patrick.net

trade deficit is worse than government budget deficit.

xenogear3 says

trade deficit is worse than government budget deficit.

The two are related. Since money leaving the country tends to not gets taxed here.

curious2 says

Deficits do matter

No, actually I don't think they do.

I used to think so, but the more I ponder money and economies the more I realize it's all pretend. Billionaires welch on their debts all the time with no consequences. The few cases where debts seemed to matter, are paraded around as EXAMPLES. It's like Reefer Madness, we worry to death about our kids, but in fact they'll mostly be fine. For every Zimbabwe there's a hundred Icelands. I have come to believe that the feared crushing consequences are a case of the specter is usually worse than the reality.

oaky says

who gives a fuck

Vicente says

I used to think so, but the more I ponder money and economies the more I realize it's all pretend.

This precise attitude of common people is the most scary thing.
You really think like Cheney, that world's largest stockpiles of nuclear weapons is going to save the country from any consequences?

Moreover, this gigantic pile of debt is actually going to fall on the common people of the country, not on billionaires.

Clearly you did not study history carefully. Romans or British used think the same as some of us think today. But history and math are bitches. They don't lie. You cannot keep getting something for nothing forever.

Here is a small excerpt from http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/fallromeeconomic/a/econoffall.htm
>>

Nero and other emperors debased the currency in order to supply a demand for more coins. By debasing the currency is meant that instead of a coin having its own intrinsic value+, it was now only representative of the silver or gold it had once contained. By the time of Claudius II Gothicus (268-270 A.D.) the amount of silver in a supposedly (100%) silver denarius was only .02%.

gsr says

This precise attitude of common people is the most scary thing.

Yep. Then why not give everybody a printing press and the right to counterfeit? It can only be good for the economy! ;)

mell says

why not give everybody a printing press and the right to counterfeit? It can only be good for the economy! ;)

This is the best response to Bubbles Ben's printing policy. If creating money is such a patriotic elixir, shouldn't we all pitch in and do our part? Why should he and his lemon socialist cronies have to do all the work of creating all that money for their TBTF banks, and spending all those bonuses themselves? Surely we the people should help. If every PatNet reader were allowed to print just one billion dollars, we could stimulate the economy in no time.

Likewise the deficits: instead of sending billions to Halliburton and so on, to be repaid later by everyone else, send that money to PatNet readers. After all, if deficits don't matter, nobody will miss it.

Fannie and Freddie... makin' money for the people (at least until they don't).

Vicente says

curious2 says

Deficits do matter

No, actually I don't think they do.

I used to think so, but the more I ponder money and economies the more I realize it's all pretend. Billionaires welch on their debts all the time with no consequences. The few cases where debts seemed to matter, are paraded around as EXAMPLES. It's like Reefer Madness, we worry to death about our kids, but in fact they'll mostly be fine. For every Zimbabwe there's a hundred Icelands. I have come to believe that the feared crushing consequences are a case of the specter is usually worse than the reality.

If you're a one-percenter, you're probably happy with the status quo. The rest of us, not so much. The working class in the U.S. is being systematically decimated.

“the standard set of extraordinary measures"

seems to be an oxymoron...

Homeboy says

If you're a one-percenter, you're probably happy with the status quo. The rest of us, not so much. The working class in the U.S. is being systematically decimated.

Probably, but one reason is because the 99% buy into morality garbage about debt. The 1% certainly don't live by it. That the chart above doesn't really sink in for most people, is a symptom of how thoroughly they are indoctrinated with The American Dream. That if they work hard, there will be a payoff you betcha, it won't be robbed by rent-seekers and money-changers.

Anyhow, that's a different aspect. I don't however believe that automatically debt results in Mad Max. Donald Trump alone should prove this wrong, but examples abound. No economic system has to be perfect, it just has to be "good enough" to keep shambling along. Karl Denninger has been predicting Mad Max RIGHT FUCKING NOW for years, and the excuse when it doesn't come, is always that those Feds who are morons who cannot see Truth, manage to be genius who trickily "kick the can" one more quarter, then another, then another. It never occurs to Karl they are neither morons or genius, and that he may not be the prophet he thinks he is.

Peter G. Peterson, one of the bannermen of DEBT HYSTERIA, is not exactly a poster boy against debt. What is his contribution as a billionaire? The Blackstone Group, which as an investment entity is no stranger to debt itself.

Once upon a time I would have been waving the debt flag myself, but I've lost my enthusiasm for it on deeper examination.

