patrick.net

Yawn... ZZZZZZZ

More hype which again ducks the horrible efficiency of using hydrogen as an energy storage medium while also completely ignoring the proven fact methane is a far superior energy carrier for transportation.

John you must have sunk your life savings, career and the lives of your children behind the hydrogen economy for you to shill like this.

The only other explanation is you are a hydrogen powered bot.

Which is it?

New Renter says

methane is a far superior energy carrier for transportation.

Others may agree:

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=QTWW+Interactive#symbol=qtww;range=1y;compare=;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;

We've been hearing about the wonders of hydrogen fuel cell cars and so on for over a decade. GM has had a hydrogen fuel cell fleet of SUVs in operation for years both as test cars for families as well as the military. Their latest can easily go 300+ miles on a tank.

That still doesn't solve the issue that is the insurmountable flaw with hydrogen, which others have mentioned is that its inefficient as a fuel source because you have to use more fuel to make it in the first place. As long as that is the case- which from a molecular level will be- then hydrogen will continue to be a poor choice.

edvard2 says

its inefficient as a fuel source because you have to use more fuel to make it in the first place.

http://www.hypersolar.com/

HyperSolar has developed a breakthrough technology to make renewable hydrogen using sunlight and any source of water. Renewable hydrogen, the cleanest and greenest of all fuels, can be used as direct replacement for traditional hydrogen, which is usually produced by reforming CO2 emitting natural gas.

But but but... we can find enough platinum on other planets in other solar systems to build fuel cells! And the human race has a spotless record of no pipeline leaks EVAR, so it should be no problem to transport the leakiest possible gas over great distances!

As the article says: "Where there's a will, there's a way." So we should go to hydrogen, even if it's a less efficient and dirtier technology than the alternatives!

John Bailo says

HyperSolar has developed a breakthrough technology to make renewable hydrogen using sunlight and any source of wate

I tried to carefully explain this before. It doesn't matter whether you are using solar, wind, hydro, or burning cow crap: The result is the same. If you want to generate hydrogen, you will need to use TWICE the amount of Solar, wind, hydro, and cow crap to do so. That is the reality of the situation.

edvard2 says

If you want to generate hydrogen, you will need to use TWICE the amount of Solar, wind, hydro,

I get this a lot. No matter how many times I post an explanation, you and your cohorts don't want to accept facts.

You must start with the concept of catalysis. Try and study up, then
post. As it is, you're just digging a bigger hole for yourself intellectually.

HydroCabron says

we can find enough platinum on other planets in other solar systems to build fuel cells!

We now have some potential replacements for platinum.

Can cobalt-graphene catalyst beat platinum?
http://news.brown.edu/pressreleases/2012/10/catalyst

marcus says

that getting it up and going is much further off than electric

That same car is shipping now in Europe. A production fuel cell SUV. It's not further off. It's here. America is just behind on the technology.

John Bailo says

You must start with the concept of catalysis. Try and study up, then

post. As it is, you're just digging a bigger hole for yourself intellectually.

Please post something the best source you have which exlplains why hydrogen is better (or even as good) as simply using electricity directly
- although yes there are battery issues there as well).

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Comptroller says

AND can it go 0-180 in 4 seconds to inspire consumer interest?

The acceleration is more a facet of electric motors in general. And both battery cars and FCVs use electric motors!

This is why it's somewhat amusing that Tesla bills itself as a "sports car" when it's in fact more of a cargo vehicle designed to haul heavy batteries. The main sportiness is the quick acceleration of all types of electric vehicles...so even a fuel cell pickup truck would be "sporty".

John Bailo says

That same car is shipping now in Europe. A production fuel cell SUV. It's not further off. It's here. America is just behind on the technology.

I meant further off in being able to do it efficiently, cheaply, and with fueling stations everywhere.

This hydrogen fuel cell will be nothing but a curiosity in five years when supercapacitors revolutionize the battery and usher in a new era of electric vehicles that allow for 500 mile ranges, ultimate acceleration, carbon-based components that can be manufactured at a tenth the cost of lithium batteries, and can be charged in three minutes.

Outside the efficiency of producing H2 and the catalyst, I read in order to store it in limited space it must be liquefied, very low temps (–250 degree C) + very high pressure = very energy intensive. Even then, the energy density per volume is about a quarter of gasoline.

The hydrogen is kept into a high pressure tank where it boils. Being a small molecule and hard to restrain, it tends to escape, or diffuse through any liner material intended to contain it, leading to the embrittlement of the tank.

Because of the temperature, it must be carefully insulated, and ice may form around the tank and help to corrode it.

Over time the gas escapes and the tank empties. You leave your car without driving for the weekend and a portion of your gas is gone. So much for storage.

And it's a greenhouse gas too, in addition to whatever CO2 is rejected during its production.

