patrick.net

drew_eckhardt says

Sunnyvale must approve the re-zoning. With city council considering mobile home parks an important part of Sunnyvale's affordable housing stock this seems somewhat unlikely.

Drew, I suggest you do some volunteering at Fremont H.S. Go to the library and look at the photos of students in some old Fremont yearbooks. The trend is as obvious as those faces.

Look at the kids and the parents who drop off and pick up.

These are wealthy immigrants whose "investments" (either from "back home" money or else from hocking the tech job salary for loans) in your neighborhood are "blighted" by the presence of a trailer park. And they don't want their kids going to school with what they view as trailer trash.

Over time these folks become citizens and voters. You don't think so? Look how Cupertino has changed. This process will accelerate as things unravel in Communist China.

The school district will covet new revenue from reassessment after a trailer park is liquidated and redeveloped for expensive housing. They will share their aims about this with those parents, "it's your kids' education, and it's a way to maintain the quality without raising your taxes". Heck, if I were a competent government planner or school district finance person, I'd be shopping your park to developers with or without the knowledge of the park's owners. Get some momentum going, get out in front of it, influence the outcome.

Your association oughta be looking at the rocusa plan right now, have it ready and loaded for bear as a backup plan.

I am a renter in Campbell paying $1350 which I am sure will be raised soon enough. I am not making enough on my current job to stick around here too much longer. I am thinking about moving to Seattle because of a better job market and the cooler weather compared to places like AZ and Texas. I know this blog might be about the Bay Area but does anyone know much about the Seattle job and housing markets?

@SleeplessforSeattle,

Amazon I think is HQ in Seattle and they have jobs in tech. Same for Microsoft in Redmond. Might be go places to apply if Seattle is where you want to live.
Boeing also used to have a large presence as well. I like Seattle and Portland but it is too damp and cold and rainy for my taste. I may just bank $ and retire early in few years or work remote in sales engineering where I can live anyplace in USA and buy place in South Florida.

http://terracesonthird.com/Features_List.html

ONLY 4 million each?

I'm gonna get a 3.5% loan and rent them bothg out for $25,000/month.

I should be rich before I know it, right Roberto?

I travel to Seattle once a week for work, and have been for the last 9 months or so. It is really nice up there. As long as you are not super attached to sunshine, it is fine. If you love the outdoors, it is definitely the place for you. Yeah, you will do most of your hiking in rain gear and maybe heavier jackets, at least if you like being out year-round, but it is just different than down in the Bay Area.

There is a fair amount of resentment from the existing locals that were around before the area blew up into a tech hub, and rightfully so in some ways. It was a very blue collar area (still is if you drive for 30 minutes), and all the "tech doofuses" moved in, blew up the cost of living and brought a mix of lefty-progressivism and Chindian grab-everything-you-can culture that wasn't there previously. The area is getting more expensive, for the same reasons that the Silicon Valley is expensive, so I think that the value proposition is good for now, but getting to be less so.

I have considered moving up there for the lower overall cost of living (employees at the campus up there are paid less for the same position, but housing is still cheaper relative to wages there). It is hard though since 80% of my family, immediate and extended, lives in the Bay Area, and I am an avid outdoorsman/climber so the fact that we have no weather here is a real plus. There is actually more/cooler stuff up in Seattle as far as the outdoors goes, but it would be more work to do it year-round, and I really like my Vitamin-D lol.

I have been to enough major metros around the globe, and a good dozen other states in the US to visit friends and relatives. Honestly, the Bay Area is completely overrated, at least if you take the cost of living into account. It is a giant, dull, grey splatter of concrete and endless dumpy suburbs. People come here because there are high paying jobs, not really accounting for the fact that their higher wages are instantly absorbed in the cost of living and raising a family here. Immigrants love it because it has a lot of immigrants already. I don't blame them for not wanting to move to white-bread states where they get stares at the gas station. On top of that, I think that it has hit a sort of "critical mass" in terms of popularity and cost. "The Bay Area MUST be good because it is so expensive and everyone wants to live there! So I want to live there too!" Never mind any actual analysis of the fundamentals.

