Second -how many American ,Russian, Ukrainian lives are you willing to sacrifice for your blood lust??

Did you even read your own link?
McCain offers Ukraine long term military assistance, not starting a war with Russia....
Now if Russia moves against Ukraine, that's a whole different issue...

lostand confused says

SoftShell says

Link??

lostand confused says

but rightwingers are actually proposing some sort of war with Russia- WTF???

Here is McCain -favorite war monger .

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/15/mccain-calls-u-s-military-support-for-ukraine-right-and-decent/comment-page-2/

SoftShell says

Neither do I.
I am just pointing out what party signed the treaty with
Ukraine promising to protect them if they gave up their nukes.
What's wrong
with that?

if you read your own link, you would realize that is not a treaty they signed.

SoftShell says

If i was into blood lust i'd be following the "asshole for auction" thread, not this one...
lostand confused says

So now you are a giant Clinton supporter? First of all , as your link points out-that is not a formal treaty. Second -how many American ,Russian, Ukrainian lives are you willing to sacrifice for your blood lust??

Bloodlust is for killing people not having a good time. But hey keep going-lets kill more Americans, more Russians and have more wounded and scarred for life.

Well...history teaches us that pacification of tyrants while they take over independent nations = 50,000,000 to 80,000,00 dead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

WWII started in similar fashion to putin/crimia while Neville et al quietly looked on.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/germany-annexes-austria

Or don't you pay attention to history?

Oh...I see...you are one of those people that believe the world is ruled by giant gentle kings....

Kerry said. "You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext."

It's time for you to grow up. The world is filled with human animals. All kinds.
Sometimes you just have to deal with the cards that are dealt.

lostand confused says

SoftShell says

If i was into blood lust i'd be following the "asshole for auction" thread, not this one...

lostand confused says

So now you are a giant Clinton supporter? First of all , as your link points out-that is not a formal treaty. Second -how many American ,Russian, Ukrainian lives are you willing to sacrifice for your blood lust??

Bloodlust is for killing people not having agood time. But hey keep going-lets kill more Americans, more Russinas and have more wounded and scarred for life.

Just remember King Obama: The cold war with Russia is over. What are you thinking, of Horses and Bayonets.........

Social Engineering is the way to cure all ills...........

SoftShell says

Well...history teaches us that pacification of tyrants while they take over
independent nations = 50,000,000 to 80,000,00 dead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

WWII started in similar fashion to putin/crimia while Neville et al quietly
looked on.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/germany-annexes-austria

Or don't you pay attention to history?

Oh...I see...you are one of those people that believe the world is ruled by
giant gentle kings....

We are not the world police. We throw more people in jail than any nation on earth. We spy on all Americans. if you want to stop pacifying tyrants show the same anger against our govt. SoftShell says

It's time for you to grow up. The world is filled with human animals. All
kinds.
Sometimes you just have to deal with the cards that are dealt.

it is time for you to grow up and live in the real world. So what are you suggesting -war with Russia??

no.
But make them pay a real price that will have them thinking twice before continuing....start with their economy and the ruble. Make the russian people feel it hard in their pocketbooks. Let them overthrow the instigators.

Standing idly by and doing nothing is repeating history.

50,000,000 to 80,000,000 people dead in WWII....how does that sit with you?

lostand confused says

it is time for you to grow up and live in the real world. So what are you suggesting -war with Russia??

SoftShell says

Standing idly by and doing nothing is repeating history.

50,000,000 to 80,000,000 people dead in WWII....how does that sit with
you?

Hogwash. Everything is about the current situation. Russia invaded a couple of other countries during the height of the cold war and nobody did "anything". The whole cold war and treaty system was about preventing mutuallly assured destruction.

Crimea and Russia have a history going back centuries. They have a surplus and they know a hard time-their people are a lot more resilient than our 300 pound tub of lard welfare hordes. We are broke, sinking in trillions of dollars of debt.

Grow up and stop living in Sarah Palin platitudes. In life or when you get in a fight-gauge your strenght and that of the enemy. if there is a good chance of you being wiped out-then think very deeply before joining.

If Russia hits back and a few countries go off the dollar standard-you think we can take that or our welfare hordes??