Nanoscale coatings improve stability and efficiency of devices for renewable fuel generation

http://phys.org/news/2013-11-nanoscale-coatings-stability-efficiency-devices.html

New Renter says

energy storage medium

Storage is one issue...and compressed hydrogen is a more than adequate solution since we now have vehicles whose range is beyond 300 miles, standard.

Generation and transporation are equally important.

Think of Hydrogen like http on the Internet.

It doesn't matter how you build your web pages, so long as you can transmit it with http because on the other end you know someone will be able to read it.

Same with hydrogen. There are many ways to generate it...from fossil fuels with reforming, from renewable sources using electrolysis, and from the newer catalyzing processes using sunlight directly.

So, an alternative to long power lines are hydrogen pipelines.

New Renter says

Yes really! 20-25% more efficient than gasoline in an internal combustion engine. I was wrong. Thank you HC.

See how that works John?

That is only relevant if the price of gasoline and hydrogen were the same per kg. The only number that matters is the cost per mile.

John Bailo says

Natural gas...is hydrogen!

So are people by your logic.

Why not propane instead of natural gas? The infrastructure is much cheaper to implement, engine conversions are cheaper, propane gives vehicles better range (close to gasoline, but still a bit less), it's way easier to store and transport in liquid form, it won't reduce engine efficiency (105 octane), and propane is still quite a bit cleaner than gasoline.

In fact, the ultimate could be a propane-powered hybrid until EV gets perfected.

bob2356 says

John Bailo says

Natural gas...is hydrogen!

So are people by your logic.

Soylent green is ...HYDROGEN!!!!

bob2356 says

The only number that matters is the cost per mile.

As part of its lease for $499 per month, Hyundai is paying all fuel costs for its hydrogen SUVs.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20131125/OEM05/311259930/hyundais-salvo-may-signal-the-start-of-a-fuel-cell-fight#axzz2ly8S8lft

debyne says

Why not propane instead of natural gas?

Why not? I'm ready to go off-grid with satellite internet and one of these:

500w Propane & Natural Gas Fuel Cell Systems

John Bailo says

And there are fuel cells that can use natural gas directly to generate electricity, such as the stationary ones built by Fuel Cell Energy:

As well as Bloom energy:

http://www.bloomenergy.com/

bob2356 says

New Renter says

Yes really! 20-25% more efficient than gasoline in an internal combustion engine. I was wrong. Thank you HC.

See how that works John?

That is only relevant if the price of gasoline and hydrogen were the same per kg. The only number that matters is the cost per mile.

Price is certainly an important factor. I was merely acknowledging the greater Carnot efficiency of hydrogen over gasoline as a fuel for an ICE.

Of course you can run methane on the diesel cycle using a pilot diesel ignition system to boost efficiency.

John Bailo says

debyne says

Why not propane instead of natural gas?

Why not? I'm ready to go off-grid with satellite internet and one of these:

500w Propane & Natural Gas Fuel Cell Systems

Actually if you are still dependent on purchased propane you are not really off the grid.

I'd pass on this one and get a fuel cell which can be used in a combined cycle, that is use the waste heat in your water heater, HVAC system, pool, growhouse, whatever. That way you are using 90% or more of the energy in the fuel.

http://electriccarsreport.com/2013/10/panasonic-tokyo-gas-unveil-home-fuel-cell-unit-for-condos/

John Bailo says

Why not? I'm ready to go off-grid with satellite internet and one of these:

500w Propane & Natural Gas Fuel Cell Systems

John I have to call BULLSHIT on these wonder systems you keep seeing on the internet. Why is it, they never have any other links to these products other than that just that one vague landing page, and a contact form. I mean where's the price, local dealer links, call now, or order here links?

It's not just this device, but almost every green energy device that I find on the internet, why aren't these devices click through ready to have orders placed? Is the whole green movement just a game? Or are there regulations and restrictions that the very administration that professes to be the Green President places on them that restricts open access to these products, other than just to tease our asses? Why aint this shit on Amazon if it's so great, or Homedepot for that matter?

"I don't know what you guys are doing, but you better cut it out!"

CaptainShuddup says

John I have to call BULLSHIT on these wonder systems you keep seeing on the internet. Why is it, they never have any other links to these products other than that just that one vague landing page, and a contact form. I mean where's the price, local dealer links, call now, or order here links?

Well...

Fuel cells come at a hefty cost

Residential fuel cells aren’t cheap. A system can cost $50,000, and that’s not counting installation. A federal tax credit can help defray some of the expense, as can energy savings once the system is up and running. Manufacturers estimate a system can lower utility bills by as much as 40% a year. That’s an annual savings of $890 for the average home owner, making fuel cells best suited for regions with well-above-average energy costs.

http://www.houselogic.com/home-advice/saving-energy/tax-credits-residential-fuel-cells/#.

$50k + installation?! Damn, I'll stick with grid power.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Comptroller says

People could get excited about this and you could sell it as a useful tool in managing like in Cannibal Anarchy. The ultimate escape hatch when things are getting dicey and the cannibals at the door.

Yep!