People claim to love the weather here. Well, I call BS. Most people, as far as I can tell, only experience the weather when they are walking to and from their cars at the office. The rest of the time they are staring at a computer screen or their TV. As a person that spends 6-10 hours a week outside fucking around for fun, it really rustles my jimmies to have so many people drive the cost of living up for "the weather" when they have no clue what they are talking about. Sorry about the arrogance on this one, I know I am exaggerating a little. Talking shit is fun sometimes!

I have been without a car for the last 6 months as I wait for a full rebuild of its engine (long story), and I routinely bike through Sunnyvale/Santa Clara/San Jose to visit family and friends. My observations from the ground are that Sunnyvale is basically little India with numerous multi-generational living arrangements all over. It makes parking suck ass there, for one. But I think that it does explain the prices somewhat. Combined incomes and having grandparents sell off whatever house they may have had to put a down payment on a house to live in with their kids and grandkids will support ridiculous price points. I am not trash-talking it, so please don't take it that way. I find it irritating as a would-be, native house buyer, but it is what it is. Compared to where they are coming from, putting 6-10 people into a 1200SF house is probably fucking paradise. Us spoiled Americans are just now starting to find out how good we had it now that it is irreversibly slipping away.

B.A.C.A.H. says

think about it. If you are working as part of an outsourcing enterprise, what value proposition do you offer to your employer except for being here?

And being here means being here.

That's why I have not accepted their full time offer. Just contracting for the moment. True insecurity is always better than false security.

B.A.C.A.H. says

folks like bimmerman, thomaswong and me have deep roots here. We make our compromises to live here and we don't complain about it. It is what it is.
Do you have deep roots here?
Just asking.

they don't care a rat's ass about your kids, unless it's how to keep their kids away from your kids.

You worry about theirs

I don't have deep roots in the bay area. Sure, you may tell me to leave this area and ask me to stop complaining. I am not complaining; instead, thinking about things at macro level.

Nor am I worried about their kids. I am just interested in things at macro level, whatever we, as individuals, say and feel.

Yeah, I never did get all the compliments about the bay area weather. Socal-absolutely. Lovely weather, as long as you live within the coastal influence. When I first moved there from the bay area, I was so happy , it felt like I could feel the sun in my bones. It is really strange how weather can affect your emotions and moods.

Bay area weather , when compared to the midwest or the humid south is certainly better-but I never did take a liking to it. I don't think I can stand Portland or Seattle-been there several times . I am an outdoorsy person-hike and camp and stuff and that weather will just kill me. I like rain, when it pours heavily and then is done with. But the constant drizzle-which is bay area weather-just makes me feel dull and lethargic.

Lots of wilderness in WA and OR, but not enjoyable in that weather-at least for me. Though I hear Bend, OR is much better-but good luck finding a job!!

raindoctor says

Sure, you may tell me to leave this area

Nope. It's your decision.

If my partner and I didn't have deep roots here, we'da been gone a long time ago. Just like almost all of my pals from local K-12 are.

But everyone's an individual, with his/her own reasons for sticking around here. Like dunross and even Patrick himself, voting with their midwestern rooted feet for the high cost of living here.

Once I bank enough cash I plan to leave here. Too expensive and I much prefer socal or south florida. Lower cost and more white bread not Chindia which as a white guy annoys me.

SJ says

Once I bank enough cash I plan to leave here. Too expensive and I much prefer socal or south florida. Lower cost and more white bread not Chindia which as a white guy annoys me.

White bread and socal and south florida??? Alabama and Mississipi maybe.

Latino and white mostly in south florida. I have no problems with latinos since I am fluent in Spanish and they are far easier to deal with than most racist Chindians.

SJ says

Latino and white mostly in south florida. I have no problems with latinos since I am fluent in Spanish and they are far easier to deal with than most racist Chindians.

Silly SJ, don't you know that only white people can be racist? Did you not get the Political Correctness instruction manual when you moved to the Bay Area?

bmwman91 says

SJ says

Latino and white mostly in south florida. I have no problems with latinos since I am fluent in Spanish and they are far easier to deal with than most racist Chindians.

Silly SJ, don't you know that only white people can be racist? Did you not get the Political Correctness instruction manual when you moved to the Bay Area?

No need to get your knickers in a twist and spew your own projections. I am simply pointing out that if you want a white only place-socal is not your best bet. Having lived in so fl-it has its own culture -certainly not your white bread expectations.

