patrick.net

part of the problem with internet forums are you really don't even know who you're talking to.

Yeah, especially when you get the gender wrong ;)
I have quite a few relatives in the northern US and Canada and have been debating against anti-american stances amongst my friends in Europe whenever appropriate. I don't like being pressed into any political stereotype (why is that sometimes so hard to understand) and last time I checked the cold war was over.

49

MershedPerturders 2013 Sep 19, 1:07pm

"There is no such thing as a national feeling that aims only to benefit personal interest."

-Mein Kampf

50

MershedPerturders 2013 Sep 19, 1:09pm

If mell's attitude continues to proliferate, California, and most of the country will be completely unliveable. They try to justify it with these absurd 'free market' ideas, but it's just about personal gain. You will find invariably that these people belong to some other ethnic group and they view America as a place to 'make money' as mell has already described.

51 mell 2013 Sep 19, 1:10pm

you want to see what Russian Culture is like?

Ok I get it you don't think much of Russia - let's just agree to disagree. But really plenty of homeless and drugged people peeing and shitting on the streets of San Francisco every day in broad daylight, sometimes "sprinkling" people passing by on their way to work.. Esp. when it comes to homelessness numbers the US does not look good. Quality of live is a very complex and sometimes subjective matter.

52 mell 2013 Sep 19, 1:14pm

If mell's attitude continues to proliferate, California, and most of the country will be completely unliveable. They try to justify it with these absurd 'free market' ideas, but it's just about personal gain. You will find invariably that these people belong to some other ethnic group and they view America as a place to 'make money' as mell has already described.

I'm not a die-hard Libertarian just because I don't like the Fed and the useless wars we waste money and lives on, and advocate the federal legalization of pot etc. Or maybe I am, but no politician or political party is perfect. There are many variations, this one for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_libertarianism

53

Bellingham Bill 2013 Sep 19, 1:19pm

I'm a left-libertarian more or less.

I'd like to think Geolibertarianism would be sufficient, but I do know it's necessary.

Even the socialist scandinavian paradises have now screwed themselves again letting their land markets get out of whack, with truly colossal borrowing being allowed to go on, from the Netherlands to Sweden.

54

MershedPerturders 2013 Sep 19, 1:28pm

Even the socialist scandinavian paradises have now screwed themselves again letting their land markets get out of whack, with truly colossal borrowing being allowed to go on, from the Netherlands to Sweden

ultimately any nation rests on the work and honor of it's citizens. You can't get people to work hard, risk their lives, and honor a country that they don't have any ownership in. It works for a while, get people to develop markets and give them what they believe is a everlasting title to land while they work, work, work for it. Then everything changes, the politics flip over and those people lose their holdings(probably by jacking up property taxes). Do you really think the country will bail out bankrupt california while californians pay very low property taxes? nope- first the taxes will shoot sky high.

I still remember in the late 80s, people couldnt get rid of their property. It was a pain to own it. To many rules for tenants, too high taxes- that's what owning property will be like. You can't stop it, because the younger generations are just getting angry, they're stating their grievances, theyre organizing, and you wont be able to stop them.

55 mell 2013 Sep 19, 1:30pm

I'm a left-libertarian more or less.

I'd like to think Geolibertarianism would be sufficient, but I do know it's necessary.

Even the socialist scandinavian paradises have now screwed themselves again letting their land markets get out of whack, with truly colossal borrowing being allowed to go on, from the Netherlands to Sweden.

I think that's very interesting but very hard to merge with the traditional strong "property rights" in the sense that people consider land property as well. Personally I could go with trying it (I am not big on owning) after some practical problems are solved (who determines how much which land is worth, politicians?) , but if people think "regular" Libertarians are already way out there they will have an equally hard if not harder time with this concept ;)

56

MershedPerturders 2013 Sep 19, 1:38pm

all these ideas like Geolibertarianism seem just dandy if you have time to wank off on internet forums all day. Im interested in practical solutions that work.

57 Reality 2013 Sep 19, 2:50pm

I'd like to think Geolibertarianism would be sufficient, but I do know it's necessary.

There is nothing libertarian about "Geolibertarianism." It should be properly called Geosocialism. It's a good sign that nowadays even the closet socialists are afraid of associating themselves with the S-word. Nothing but disaster will come out of central planning by bureacrats, regardless whether the finite resource under management is goods, labor or land.

Even the socialist scandinavian paradises have now screwed themselves again letting their land markets get out of whack, with truly colossal borrowing being allowed to go on, from the Netherlands to Sweden.

The common failing is socialist central planning, especially for their currency. It is not a co-incidence the in Karl Marx' Communist Manifesto of 1848, Plank #5 (out of 10 planks) is advocacy for central banking.

58

indigenous 2013 Sep 19, 3:06pm

indigenous says

MershedPerturders says

indigenous, how close are you to retirement?

Not for awhile. Why?

what's 'a while'?