Vicente says

No economic system has to be perfect, it just has to be "good enough" to keep shambling along.

You may think a system where the rich continue to get even richer, the poor get poorer, and the middle class is going away is "good enough", but I do not. I don't think that's at all "good enough". And what's more, it simply defies common sense to believe debt does not matter. Of course it matters. I don't think you really understand what's happening in the US. The 1% did not succeed in their economic coup just by ignoring debt; they have in effect STOLEN the wealth from the middle class. Debt doesn't just vanish; there is always a price to pay. If I borrow $100 from you, and then when you ask for it back, I instead punch you in the face, I will have succeeded in disregarding that debt. But YOU will be $100 poorer.

Right now, the ones who are paying the price are the working class, whose wages have been stagnant for decades while the elite grab a bigger and bigger piece of the pie.

"I'm doing just fine. There's nothing wrong with the system."

Economic Denialists, histories war criminals.

Homeboy says

You may think a system where the rich continue to get even richer, the poor get poorer, and the middle class is going away is "good enough", but I do not.

Neither do I, don't put words in my mouth. However I simply don't see things as inevitable and simple as you do. Simply put, the wealth gap is not owing to Federal public debt. Private debt? You don't talk about that, but it's surely a factor. The size of all the private & invisible debts dwarfs public by quite a lot. Also tax policy which clearly favors rent-seekers and parasites. I'm no fan of Congress, or the Federal Reserve, but clearly the US managed to survive for many decades with the system fine. Glass Steagall repeal did far greater damage, than worries about public debts or monetary policy. Public debt was VERY HIGH after WWII, but the policies of the time ensured that revenues were there to pay it down.

Vicente says

Glass Steagall repeal did far greater damage

Bullshit
Vicente says

Public debt was VERY HIGH after WWII, but the policies of the time ensured that revenues were there to pay it down.

That is true
Vicente says

Private debt? You don't talk about that, but it's surely a factor.

But that is backed by collateral

indigenous says

Public debt was VERY HIGH after WWII, but the policies of the time ensured that revenues were there to pay it down.

That is true

It also helped that 10's of millions of unemployed people were killed!

Is that what it will take for the USA to get fixed? You hope not!

puhim says

It also helped that 10's of millions of unemployed people were killed!

Is that what it will take for the USA to get fixed? You hope not!

Perhaps.

But the main thing that changed was FDR died, and his asinine policies went with him.

Vicente says

Neither do I, don't put words in my mouth.

You wrote, and I quote: "No economic system has to be perfect, it just has to be "good enough" to keep shambling along."

I did not put the words "good enough" in your mouth. You WROTE them. I don't know what you're talking about. Surely you're not disagreeing that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, are you? Because that's easily proven. In fact I already proved it earlier.

However I simply don't see things as inevitable and simple as you do.

Hmmm... aren't YOU the one who is oversimplifying? You seem to think everything functions exactly as it did in the simplistic models you studied in Econ 101. The U.S. economy is not healthy, despite what the Keynesians are telling you. Look at a chart of wealth disparity over time; it's getting worse and worse. THAT'S the proof that something is wrong. An economy where only 5% or so of the population benefit is not a healthy one.

Simply put, the wealth gap is not owing to Federal public debt. Private debt? You don't talk about that, but it's surely a factor. The size of all the private & invisible debts dwarfs public by quite a lot.

You lost me. YOU are the one who held up private debt of an example of how debt supposedly doesn't matter. You said " The 1% certainly don't live by it", and " Donald Trump alone should prove this wrong, but examples abound." You seemed to be arguing that since the ultra-wealthy are surviving in spite of debt, that the same would apply to the government. What I'm trying to say is that those people have rigged the game. They are surviving because they influenced the government to give them economic advantages that the rest of us don't have. They aren't surviving simply because debt is good.

Also tax policy which clearly favors rent-seekers and parasites. I'm no fan of Congress, or the Federal Reserve, but clearly the US managed to survive for many decades with the system fine. Glass Steagall repeal did far greater damage, than worries about public debts or monetary policy. Public debt was VERY HIGH after WWII, but the policies of the time ensured that revenues were there to pay it down.

I thought your point was that debt is not a problem for the U.S. government, so I don't see what any of that has to do with the topic.

This huge pile of debt is definitely bullish!

The sky was falling when it hit 5 trillion I bet.

I say jack that sucker up as high as it can go. USA should open some new credit card accounts and get some bling.

