patrick.net

casandra says

Top for k-12 teachers is around 96 k per year

Right, but that's after 20 years of service or something. If I did the same thing for 20 years, I'd expect to make twice what the starting salaries were. The irony is these jobs are now considered overpaid now that there are no middle class jobs left, yet when I was a kid, teachers were considered poor and wasting their time when they could be in private sector making the $$$$.

And firefighters and police along with teachers were called "noble" when referred to. Now all these JOBS are GOLD.

Don't forget teachers get summers off, 3 weeks at Christmas, and one week at Easter, along with every holiday and even some Jewish holidays in the fall referred to as Lincoln's birthday. Even Veterans Day, and MLK. Also they are off by 3 pm each day. After one year teaching the job is easy and has no home time with a good teachers assistant. Every adult teacher and most k12 in LAUSD have a TA.

Oh, you can teach summers for extra pay and an increase in your Calstrs Retirement.

casandra says

teachers get summers off, 3 weeks at Christmas, and one week at Easter, along with every holiday and even some Jewish holidays in the fall referred to as Lincoln's birthday. Even Veterans Day, and MLK. Also they are off by 3 pm each day. After one year teaching the job is easy and has no home time with a good teachers assistant. Every adult teacher and most k12 in LAUSD have a TA.

This is like a vision of 1950s America. Back then, we said they got all these perks because they were getting lousy pay for a college degree.

Ah, the Bay Area, where the rich can live live like middle class and the middle class can GTFO.

But teachers jobs are dependent on kids. As long as there are kids they will have a job. I don't see kids going away anytime soon! Teachers seldom if ever lose their job and NEVER lose their pensions!

Ceffer says

Those days disappeared after 1980. The drudgery and workloads are still there, with ever increasing liability, risk and regulation, but the rewards have certainly dwindled.

That's true not just for doctors, but other high-salary jobs too, excluding finance, which is basically theft these days. Crime statistics might be down, but finance has picked up the slack.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

ASSHOLES!

No one forced them to become teachers!

I take it you never went to graduate school.

Sorry but I'm having a hard time buying this.

In a previous thread you mentioned you have $5k/mo after housing, taxes and insurance. You should be able to take some of that and apply it to housing more suitable to your dreams and still have enough left over to not have to eat out of a dumpster.

turtledove says

As a family of four, we are harmed by the fact that my husband makes a bit over 250k/year of w-2 income. We pay the most for everything. By the time taxes and health insurance are paid, we are definitely at 50%. After the house is paid, there's not much left. So, despite being a supposed member of the 1%, I find it more than a bit galling when we are all portrayed as living in mansions overlooking the Long Island Sound, with yachts, and fleets of foreign cars. We are the weakest members of the 1%, and we are the ones they are going after. If a piece of paper changes that calculus, is it really such a terrible thought? (I'm not saying that you were saying it's a terrible thought, it's a rhetorical question.)

turtledove says

Certainly people have it much harder than we do. It just pushes my buttons to be lumped in with multi-millionaire wallstreeters, when at the end of the day after taxes, health insurance, and house payment, we're left with a whopping $5k/month. Of course, we have yet to pay a single bill -- or eat, yet.... and yes, we chose to live in a high-cost area.

New Renter says

Sorry but I'm having a hard time buying this.

In a previous thread you mentioned you have $5k/mo after housing, taxes and insurance. You should be able to take some of that and apply it to housing more suitable to your dreams and still have enough left over to not have to eat out of a dumpster.

That's great that you think that $5k is all the money in the world. Not that I have to justify anything to you, but my husband then has child support he pays to his ex-wife. My kids have activities that come to about $1,500/month. We have two car payments at a total of another $1500/month. And let's not forget food and utilities. So, I know you are determined to prove that we should be saving $100s of thousands of dollars a year with that $5k/month, but it isn't happening.

turtledove says

New Renter says

Sorry but I'm having a hard time buying this.

