Comments 1 - 17 of 91 Next » Last » Search these comments
4) Ambulance chasers. America it the most litigious society on the planet. It forces doctors to order unnecessary "defensive" tests and procedures. Healthcare services are cheaper in states with tort reform such as damage caps in cases where gross negligence can not be proved.
5) Price fixing. Medicare and Medicaid set prices for services. This creates shortages or forces doctors into gaming the system by ordering unnecessary tests and procedures to make more money. If government is involved in healthcare services at all, it should only subsidize costs for the poor in an open and free market.
6) Insurance restrictions. Many states put restrictions on what products healthcare insurance companies can offer. This limits the choices of consumers and increases prices. For example, some states mandate that abortion or contraceptives be provided in all insurance plans. What if somebody would never have an abortion or it is cheaper to pay less for insurance and buy your own contraceptives? Government regulation is costly and sometimes immoral.
Analysis : My whole analysis will be to focus on why its not a "FREE MARKET"
Divergence from free market happens primarily because GOVT comes in between consumer and services/goods provider. Generally, once the GOVT gets involved, a third party will use its lobbying power to influence the industry ( through GOVT) to its advantage as well.
The US government has made US healthcare a huge mess. But you failed to point out which countries free market health care model you would like to see implemented. There are 36 countries with government health care which on average costs half or less of what the US spends. So obviously government in and of itself isn't the problem.
Do you have some examples of your idyllic free market system working in real life somewhere or should 330 million people in the US take it on faith that it will work?
"Given that health care is not a new industry and such a broad industry, the only reason for this divergence can be that its not a "FREE MARKET". In any free market, a broad established industry's "long term" inflation is always inline with rest of the economy. "
I'll stop you right there. Health care doesn't WORK as a free market. You're barking up the wrong tree. The US tries to have a free market, but we have one of the least efficient systems in the world, and it has nothing to do with government interference. Health insurance companies were making obscene profits, and their CEOs were commanding multi million dollar salaries, at the same time rates were skyrocketing. How you can blame that on government is incomprehensible. Every country that has government run healthcare pays LESS than we do. To say otherwise is to be completely disconnected from reality.
I think you got it all wrong. Who is saying that there was ever a free market health care system in US ?
insurance system is not a FREE MARKET.
Fine, so where are the working free markets?
Many states put restrictions on what products healthcare insurance companies can offer. This limits the choices of consumers and increases prices. For example, some states mandate that abortion or contraceptives be provided in all insurance plans. What if somebody would never have an abortion or it is cheaper to pay less for insurance and buy your own contraceptives? Government regulation is costly and sometimes immoral.
you're completely and totally wrong with all of that.
More coverage choice just makes it easier for insurance companies to offer higher-profit options, the high-deductible, low-care bullshit that is being banned by PPACA now.
As for abortion and contraception, providing those health services to people who want them is more cost-effective than paying for maternity and well-baby care.
Unless you have no women in your life you will indirectly benefit from this cost savings.
And if you have no women in your life, you are a sad person who needs to get off the internet and get a life before it's too late.
There are 36 countries with government health care which on average costs half or less of what the US spends. So obviously government in and of itself isn't the problem.
I have experienced being with family and co-workers in the UK and Germany who were sick while traveling. Compared to the USA, the level of service is poor. Price fixing limits choices and produces shortages of service providers. So it may cost more in the USA, but nobody has to wait for services and you are much more likely to get well qualified, professional service providers. Costs in the USA would come down if you took the government out of the equation. Every sector that the government gets involved in experiences extreme price inflation (eg healthcare, education, housing). More government is the problem, not a solution. However, no need to worry about that now, the choice has been made. The public decided to destroy healthcare in America when it supported Obamacare.
I still think that we can reduce costs by removing protectionism of health care industry ( #2 in my post).
I doubt that the licensing rules will change because the AMA has made their payoff to the racket.
I think you got it all wrong. Who is saying that there was ever a free market health care system in US ?
insurance system is not a FREE MARKET.A free market cannot exist with a licensing system and creating barriers for foreign doctors/nurses to practice in US
I think you aren't listening to what I'm saying. I said we TRIED to have a free market system, but healthcare does not lend itself to a free market solution.
I still think that we can reduce costs by removing protectionism of health care industry ( #2 in my post). I know the ideal solution is to get GOVT out of the industry but something is better than nothing.
Insanity. I want to see a doctor who has actual training, not some random dude who CALLS himself a doctor. I am not going to some non-licensed bozo and get butchered. If you want to do that, move to a 3rd world country.
We've got all these right-wingers screaming how much they hate Obamacare, but NONE of them ever offers a realistic alternative. Unlicensed doctors with no training - give me a fucking break.
but healthcare does not lend itself to a free market solution
This makes no sense. Why do you claim this?