Do you have a point?

59 mell 2013 Sep 19, 3:26pm

Nothing but disaster will come out of central planning by bureacrats, regardless whether the finite resource under management is goods, labor or land.

That would have been where I see the biggest issue, somebody would have to "plan" and "assess" the value of the land in order to figure out what others have to pay to use it. However we do have the concept of common land even in the current system, e.g. beaches/parks that cannot be build upon to guarantee access for the public or other national parks/forests where it is the government who charges fess for use in exchange for upkeep. Also, if you reduce the scope of the government and partition it into smallest possible communities (which have some sort of autonomy in deciding how "their" land is used), then central planning can be minimized - not sure about the bureaucracy ;)

60

MershedPerturders 2013 Sep 19, 3:40pm

Libertarianism: proof that an indoctrination campaign can get people to believe just about anything.

61

indigenous 2013 Sep 19, 3:50pm

It seems to me that the Fed, being broke read beyond broke, can no longer afford to bribe the states with the federal whatever program, consequently it seems to me that more and more states are going to be nullifying the FED rather than the other way around. What is your take on this?

Do yous see that the Libertarian party is gaining populararity? Of course Noam Chomsky thinks he is a Libertarian, so maybe it is wishful thinking

62 Reality 2013 Sep 19, 3:51pm

Libertarianism: proof that an indoctrination campaign can get people to believe just about anything.

Like the all-knowing and all-good Government-God that the closet socialists and out-of-closet socialists are brain-washed into believing and presuming in every single argument.

63

MershedPerturders 2013 Sep 19, 4:00pm

the fact is that there is only one government solution left: National Socialism.

what this suggests however is a question none of us are willing to ponder: what ethnicity constitutes the nation?

ultimately, it's about survival. When you subtract all these silly notions of wealth and innovation, you are left with the issue of FAMILY, and family leads to TRIBE. What tribe do you belong to? it will be a far more important question than it is today.

our current economies run on borrowed money from the future. Eventually, when enough people want to collect on that borrowed money, the system completely collapses in on itself. Not only does it render the nation insolvent, it renders the entire national concept INVALID.

who is ultimately going to be responsible for these wars, this pollution, this waste, this inhuman abuse? WHO? some asshole in a convertible in california, twice divorced, on pharmaceutical drugs, a pointless job in processing some nonsense in some office somewhere in bay area?

Americans have really lost sight of reality, they don't consider the effect they're having on the world, they dont think about how much the world hates them all and wants their way of life to end.

64

indigenous 2013 Sep 19, 4:22pm

the fact is that there is only one government solution left: National Socialism.

Mashed tators

You are ambigous. We have socialism now?

In large part the debt will be paid for through inflation. If the polticians grow a pair they will just default, as you said at that point it will be about survival.

I'm not sure we are as hated as you think.

If the country did default then the healing could begin. Unfortunately it will instead gimp along like the UK or Argentina for an extended period

65

MershedPerturders 2013 Sep 19, 4:46pm

if we hyperinflate to pay the debt, we will not be able to finance anything including our military and many other important things. We will not be able to afford oil. Anyone on a pension will not be able to buy anything with their payments.

this American form of domination is coming to an end very soon. Can't you see them positioning themselves? Can't you see our government preparing for this eventuality?

you can't see if you don't open your eyes.

66

MershedPerturders 2013 Sep 19, 4:48pm

indigenous says

I'm not sure we are as hated as you think.

people pretend to like America if they're making money. eg. mell

could anyone actually LIVE in this horror system where everything is a money making venture referred to as Libertarianism? absolutely not, but they have you wonking away while they turn the country into their property where it was once your home.

67 thomaswong.1986 2013 Sep 19, 6:08pm

mell says

Putin may be out now and there seems to be a slight recent slowdown amid continued inflationary forces, but I'd still call this a heck of an economic track record

he doesnt have to deal with environmentalists when they are putting the oil pipline into europe. russias GDP all driven by natural resources.

68

freak80 2013 Sep 19, 10:19pm

Who would be doing that limiting for you?

Some might say "we the people."

That is a silly point to make . . . as silly as saying many people are born prettier than others. Big fricking deal. Do we need "beauty equalization"?

Ok, so you don't have a problem with aristocracy. But many people do, including myself.

69

Automan Empire 2013 Sep 20, 1:38am

thomaswong.1986 says

he doesnt have to deal with environmentalists when they are putting the oil
pipline into europe. russias GDP all driven by natural resources.

I'm not sure the residents of Chelyabinsk and Chernobyl share your disdain for environmentalists. Do you really want to include Russia in your passive-aggressive musings about environmentalists?

70 dublin hillz 2013 Sep 20, 2:52am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockean_proviso

what this suggests however is a question none of us are willing to ponder:
what ethnicity constitutes the nation?

ultimately, it's about survival. When you subtract all these silly notions of
wealth and innovation, you are left with the issue of FAMILY, and family leads
to TRIBE. What tribe do you belong to? it will be a far more important question
than it is today.