In a previous thread you mentioned you have $5k/mo after housing, taxes and insurance. You should be able to take some of that and apply it to housing more suitable to your dreams and still have enough left over to not have to eat out of a dumpster.

That's great that you think that $5k is all the money in the world. Not that I have to justify anything to you, but my husband then has child support he pays to his ex-wife. My kids have activities that come to about $1,500/month. We have two car payments at a total of another $1500/month. And let's not forget food and utilities. So, I know you are determined to prove that we should be saving $100s of thousands of dollars a year with that $5k/month, but it isn't happening.

2 car payments at $1500/mo?

That's a "normal" lifestyle?

Zomg *brain asplodes*

Call it Crazy says

dodgerfanjohn says

2 car payments at $1500/mo?

That's a "normal" lifestyle?

Zomg *brain asplodes*

turtledove says

My kids have activities that come to about $1,500/month.

Hmmmmm......

There's around $2k a month in savings each month there in my universe.

Well start with a used mid size import sedan and a $20k base model ford explorer rather than TWO $45k cars. Of course in my life that's a used Toyota subcompact which results in gas and insurance savings as well as maintenance. And the other car...well I just took great care of that one and I've been without payments going on a decade.

Lots of people are really confused on the whole wants/needs equation thing. It's one of the areas I really picked up on in my silent generation parents and grandparents and one of the few areas of common ground I share with true liberals.

Call it Crazy says

dodgerfanjohn says

2 car payments at $1500/mo?

That's a "normal" lifestyle?

Zomg *brain asplodes*

turtledove says

My kids have activities that come to about $1,500/month.

Hmmmmm......

Allow me to elaborate. We have a Sienna and a Prius. Both bought when we moved back to the states from another country.... So we were hit with two at the same time. We have a short term in the hopes of paying them off sooner (hopefully this summer).

As for the kids activities.... You either don't have children or your children grew up a while back. My daughter is a competitive dancer. Her dance tuition is $300/month for ten hours/week of dance. She has one, one-hour private a week at $100/week. Competition fees, choreography fees for the competition dances, costumes, travel, etc... comes to another $3000/year. This is her only activity. My son is a black belt in taekwondo. Yearly membership is $2k. Testing is $1,000/year. My son also plays tennis. That $150/month for twice a week group clinics and one, one-hour private lesson at $75/week. And the total is....

Dance: $700/month x 12 months = $8400/year plus $3000 for a grand total of $11,400/year.

Taekwondo: $2000/year = $1,000/year = $3,000/year

Tennis: $150/month + $300/month = $450/month x 12 = $5400/year

Grand total: $5400+$3000+$11,400 = $19,800/year

$19900/yr / 12 = $1650/month

Are you suggesting that I should tell my children that they should give up activities that they love, work hard at, and are good at? Would they be better off refining their video game skills?

Wants/needs.

Your whining based on your economic situation is totally ridonkulous.

That is true, you know your economy is in trouble when middle class is struggling. We do have more problems today that for a long time we were all shielded from. Middle class does have more struggle with debt and housing, older folks struggle in retirement (if any) with no income and no money, we even have senior poverty making a come back. It wasn't always like that.

That's what's bothering me. Just too bad Democrats are only focused on gays and drugs instead of issues that do matter.

The article refers to what a teacher in the Bay Area could afford. Shouldn't it also apply to them having a spouse who would contribute an income to the purchase of a home. Yes, they mention a rich soused scenario, but the numbers crunched all are referring to a single income.

turtledove says

Are you suggesting that I should tell my children that they should give up activities that they love, work hard at, and are good at? Would they be better off refining their video game skills?

20 grand/year is probably more than many people's mortgage payments per year. As a result, I don't think you'll get much sympathy here, but I get what you're saying. You're in the upper middle class, and you want a lifestyle similar to what being in the upper middle class in the 80s was like.