Insanity. I want to see a doctor who has actual training, not some random dude who CALLS himself a doctor. I am not going to some non-licensed bozo and get butchered. If you want to do that, move to a 3rd world country.
In a free market you would have to take responsibility to vet the credentials of the doctors you choose. Typically there would be services created to make this easy. Furthermore, there are many services that doctors do that an RN or other medical professional could just as easily do like diagnosing the common cold, testing for strep throat, etc... If the symptoms you are experiencing are more severe then you decide what level of service is required. If you are more comfortable always seeing an MD then its your choice.
but healthcare does not lend itself to a free market solution
This makes no sense. Why do you claim this?
Healthcare is like national defense. It is hard to have a true market-based solution UNLESS we accept having people dying on the street.
(I have a market-based military "solution" too, but even I do not consider it sensible.)
Healthcare is like national defense. It is hard to have a true market-based solution UNLESS we accept having people dying on the street.
you are wrong. there will be charity based hospitals which will pop and atleast not allow people die. ofcource they won't get the royal treament that they get in private emergency rooms today. mandating private hospitals is not the solution.
I rather have a single-payer universal healthcare system with a parallel private system.
Health insurance does not make sense because of the moral hazard of self-selection. Yet we do not want to bankrupt people randomly because of illnesses and accidents.
As most people here know, Market is like God to me, and I advocate the privatization of all roads and sidewalks (seriously).
Yet healthcare is something as problematic as national defense for the market to handle.
Chana - common sense, and root cause analytics. Have you reviewed the French or German health care system?
We can always have insurance for catastrophic medical events. insurance for doctors visit ..etc does not make sense. Insurance should be only used for events which backrupt people and nothing else because insurance is a very in-efficient system. even in single payer universal health care system, it should be the case.
Ideally, yes. Let's see how much costs can be lowered. People should not have to spend $20K on scans and tests.
BTW, one more important thing: TORT REFORM.
Yet healthcare is something as problematic as national defense for the market to handle.
I completely disagree. Before the 30s there wasn't even such a thing as healthcare insurance. As a matter of fact, healthcare in the USA was totally private until 1965. Nobody was dying in the streets and there were numerous private, charitable organizations that took care of the poor.
Comments 1 - 17 of 91 Next » Last » Search these comments
Here is my take on the root cause of Healthcare cost in USA. I am focusing on costs because focusing on redistributing the costs ( which is mainstream media focus) does not fix the problem.
Fact : Healthcare cost is rising significantly faster than inflation in USA.
Reason : Given that health care is not a new industry and such a broad industry, the only reason for this divergence can be that its not a "FREE MARKET". In any free market, a broad established industry's "long term" inflation is always inline with rest of the economy.
Analysis : My whole analysis will be to focus on why its not a "FREE MARKET"
Divergence from free market happens primarily because GOVT comes in between consumer and services/goods provider. Generally, once the GOVT gets involved, a third party will use its lobbying power to influence the industry ( through GOVT) to its own advantage .
1) Insurance (GOVT SUBSIDIES and MANDATES) :
PROBLEM : GOVT + INSURANCE LOBBY:
Govt subsidizes health insurance ( In 1954 Congress codified this practice into the tax code ). This forced people to go through the insurance system because subsidies slowly destroyed cash driven non insurance based payments. NON catastrophic insurance is a flawed system because it makes everybody price insensitive. Since insurance pays the costs and is a pool system, nobody cares what the health industry is charging them.
imagine if insurance pays for your grocery store purchases.We will buy excessively things we don't need and waste everything.The grocery store charges will be excessive as well. There are some market forces at play here though. if the wastage goes up, insurance premium goes up and we chooses an insurance which has less premium.This creates motivation for insurance company to control costs.
But this cost control mechanism is not as efficient as free market though. its akin to soviet style centralized system versus free market capitalist system to control costs. insurance itself is a in-efficient system and should only be used for protection against catastrophic events where it serves an important function.In a free market , hospitals strive to have good reputation and offer services for low prices to attract consumers. The latter part is definitely not happening because the consumer is not price sensitive
Cosmetic surgery does not have insurance system and you can see the difference between regular industry versus cosmetic industry. The advancements in cosmetic surgery are at par with other areas of medical fields but at reduced cost because market forces are at work.

SAME WITH LASIK which is not covered in insurance.

2) GOVT PROTECTED Licensing of doctors and nurses and PROTECTIONISM:
PROBLEM = GOVT + DOCTORS/NURSES/DRUG lobby :
Licensing Doctors means that doctors need the permission of govt to provide their services. This system was not a big issue long time back when there was no globalization. As globalization started, most of the goods and services started to get cheap. Goods got cheaper because of stuff getting manufactured in foreign countries and services got cheap due to immigrants filling lot of positions. Most of the farm jobs were taken by farm labor from mexico. Engineering jobs were primarily filled with immigrants as well. This phenomenon didn't happen in medical field but only happened in field where there is no licensing needed for services ( like farming, engineering , restaurants..etc). Licensing enables protectionism. Since most of the functions of medical field are licensed including doctors, nurses and hospitals, they are protected from globalization and competition from foreign doctors/nurses who want to practice in US. This disparity caused medical field to look more expensive RELATIVE to the other fields. In essence the US consumer is not getting the benefit of cheap international labor in medicine . This probably is not the complete story and i am guessing more components of the medical bill are protected from market forces like prescription drugs..etc.