Oh and percentage wise, we throw more people in jail than Russia. That is not a position you want to be when claiming the moral high ground. America cannot talk about freedom to any country in the world-because we throw way more people in jail than any of them. Charity begins at home.

Maybe we should gauge our spelling skills first....

lostand confused says

In life or when you get in a fight-gauge your strenght and that of the enemy.

Is that that gated community in Palm Beach??
lostand confused says

Grow up and stop living in Sarah Palin platitudes.

Our welfare hoardes cannot take that. They will be forced to work.
I think you just solved our insolvent social net...Good Job!

lostand confused says

If Russia hits back and a few countries go off the dollar standard-you think we can take that or our welfare hordes??

Agreed.
In Russia, they don't bother with jails....they just 'go missing'...

lostand confused says

Oh and percentage wise, we throw more people in jail than Russia.

You are lost and confused...
Is it not better to be thrown in jail than to just 'turn up missing'??

lostand confused says

America cannot talk about freedom to any country in the world-because we throw way more people in jail than any of them.

Ditto.

The history of Austria cover the history of Austria and its predecessor states, from the farming communities of the early Stone Age to the present sovereign state. The name Ostarrîchi (Austria) has been in use since 996 CE when it was a margravate of the Duchy of Bavaria and from 1156 an independent duchy (later archduchy) of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (Heiliges Römisches Reich 962–1806).

Following the First Republic (1918–1933) Austrofascism tried to keep Austria independent from the German Reich, but in 1938 it was annexed by Nazi Germany with the support of the majority of the Austrian people.[1][2] After the Second World War Austria again became an independent republic as the Second Republic in 1955 and joined the European Union in 1995.

lostand confused says

Crimea and Russia have a history going back centuries.

SoftShell says

Standing idly by and doing nothing is repeating history.

50,000,000 to 80,000,000 people dead in WWII....how does that sit with you?

So far I think no one died. A war with Russia would have been millions, hell we'd probably be dead too. It's a scary thing that both countries have enough nukes to blow up the world.

lostand confused says

So what are you suggesting

We could start out by not allowing any more Russians to emigrate to the US, and throwing out any Russians that are in Alaska, since that might be next target of Putin.

FortWayne says

So far I think no one died

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/18/ukraine-officer-shot_n_4986451.html
Ukraine Officer Shot Dead In Simferopol, Crimea

So if the Ukrainians had fought back, you would be OK with us invading Russia?

Some of you need to study Russian history. It's not a matter of if Russian will do this again, but when.

lostand confused says

Crimea and Russia have a history going back centuries.

Yeah, like when the Soviet exiled the Crimean Tartars and moved Russians into the peninsula after WW2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Crimea
In the 18th century Crimea became part of the Russian Empire.

On 18 May 1944, the entire population of the Crimean Tatars were forcibly deported in the "Sürgün" (Crimean Tatar for exile) to Central Asia by Joseph Stalin's Soviet government as a form of collective punishment on the grounds that they had collaborated with the Nazi occupation forces.[3]:483 An estimated 46% of the deportees died[citation needed] from hunger and disease. On 26 June of the same year Armenian, Bulgarian and Greek population was also deported to Central Asia. By the end of summer 1944, the ethnic cleansing of Crimea was complete. In 1967, the Crimean Tatars were rehabilitated, but they were banned from legally returning to their homeland until the last days of the Soviet Union.

Doesn't sound like Russia has a long history in the Crimea.

Neither Ukraine nor Georgia are part of NATO. The agreement Clinton signed about the nukes is not equivalent to adding Ukraine to NATO. The baltic states and Poland for example are part of NATO. If Ukraine and Georgia were they would be protected from such aggression because any military operation on their territory would trigger automatic military response from all 28 member countries.

Now Ukraine and Belarus for example are specifically not in NATO because they are considered more or less part of the Russian sphere of influence. They have large Russian minorities because they have been part of the Russian Empire for centuries. Their languages are closely related.