You make a good point nonetheless. Some people in your income bracket are spending that extra $20K/year on housing and others are spending it on their kids' activities (or other things to enrich themselves or their families). Perhaps still others are spending it on student loans or something else.

I don't judge you for spending $20K/year on your kids instead of on a house, but what some of these folks are saying is that you have to recognize that it's an economic choice. You can't always have it all.

turtledove says

That's great that you think that $5k is all the money in the world. Not that I have to justify anything to you, but my husband then has child support he pays to his ex-wife. My kids have activities that come to about $1,500/month. We have two car payments at a total of another $1500/month. And let's not forget food and utilities. So, I know you are determined to prove that we should be saving $100s of thousands of dollars a year with that $5k/month, but it isn't happening

Wow! Talk about hitting a nerve!

Look you are spending $1500 A MONTH on kiddie activities alone. Then you have another $1500/mo in car payments? And on top of that you treat $5k/mo as couch change? Its no wonder you have money anxiety.

Take the kids to the community center and drive cheap but paid for with CASH cars like us po'folk and apply the money saved along with your current housing expenses to a mortgage. There is your dream house right there.

Otherwise stick the money saved into a decent stock portfolio.

FYI that $3k/mo amoritized over 30 years comes to $1.08 MILLION.

You're welcome.

dodgerfanjohn says

Wants/needs.

Your whining based on your economic situation is totally ridonkulous.

I wasn't whining. New Renter pulled up an old post on a different topic and I addressed his direct questions about why I don't spend more on housing.

New Renter, I simply answered your question. My original point was about how doctor's, who are higher wage earners, aren't exactly swimming in tons of cash. If we have to start taking our kids to community centers and buying old cars, what is the rest of the working world going to do? It's easy to say that the kids should go to a community center, and that's fine when they're starting out. However, when they reach more competitive levels, the costs go way up. My daughter is an advanced dancer. My son is getting ranked in tennis. He's in a leadership program at taekwondo training to teach. He says he plans to work summers at his dojo. Does a community center taekwondo program come with Kukiwon (sp?) certification? If not, the kid will not have his belt accepted outside his program. The community center is fine for recreational lessons, but my guys are past that. There's a cost associated with that. I'm not sure why you think I have money anxiety. It's more of a frustration that we're among the highest wage earners and that doesn't really mean as much as it used to.

bgamall4 says

But fairly normal for some nice new cars

I happen to love my car, but I don't consider Toyota to be a maker of luxury cars. As I said earlier, we pay additional each month in order to pay off the cars faster. Our required payments are $699 for the Sienna and $599 for the Prius (still $1300/month. I'm a fan of NO car payment. Can't wait until this summer when they are both paid off. I typically drive my cars forever.

turtledove says

It's more of a frustration that we're among the highest wage earners and that doesn't really mean as much as it used to.

Exactly, this is what I stated above in your defense. If you make $180-190K, that might be in the top 5% of household income, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can send your kids to a fancy private school, like back in the day if you live in a high cost area. Private schools in places like New York, LA, and San Francisco can be $40K/year, and living costs in those areas are high too, along with high state/local tax. Your after tax income in those places could be enough to send one kid if you scrimped everywhere else, but it certainly isn't enough to send two kids to a private school at that income level.

At that income level, $40K is more than than 1/3 of after tax income if you are not a homeowner and are itemizing due to high state/local tax. If you are a homeowner, your money might be going to that instead of to your kids' schools. That's all turtledove is saying.

corntrollio says

Exactly, this is what I stated above in your defense.

I appreciate that. I was feeling a little like no one was even trying to understand my vantage point. It's like I lost all my right to complain because we are upper wage earners. I'm a spoiled girl because I make supporting my kids' activities a priority over super-expensive housing.

I get that some people wish all they had to worry about was choosing between those kinds of things, but it doesn't change the fact that the only people who will be left who are able to afford anything nice for themselves or their kids are our hedgefund managers, drug dealers, and Chindian billionaires. Are we really okay with that?