Licensing also forces some arbitrary body to decide what kind of service providers the consumer needs.If it were a free market, the market will decide what kind of training the doctors need to satisfy the demand.The salaries will also be based on the market prices. If the society is not rich , it will decide to go for doctors who are trained cheaper ( like in India). ofcourse, the quality will be lower but that's what the society can afford and is most effective. people who can afford higher quality will choose a doctor with more training. Its a self correcting system. in car industry, some consumers buy honda civics and some consumers buy a Porsche.IF govt mandates that people only buy cars with standards of porshe, most consumers will have to take public transportation because they cannot buy civic and cannot afford Porshe. Current licensing system forces a over trained doctor down the throat of consumers. actually a third party licensing body would never be able to decide what training is most effective to consumers just like soviet style centralized planning could never decide what products are needed by citizens. Free market is the answer.
Certification is better than licensing as it informs the consumer of the choices but does not force a particular choice. Hospitals will always choose the doctors with the right certification for the right job without being dictated by a licensing body. this will drive down prices.hospitals will also vet the doctors to save hospitals reputation.
from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States#Licensing_of_providers: "American Medical Association (AMA) has lobbied the government to highly limit physician education since 1910, currently at 100,000 doctors per year,[111] which has led to a shortage of doctors[112] and physicians' wages in the U.S. are double those in the Europe, which is a major reason for the more expensive health care.[113]"
113: http://reason.com/archives/2009/08/27/the-evil-mongering-of-the-amer
3) Mandating Emergency services (GOVT MANDATES) :
PROBLEM : GOVT + FREE LOADERS - Vote bank:
The day Govt mandated emergency services to general public , it created a huge sink hole in the system. Mandating hospitals to perform any services to general public irrespective of their ability to pay means in essence they are forcing some people to pay for other peoples expenses. When a hospital is performing a emergency service and the consumer does not pay it, the hospital passes on the expenses to other people. Anytime you create a system where the consumer does not have to pay himself , he becomes price insensitive and this creates lots of waste. Most countries don't have this kind of mandates. Also this creates incentive for too many people coming to emergency services instead of getting care early on which could have reduced the overall medical cost for the society.
In the absence of Govt mandate, new charity based hospitals ( partially funded by govt or private) will pop up ( like pre insurance period of 1930's) and give some form of cushion to the most needy.
MANDATING ONE PERSON TO PAY FOR ANOTHER PERSON'S EXPENSES IS NEVER A GOOD IDEA. Be it through insurance mandates, court system ( malpractice litigation expenses) or hospitals ( mandating emergency services)
4)Medical Malpractice insurance costs (GOVT forcing other people to pay a litigation winner -through malpractice insurance ):
PROBLEM : GOVT + LAWYERS LOBBY :
Giving Patients the option to Waive certain Rights to Sue for Medical Malpractice for certain services is important to address this issue. Since Medicine is not an exact science and involves considerable risk, GOVT cannot force everybody to pay for the costs of not being perfect. In essence the GOVT through their court system is forcing doctors to work overtime to make a service more risk free than its possible. after certain point there are diminishing returns in trying to reduce risk.I have heard stories that some doctors spend more time filling paperwork/unnecessary expensive tests than actually treating patients. There is some inherent risk in certain services and patients should have the option of allowing the doctors to take the risk so that the patient can get the service from doctor at reduced cost. of course driving a car involves risk but that does not mean we force all the car manufactures to design risk free cars. even if its designed, it will be unaffordable by many consumers. Another aspect of the medical malpractice is the money awarded by the courts.
The primary focus of the court system should be to create incentive for the hospitals to reduce recklessness and malpractice which can be accomplished by other punitive measures rather than awarding large sums of money to patients. example: you can suspend a doctor from practicing if he does some fraud/malpractice rather than award 1 million dollar to the patient ! The focus should be to reduce fraud not make the attorney's rich.ofcourse the money awarded should be reasonable so that attorneys are motivated to take the case but it should not be ridiculous amounts since we all have to bear the cost.
AT THE END OF THE DAY EVERYBODY IS RIPPING OFF HARDWORKING MIDDLECLASS-INSURANCE-PAYING AMERICANS.
SOLUTION WHICH WILL WORK : FREE MARKET PRIVATE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM for the majority and GOVT OR CHARITY RUN HOSPITALS FOR THE POOR AND NEEDY.