Homeboy says

I did not put the words "good enough" in your mouth. You WROTE them. I don't know what you're talking about. Surely you're not disagreeing that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, are you? Because that's easily proven. In fact I already proved it earlier.

The words I did not like being put in my mouth, is that I'm OK with the wealth gap, when I'm not.

Clear? You imply I'm OK with something I am not. Debt/deficits is not only not THE ISSUE, it doesn't even rank in the top 10.

Homeboy says

Look at a chart of wealth disparity over time; it's getting worse and worse. THAT'S the proof that something is wrong. An economy where only 5% or so of the population benefit is not a healthy one.

What's the relationship below?

You keep jumping to the conclusion, that the reason we have a wealth gap, is because of public debt. I just don't buy it. I am not a traitor or stupid, just because I disagree with you.

Homeboy says

You said " The 1% certainly don't live by it", and " Donald Trump alone should prove this wrong, but examples abound." You seemed to be arguing that since the ultra-wealthy are surviving in spite of debt, that the same would apply to the government.

My point being, since you are apparently ignorant of The Donald's business records, is that serial bankruptcies and high debt don't seem to slow him down. Same with America. Puritan morality is for suckers.

Perhaps you've watched the movie Americathon with John Ritter one too many times. Chief Dan George is not going to call in our markers. Bondzilla is not going to arise from the ocean and kill us all.

Vicente says

My point being, since you are apparently ignorant of The Donald's business records, is that serial bankruptcies and high debt don't seem to slow him down.

Buh? Is that not exactly how I characterized your point?

Me: "Vicente says that billionaires are doing well despite having a lot of debt."

Vicente: "Nuh uh, I said billionaires are doing well despite having a lot of debt."

?????????

Vicente says

I am not a traitor or stupid, just because I disagree with you.

Sorry, I guess I have amnesia, because I don't recall calling you either of those names.

Matrix "pill" meme was stupid when the moronic movie was still fresh.

Now it's just sad.

Government is claiming it has not spent any money for over 56 fays

Homeboy says

Look genius

Thanks!

I win!

Greece’s secret loan from Goldman Sachs Group Inc. (GS) was a costly mistake from the start.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-06/goldman-secret-greece-loan-shows-two-sinners-as-client-unravels.html

"Papanicolaou and his predecessor, Christoforos Sardelis, revealing details for the first time of a contract that helped Greece mask its growing sovereign debt to meet European Union requirements, said the country didn’t understand what it was buying and was ill-equipped to judge the risks or costs.
“The Goldman Sachs deal is a very sexy story between two sinners,” Sardelis, who oversaw the swap as head of Greece’s Public Debt Management Agency from 1999 through 2004, said in an interview."

Vicente says

Homeboy says

Look genius

Thanks!

I win!

O.K., glad you stopped acting like a baby.

puhim says

Greece mask its growing sovereign debt to meet European Union requirements, said the country didn’t understand what it was buying and was ill-equipped to judge the risks or costs.

Clearly EU had something to do with it! Clearly so did Goldman and I bet the Fed too.

puhim says

“The Goldman Sachs deal is a very sexy story between two sinners,” Sardelis, who oversaw the swap as head of Greece’s Public Debt Management Agency from 1999 through 2004, said in an interview."

Wow! Unbelievable! What a way to describe the confiscation of wealth.

"SEXY!!! Sinners!!!"

Who gives a fuck

Bm05211983 says

Who gives a fuck

Idiot.

If you don't care why post?

Who cares, this thread is fucking stupid

Using the G Fund to Help Fund Federal Expenses

During the Christmas holidays, everyone gets preoccupied with the events surrounding friends and family and the spirit of the season.

We know from past experience that the Treasury Department can use some retirement funds of federal employees to avoid increasing the debt limit which is capped by law.

JUST WAIT FOR THIS CHRISTMAS!!!

mell says

The thing is that the EU cannot engage in an insane printing bonanza like the US as its currency is not the world's reserve currency (that may or may not change but until then..). And I am glad they aren't attempting it. So their hands are more or less tied which is an advantage in this case, they will clear the bad debt much faster and come out ahead. They are currently neck-on-neck with the US in debt-to-GDP, but are more aggressively controlling spending. And if they fail the countries will lower debt-to-GDP will secede and eventually prosper.

Have you heard of SDR's ?

IMF and World Bank are going to CREATE $100TRILLION, this will be the defacto WORLD RESERVE!

PS, we hit 70 days!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/02/usa-fiscal-suspension-idUSL1N0G31O220130802

UPDATE 1-U.S. Treasury extends suspension on issuing debt