Well Charles Manson believed that race war was inevitable .... he turned out to be dead wrong on this issue. In general, I don't see tribe strife happening in america. In essence, this is what "american exceptionalism" is all about - not seeing yourself and others as part of specific tribes like they do in eastern europe and middle east for example. In fact, many people precisely came to america to get away from this primitive bullshit.

71

MershedPerturders 2013 Sep 20, 4:52am

dublin hillz says

In fact, many people precisely came to america to get away from this primitive bullshit.

most people came to america to make money lawlessly so they can bring money to their tribe back home.

so far the American experiment hasn't worked without borrowing massively on the future.

72

Bellingham Bill 2013 Sep 20, 5:19am

freak80 says

Ok, so you don't have a problem with aristocracy. But many people do, including myself.

I don't have a problem with inherited wealth per se.

I do have a problem with people selling (or leasing) me the commons they've claimed for themselves.

That's the fundamental injustice, something John Locke nailed a long time ago.

73

Bellingham Bill 2013 Sep 20, 5:23am

mell says

(who determines how much which land is worth, politicians

highest bidder more or less (there's an infinite amount of issues to be hashed out with LVT -- tax abatements for land-intensive but valued uses, security of tenancy for people as they age, etc)

they key thing is that a given plot's economic value is very dependent on its zoning, so how things gets zoned is the true determinant of prices.

74

MershedPerturders 2013 Sep 20, 5:36am

freak80 says

Ok, so you don't have a problem with aristocracy. But many people do, including myself.

I don't have a problem with inherited wealth per se.

I do have a problem with people selling (or leasing) me the commons they've claimed for themselves.

That's the fundamental injustice, something John Locke nailed a long time ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockean_proviso

give me an example of something that wasn't 'commons'

75

indigenous 2013 Sep 20, 5:55am

so far the American experiment hasn't worked without borrowing massively on the future.

What a dumbass comment. It has worked better than any other "experiment" in history. Especially before your socialist vermin sunk their claws into the economy about 100yr ago.

76

MershedPerturders 2013 Sep 20, 6:26am

indigenous says

It has worked better than any other "experiment" in history.

Hi!

I have over 3 rental properties and I declare the American Experiment a resounding success!

-stupid clueless boomer

77 Reality 2013 Sep 20, 11:25am

freak80 says

Some might say "we the people."

Let's see, "we the people" voted for the lawmakers who pass laws that they do not read, that the bureaucrats do not abide by anyway.

Ok, so you don't have a problem with aristocracy. But many people do, including myself.

Aristocracy is maintained by government granted privileges. The free market place was historically what chipped away Aristocracy. Every parent wants his/her child to have a good start . . . meaning better than average start in life. Therein lies the statistical impossibility: everyone can not be above average! Government official privilege is what builds aristocracy as bureaucrats have children too!

78

MershedPerturders 2013 Sep 20, 11:36am

Let's see, "we the people" voted for the lawmakers who pass laws that they do not read, that the bureaucrats do not abide by anyway.

"America is the best system every invented! How else could a lazy idiot like me whose primary interest is cheeseburgers and sex accumulate property? Impossible in any other country! God bless our troops for making America safe for illegal aliens and corrupt banking practices."

79 Reality 2013 Sep 20, 11:48am

The "Robber Baron" term was coined in the late 19th century. The per capita income in the US increased from roughly 1% per year to 2% per year in the middle decades of the 19th century, after the "Robber Barons" built the turnpikes, canals and railroads.

The "GNP"/"GDP" during much of FDR years were measuring make-belief jobs and jobs killing people. The planes and bombs burning down Dresden were counted as US/UK GDP/GNP; the AA fire killing US/UK air crewmen were counted as German GDP/GNP. The world's GDP/GNP mushroomed as the citizens roasted in fire.

80

MershedPerturders 2013 Sep 20, 12:00pm

The "Robber Baron" term was coined in the late 19th century. The per capita income in the US increased from roughly 1% per year to 2% per year in the middle decades of the 19th century, after the "Robber Barons" built the turnpikes, canals and railroads.

wth are you talking about?

most of America's infrastructure was built by FDR through civil labor programs.

81 Reality 2013 Sep 20, 12:04pm

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special_pleading

wth are you talking about?

most of America's infrastructure was built by FDR through civil labor programs.

What parallel universe would that be? Railroads were built in the 19th century. The national highway program started under Eisenhower in the 1950's. The Hoover Dam is called Hoover Dam, not FDR Dam, for a reason. Not that any of them couldn't have been built less expensively.

82

freak80 2013 Sep 20, 12:46pm

indigenous says

You did not listen to a single thing Reality said about how thpse books are cooked, a while back.

83

freak80 2013 Sep 20, 12:51pm