You have to remember that when the Soviet Union broke apart and all these countries gained independence a lot of Russians found themselves as minorities in new countries (not unlike Germans after WWI). At that point I was honestly surprised that there was no conflict and no borders redrawn. Those administrative borders of soviet republics were not meant to be borders between nations. For more than 20 years everything was fine as long as Ukraine and Belarus had Russian friendly governments. Recent events have caused Putin to think he is loosing influence and that pissed him off. He can not afford to look weak in front of conservative Russians. But I'm convinced it is a mistake to destroy the close relationship Russia had with Ukraine and redraw the borders now. If Putin goes through with that then he might gain Crimea and some parts of eastern Ukraine with russian majority population. But he surely is going to drive the western 2/3 of the country into the arms of NATO and EU and lose them as friends for a very long time.

My point is for Neocons to come along now without knowledge of history and think that the West has to show military strength is utter nonsense. I would agree if we were talking about Estonia, but Ukraine is a different ball game altogether.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars

Crimean Tatars (Crimean Tatar: Qırımtatarlar, Ukrainian: Кримськi татари, Russian: Крымские татары), Native Crimeans or simply Crimeans (Crimean Tatar: Qırım, Qırımlı) are a Turkic ethnic group, and formerly during the Crimean Khanate a Turko-Mongol ethnic group, native to the Crimea (a peninsula on the northern part of the Black Sea) in modern-day Ukraine. They are a subgroup of the Tatars. Crimean Tatars speak any combination of Crimean Tatar, Russian, Ukrainian or Turkish, depending on locale. For example, in Crimea, they use Russian in public and/or with non-Tatars, while Turkey's population of Crimean Tatar ancestry primarily uses Turkish.

About 150,000 remain in exile in Central Asia, mainly in Uzbekistan.

libero says

Now Ukraine and Belarus for example are specifically not in NATO because they are considered more or less part of the Russian sphere of influence. They have large Russian minorities because they have been part of the Russian Empire for centuries. Their languages are closely related.

The Ukrainians want to be part of NATO. The only reason why they don't is because of Russian objections (which I would expect to be ignored going forward). Why do you think the Ukraine has military exercise with NATO? I would expect to see Ukraine in NATO at some point. Besides that, if Russia did try invading the rest of Ukraine, I would expect other countries, some of the NATO countries to help Ukraine, so we would get sucked into ti eventually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations
Relations between Ukraine and North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1995. Ukraine is as of January 2008 a candidate to join the NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP).[1][2] On December 3, 2008 NATO decided it will work out an Annual National Programme of providing assistance to Ukraine to implement reforms required to accede the alliance without referring to MAP.

Yanukovich fled Ukraine amid the Euromaidan uprising in February 2014. As a result of this revolution, an interim government came to power in Kiev with more favorable views on Ukraine–NATO relations. NATO officials vowed support for Ukraine and worked to downplay tensions between the bloc and Russia, which refused to recognize the impeachment of Yanukovich and formation of a new government in Kiev.[56] Anders Fogh Rasmussen reaffirmed NATO membership is still an option for Ukraine.

Since Ukraine isn't likely to have another pro-Russian president any time soon, partially due to a big chunk of Russian voters no longer being in the country, it just seems more likely.

First of all, Germany never had a true global empire, like the British, French, and the USA, to some extent. Hitler wrote Mein Kampf in the 1920s. He'd laid out his Imperial plans, to expand Germany into eastern Europe, long in advance of actually attempting it in the mid-30s.

Putin, on the other hand, has a very simple agenda ... restore Russia to its original power, during the height of the Soviet Empire. Thus, his friends, like Nazarbayev, the dictator of Kazakhstan, and Karimov, the dictator of Uzbekistan, are already in the fold. Central Asia and Putin are already into cahoots. The Ukraine thing, however, didn't work as originally expected so he's flexing his muscles in the region.

What does the history of Austria have to do with this thread. Austria was one of the earliest parts of the first German Empire in the middle ages and the language is German. Are you saying Austria is like Crimea?

libero says

What does the history of Austria have to do with this thread

This thread is about ... if we don't stop Putin now, next he'll invade Czechoslovakia (Czech Republic plus Slovakia), Poland, Romania, and Bulgaria, ala re-play of WWII, but replace Hitler with Putin.

Sorry, but that ain't on Vlady's agenda. He wants the Soviet Union back and he'll get it, because for the most part, it never really ended. Many current heads of state of ex-SSR republics were either former communist party members, ex-Red Army types, or ex-KGB. Basically, the current setup is a privatized version of the former USSR but without a party ideologue but with a lot of oligarchs, reporting to one Czar (or Shogun).