B.A.C.A.H. says

It's called outsourcing. Outsourcing IT to India, payroll to The Philippines, finance/accounting to Malaysia, call centers to wherever, etc.

I've worked with some of these Indian IT contractors. Talk about clueless. But they always try to play nice with you to cover up their lack of technical knowledge.

One simple reason. All housing in this country right now is subsidized housing.

SJ says

I have no problems with latinos since I am fluent in Spanish and they are far easier to deal with than most racist....

You don't have to go all the way to Southern Florida for that. You only have to leave The Fortress.

well that is a huge 100 mile radius where the tech jobs are right now

SJ, I commute into a tech job every work day, but I don't live in The Fortress. It ain't no 100-mile commute. My office mates almost all live in The Fortress, except for a few local kids like me, who also live in East San Jose. With the Latinos and the Vietnamese and the white trash. I only interact with those people that you find objectionable, at the office.

lostand confused says

No need to get your knickers in a twist and spew your own projections. I am simply pointing out that if you want a white only place-socal is not your best bet. Having lived in so fl-it has its own culture -certainly not your white bread expectations.

Sorry, it was sarcasm.

I've only ever been to Orlando, so it isn't like I have toured FL extensively...but I would certainly not classify FL as white-bread territory. Generally speaking, white-bread country requires snow, at the least. The South is another thing all of its own and I don't really consider it white-bread country, at least not an the same way.

B.A.C.A.H. says

With the Latinos and the Vietnamese and the white trash.

Although those areas DO have their own sets of problems, I do find that those places are actually worthy of the label, "community". People seem to know each other a little more and be friendlier, as opposed to the sterile upper-class areas where everyone secretly loathes their neighbors for buying a new M-Class before they did.

Honestly, I don't know why anyone in the Bay Area doesn't follow Adobe out to their new giant expansion campus in Utah County, Utah. Yes, it snows there. Yes, you have to put up with Mormons (like me).

The mountains look just like southern California (except, no palm trees). There are killer deals on houses ($300k buys you a small mansion). Houses in Utah come with full basements, at basically no extra charge, which means you get DOUBLE the house you would in CA or OR. Salt Lake City is only 40 minutes away (with traffic), and quite a bit of stuff to do. The schools aren't dysfunctional. You aren't going to get shot. You car (most likely) won't disappear from your driveway.

Yeah, it's no SFO. But honestly, if you're trying to raise kids, why does anyone even BOTHER with the Bay Area anymore?

And if you hate snow, I hear Austin, Texas is a bubbling tech hub, too.

(Don't get me wrong ... I love SoCal and the Bay. But the state gov't, unemployment, and crumbling infrastructure are so infuriating... The days I'm working in SLC really are much less stressful than the ones down here)

Oh come on Sanders, look at these deals!!
http://www.redfin.com/CA/Santa-Clara/3010-Ryan-Ave-95051/home/1167211

Look at picture 10 BTW. That's my fave!!

I had to drive to Sunnyvale this weekend to pick up something. Needless to say, for some reason I've never really liked much of the Silicon Valley environs. Not sure why but it feels almost entirely suburban yet its got this weird "Exclusivity" factor going on. It appears to be just about any other boring suburban landscape but with a semi-luxury veneer slapped on top.

The Bay Area is strange in that even though its all one area, people from SF- or "The city" imagine that they're the center of the universe but then again so too do the Silicon Valley folks, and so on. When I tell people I live in the east bay they look at me as if I'm from another planet.

rfsanders says

Houses in Utah come with full basements, at basically no extra charge, which means you get DOUBLE the house you would in CA or OR. Salt Lake City is only 40 minutes away (with traffic), and quite a bit of stuff to do.

Before we bought here we at least looked at Salt Lake City. The weather is apparently pretty awful with very cold, snowy winters and extremely hot summers. The air quality is also a big issue there because of the geography of the city as it sits in a large depression- sort of like LA.