For what it's worth, there are a lot of things I do without so my kids can do the things they do. I color my own hair, I shop rarely (twice a year, maybe), the only jewelry I own is my wedding set, my watch, and a ring I inherited (and we're not talking crazy stuff here). We eat out about once a quarter. I clean my own home. We take a vacation once every three to four years. I spend my little free time on Patrick because it is free. However, for those of you who still think I'm hopelessly spoiled then there's just nothing left to say.

turtledove says

I happen to love my car, but I don't consider Toyota to be a maker of luxury cars. As I said earlier, we pay additional each month in order to pay off the cars faster. Our required payments are $699 for the Sienna and $599 for the Prius (still $1300/month. I'm a fan of NO car payment. Can't wait until this summer when they are both paid off. I typically drive my cars forever.

I like cars when they are paid off too, best feeling ever. Haven't had a payment in years now, and don't miss them at all.

A doctor making 250K is not as good as "money" making 250K a year. If you want to live an mid-upper class lifestyle, you have to have money work for you. Part of it is to accumulate assets and pass it on. I think PK is retiring because he made 700K and have steady cash flow from investments in three short years, that beat the crap out of a sweat earned, taxed to death earned income. That's how it has always been and always will be.

health = wealth.
health = mental and physical.

kids are expensive but it is part of budget management. Even Facebook or Google have a budget. Just inventory what is important against your resource and that is that. If you lack resoruce, than you have to figure out how to change that. Whining and politics don't do shit.

SFace says

A doctor making 250K is not as good as "money" making 250K a year. If you want to live an mid-upper class lifestyle, you have to have money work for you. Part of it is to accumulate assets and pass it on. I think PK is retiring because he made 700K and have steady cash flow from investments in three short years, that beat the crap out of a sweat earned, taxed to death earned income. That's how it has always been and always will be.

health = wealth.

health = mental and physical.

kids are expensive but it is part of budget management. Even Facebook or Google have a budget. Just inventory what is important against your resource and that is that. If you lack resoruce, than you have to figure out how to change that. Whining and politics don't do shit.

True, but it doesn't mean you can't lobby for policies that lower taxes because while you stated the current situation correctly, it wasn't always that way throughout history and it certainly can change if people demand it. Let's face it for every successful gambler in the market there is at least one, likely more who lose out, and while I encourage investment in any form, it should be made possible with a decent salaried income instead of taking on a pile of debt and gamble and leave it to the taxpayers if it doesn't work out. People wouldn't need to gamble on a bunch of crap-shacks if they could simply get a decent return on savings if the Fed would get out of the business of suppressing interest rates. By the way 700K and some rental income is not enough to retire if you have kids (if those numbers are even real), and in the next recessions rents will drop again and vacancies increase so your stream is not guaranteed. And if your "manager" decides it's his turn to put his feet up and let your properties rot, then good luck flying back and forth from your retirement location and trying to fix the mess. I am not saying it wasn't smart to load up on properties in the past years if you had access to cheap credit, but it is nothing you can do with a family that has a more or less fixed base outside your desired retirement land. The GOP tax reform would enable a doctor to keep more of their heard earned salary without having to speculate on anything risky in the markets by simply letting them keep more of their money.

mell says

True, but it doesn't mean you can't lobby for policies that lower taxes because while you stated the current situation correctly, it wasn't always that way throughout history and it certainly can change if people demand it.

mell says

The GOP tax reform would enable a doctor to keep more of their heard earned salary without having to speculate on anything risky in the markets by simply letting them keep more of their money.

You do realize tax rates used to be significantly higher for a long time for higher income brackets?

turtledove says

New Renter, I simply answered your question. My original point was about how doctor's, who are higher wage earners, aren't exactly swimming in tons of cash. If we have to start taking our kids to community centers and buying old cars, what is the rest of the working world going to do?