What happened with Yuko's oil? The rich guy didn't do as he was told. Putin sent him up the river. That's old Soviet stuff, just re-defined for a new generation.

Rin says

He wants the Soviet Union back and he'll get it, because for the most part

Not all of it. I think the Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, and the rest of the Ukraine will fight back, and get help doing it. I think those 4 countries they hate Russians as much as Poles do.

SoftShell says

You are lost and confused...

Is it not better to be thrown in jail than to just 'turn up missing'??

lostand confused says

America cannot talk about freedom to any country in the world-because we throw way more people in jail than any of them.

You are so far gone, that your bloodlust blinds you to anything but your position

zzyzzx says

Not all of it. I think the Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, and the rest of the Ukraine will fight back

I don't think he cares, so much for the first three nations. The Crimea region gives him a year long port, for his petrol ventures and so forth.

Realize, this is a privatized version of the USSR. They don't need *to save* the Estonians from capitalism anymore.

In a more privatized SSR, it's about capital controls and commercial links. Kazakhstan, right now, is an oil rich nation. Putin and Naz', are best of political friends. There isn't a single force in Kazakhstan, who'll challenge Nazarbayev, outside of a few token picketers.

If you use the same simile, the nations of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia, are basically non-strategic, former colonies on the Baltic. From the US's p.o.v., it's like wanting the Philippines back, just because we'd won the Spanish-American war.

zzyzzx says

Doesn't sound like Russia has a long history in the Crimea.

What do you consider long. The ottomons had a long rule and as they declined Russia grabbed it from them close to 300 years ago. Khrushchev "gifted it to the Ukranians a few decades ago-when they were still part of the Soviet Union. So that would be like moving the border of FL to include the rest of the SE coast line. When it split up, Russians were left there. The Tartars had nothing to do with Ukraine-but were there from the ottoman days. Ukraine has no history there-except the recent gift.

lostand confused says

What do you consider long.

I believe that the Russian majority in Crimea only goes back to after WW2. That's not very long. And yes I do think Russia is responsible for undoing everything that Stalin did.

zzyzzx says

I believe that the Russian majority in Crimea only goes back to after WW2. That's not very long. And yes I do think Russia is responsible for undoing everything that Stalin did.

I would have to dig deeper to get the population stats. But Crimea has been part of Russia for over three centuries and the Tartars are people left over from the Ottoman days-Ukraine has nothing to do with either side. Today's Russia is not responsible for what Stalin did-that is like saying every white is responsible for the actions of the slave owners and the cruelties to blacks and so are responsible for undoing all the wrongs. The present is what matters.

The Tartars have been there for a very long time yes-but if anything then Turkey would have a claim -not Ukraine.

Are you guys missing the point?

Is it up to the US and NATO allies (basically the UK & Netherlands), to sort out the issues with the former Soviet Union?

For one, I don't think so. Western Europe and the Americas come first. And then afterwards, we can worry about eastern Europe.

I doubt this if the targets were the baltic states...
Russia walks through those in a day or two....
what is NATO's move? What move is there without the risk of getting nuked?

libero says

If Ukraine and Georgia were they would be protected from such aggression because any military operation on their territory would trigger automatic military response from all 28 member countries.

No.
This thread is about if we don't stop putin now then the reconstitution of the Soviet Union will happen, along with the loss of all the gains achieved as a result of it's dismantling under Reagan.

Rin says

libero says

What does the history of Austria have to do with this thread

This thread is about ... if we don't stop Putin now, next he'll invade Czechoslovakia (Czech Republic plus Slovakia), Poland, Romania, and Bulgaria, ala re-play of WWII, but replace Hitler with Putin.

What bloodlust?
I recommended a major financial attack on Russia and the ruble.
You interpret that as war with all the blood and guts...
Better for you to lay off the Stallone flicks for awhile...

lostand confused says

SoftShell says

You are lost and confused...

Is it not better to be thrown in jail than to just 'turn up missing'??

lostand confused says

America cannot talk about freedom to any country in the world-because we throw way more people in jail than any of them.

You are so far gone, that your bloodlust blinds you to anything but your position