Oh just wait until physicians really get to compete with H1Bs and other cheap foreign talent as most STEM professionals do.

turtledove says

It's easy to say that the kids should go to a community center, and that's fine when they're starting out. However, when they reach more competitive levels, the costs go way up.

Are your children going to be doing this professionally? Can they make a living dancing or competing in Tae Kwon Do? Are you spending their college budget on this?

turtledove says

I'm not sure why you think I have money anxiety. It's more of a frustration that we're among the highest wage earners and that doesn't really mean as much as it used to.

Join the club. My Dad was a mechanical engineer and on one engineer's salary our family was able to afford a large house in a posh area of San Jose. Now a single ME engineer's salary MIGHT get you a condo and that's only if you have a job.

turtledove says

I happen to love my car, but I don't consider Toyota to be a maker of luxury cars.

They are:
Lexus is the luxury vehicle division of Japanese automaker Toyota Motor Corporation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus

turtledove says

However, for those of you who still think I'm hopelessly spoiled then there's just nothing left to say.

I suppose its all relative. I'm hopelessly spoiled because I have a car I can expect to start each and every morning AND get me where I want without stranding me on the side of the road. Didn't always have that. I also now have the magic of A/C in the house AND the car. That my friend is pure luxury.

turtledove says

If we have to start taking our kids to community centers and buying old cars, what is the rest of the working world going to do? It's easy to say that the kids should go to a community center, and that's fine when they're starting out. However, when they reach more competitive levels, the costs go way up. My daughter is an advanced dancer. My son is getting ranked in tennis. He's in a leadership program at taekwondo training to teach.

Just like every other kid in this state who is paying his/her way into their sports. I would be good at _____ also if someone paid $1,500 a month for me to practice my hobby.

Doctor's kids must be too good for parks and playgrounds. I seem to remember growing up with a bat and ball and taking them down to the corner lot with my friends.

turtledove says

Our required payments are $699 for the Sienna

Not all Siennas cost $699/mo. But I suppose a doctor deserves leather, dvd, etc. And new. God forbid you purchase a 2 year old car.

turtledove says

I'm hopelessly spoiled

The bottom line is that a teacher's salary, even at the $50 an hour special ed job someone wrote about, will not a afford a home. The point is that rents are too high, and homes are so ridiculously priced that no one making even twice the median income could afford a home. The home prices are artificially inflated in the Bay Area. The prices are so high here that there isn't a middle-class anymore. The middle-class who live here live paycheck to paycheck and do not have savings or a retirement, so they live like the poor used to, and the upper-middle class lives like the lower middle-class or the working poor used to. We are aiming towards feudalism, and the only group that does okay in that set-up is the 1% and the people right below them do well enough to stay in line and historically do what they are told, even if the request is immoral, or lose their place, and the rest of the society is owned by the top tier and can basically die in the 1%'s wars, teach their children, fix their roads, but in the end the lower classes are expendables, and the more in debt they are, the easier they are to control.

hrhjuliet says

The bottom line is that a teacher's salary, even at the $50 an hour special ed job someone wrote about, will not a afford a home. The point is that rents are too high, and homes are so ridiculously priced that no one making even twice the median income could afford a home. The home prices are artificially inflated in the Bay Area. The prices are so high here that there isn't a middle-class anymore. The middle-class who live here live paycheck to paycheck and do not have savings or a retirement, so they live like the poor used to, and the upper-middle class lives like the lower middle-class or the working poor used to.

That's what taxpayer-funded, crony-capitalist, criminal government bailouts for the parasitic FIRE sector gets you. You would see 50-60% of today's prices/rents if we had let the financial crisis of 2008 play out in the free market and the middle class would be able to buy and rent homes. This was the one of the biggest wealth-transfers and heists in US history. The same people that gloat about their crap-shacks and babble about foreign investor money are the same people who were whining in 2008 how without government assistance they won't be able to afford their 10x leveraged crap-shack mortgage and would lose their "fortunes".

mell says

That's what taxpayer-funded, crony-capitalist, criminal government bailouts for the parasitic FIRE sector gets you. You would see 50-60% of today's prices/rents if we had let the financial crisis of 2008 play out in the free market and the middle class would be able to buy and rent homes. This was the one of the biggest wealth-transfers and heists in US history. The same people that gloat about their crap-shacks and babble about foreign investor money are the same people who were whining in 2008 how without government assistance they won't be able to afford their 10x leveraged crap-shack mortgage and would lose their "fortunes".

People posting online, and the media, need to start naming names, rather than this big generic "Crony Capitalist" title. I hate when people do that...when a real human being exists behind the title. Its always done with "CEO's" and other nonsense. Fucking name names. Right now I have Geitner, Paulson, and fucking Obama. Name me more names, or I'll assume those three have primary responsibility.

"Crony capitalist" is bullshit. I do not know who that is. Tell me specifically whose house to egg, and I'll do it.

Some of the names have been historically hidden since Jekyll Island, but I agree call them out by name. Of course you could start with the role sheet of Congress.

dodgerfanjohn says

People posting online, and the media, need to start naming names, rather than this big generic "Crony Capitalist" title. I hate when people do that...when a real human being exists behind the title. Its always done with "CEO's" and other nonsense. Fucking name names. Right now I have Geitner, Paulson, and fucking Obama. Name me more names, or I'll assume those three have primary responsibility.

"Crony capitalist" is bullshit. I do not know who that is. Tell me specifically whose house to egg, and I'll do it.

Agree, but we're all caught up in chasing dreams of financial independence while providing for the family, so without the help of the currently completely whitewashed media it will be hard to focus attention on specific people. The concrete shenanigans of Corzine, Buffet, most of the Fed, Geithner, Paulson, JPM, GS and the TBTFs are out in the open, but where there's no prosecutor (Eric "fast and furious" placeholder doesn't count), there is no crime (at least in practice). I am not optimistic that anything will change, but financial independence is hard to achieve without participating in the system itself at least at a minimum level at least for a while, that is the big catch-22. An investment fund paired with a take-no-prisoners economic blog is planned, but family comes first ;)

JH says

Just like every other kid in this state who is paying his/her way into their sports. I would be good at _____ also if someone paid $1,500 a month for me to practice my hobby.

Imagine what he'd be saying at his own retirement if mom/dad put that money into a nice Roth IRA index fund instead.

JH says

Doctor's kids must be too good for parks and playgrounds. I seem to remember growing up with a bat and ball and taking them down to the corner lot with my friends.

Well if your parents had just bought you baseball lessons you'd have been in the majors by now!

hrhjuliet says

The bottom line is that a teacher's salary, even at the $50 an hour special ed job someone wrote about, will not a afford a home.

Yes they will, just not a nice home in the SFBA. You can however get a 500 sqft shack up in the SC mountains or a 700 sqft condo in a questionable part of town.

New Renter says

Imagine what he'd be saying at his own retirement if mom/dad put that money into a nice Roth IRA index fund instead.

Shit that $1,500 is beyond max 401k contribution for a median income job!

mell says

You would see 50-60% of today's prices/rents if we had let the financial crisis of 2008 play out in the free market and the middle class would be able to buy and rent homes. This was the one of the biggest wealth-transfers and heists in US history.

I felt like most of CA was about 20% overvalued during the dip in 2011. Now we are 20-30% above that. So I completely agree with your estimate. This is why I call the current market a bull trap fueled and dragged on by the marriage of Wall Street and Washington. Most high profile marriages do not end well.

JH says

New Renter says

Imagine what he'd be saying at his own retirement if mom/dad put that money into a nice Roth IRA index fund instead.

Shit that $1,500 is beyond max 401k contribution for a median income job!

True the max contribution to an IRA is even less. Still even at the max IRA contribution of $5k/yr that leaves almost $10k/yr JUST for kids activities.