What $825k buys you where I live:

Amenities: 6 br, 4 full baths, 3 partial baths, 7000 sq ft, 2 acres, no bullets (except from deer hunters with poor marksmanship)

Cons: no sunshine for 6 months, high property taxes

http://www.trulia.com/property/3054824598-2465-Morningstar-Trl-Corning-NY-14830

I lived at 165 S Bernardo for a couple of years. Left that place last may. I have seen few changes: apartments are renovated with double pane windows, and increase in rents to force out low income tenants. 3 years ago, next to the apt complex I lived, new townhouses were built (cortez x s bernado). So, eventually, gentrification will take place by tearing down many small apartment complexes and building townhouses in their stead.

freak80 says

What $825k buys you where I live:

You should see what around 200k buys where I used to live: Rural NC. You can seriously get a very nice place with acres of land for under 200k, easy.

edvard2 says

You should see what around 200k buys where I used to live: Rural NC. You can seriously get a very nice place with acres of land for under 200k, easy.

I believe it!

Darrell In Phoenix says

Why buy it used when you can build it for half that amount?

Can you?

rfsanders says

Honestly, I don't know why anyone in the Bay Area doesn't follow Adobe out to their new giant expansion campus in Utah County, Utah.

My team is based Utah (Adobe) and I work in SF. My allergies were horrible when I travelled there. Air quality was worse than usual due to forest fires in the state. The people are nice and my co-workers are great, but there isn't nearly as much to do as there is in the bay area. Also we have family and friends in the bay area. There is actually quite a bit of tech in that area, but it's definitely not for everyone.

Darrell In Phoenix says

What $825k buys you where I live:

What does it cost to heat/cool that mansion?

Darrell, I agree with most of what you post and i love when you bust Roberto Trump's balls, but I think $825K is doable for that house and if I lived in the area I'd be all over it. Plus, I could shoot my rifles off the balcony. And the whole backyard offers plenty of acreage for yams.

freak80 says

What $825k buys you where I live:

freak,
what's the freakin' utility bills like on a place like that in a place like that?

fil says

What does it cost to heat/cool that mansion?

B.A.C.A.H. says

freak,
what's the freakin' utility bills like on a place like that in a place like that?

I'm sure it's not cheap, especially in winter! The property taxes would also eat you alive.

But I'm assuming anyone with that kind of money isn't too worried about it. :o

Seattle area: Absolutely beautiful and outstanding recreation ...about 60 days a year. Houses are big, and that's because you'll spend most of your time indoors.

People are borne there, schooled there, work there, and die there...in the same communities..., and seem frightening of anything beyond the borders.

It's a very challenging place for Californians to move, and that's why they typically last 2-3 years before running for the golden hills.

Alltone says

Seattle area: Absolutely beautiful and outstanding recreation ...about 60 days a year. Houses are big, and that's because you'll spend most of your time indoors.

People are borne there, schooled there, work there, and die there...in the same communities..., and seem frightening of anything beyond the borders.

It's a very challenging place for Californians to move, and that's why they typically last 2-3 years before running for the golden hills.

LOL!! So true. I lasted a few months-couldn't deal with the weather. I am a sun perosn-just need the sun. But beautiful place though. Do they still have free coffee at the rest stops??

Alltone says

It's a very challenging place for Californians to move, and that's why they typically last 2-3 years before running for the golden hills.

I moved there (first the east side, then Seattle proper in Belltown) from Colorado and lasted 18 months. I'd have left sooner except that would mean reimbursing my employer for $60K in relocation costs.

Silicon Valley is still fine after four years.

If there was a better software startup scene (very few combine interesting technical problems, a viable business plan, and are at a good spot in their life cycle at a given time and a small percentage of a much larger number really helps) in Boulder, CO I wouldn't have left after 15 years and would have racked up 21 years in one place. 300+ days of sunshine a year, not much precipitation (alpine desert), better fine dining in one place, lower cost of living.

Facebooksux says

Oh come on Sanders, look at these deals!!

http://www.redfin.com/CA/Santa-Clara/3010-Ryan-Ave-95051/home/1167211

ROFL!!! Most my life CA prices were, at worst, double the prices in Salt Lake City. These days it's 3-4 times. $700k for a house like Marty McFly's in Back to the Future? That would be $190k in SLC. And it would have a full basement.

Even out here in the Inland Empire, I bet that house would go for $300k max.

edvard2 says

Before we bought here we at least looked at Salt Lake City. The weather is apparently pretty awful with very cold, snowy winters and extremely hot summers. The air quality is also a big issue there because of the geography of the city as it sits in a large depression- sort of like LA.

It's not horribly bad. Salt Lake City summers aren't as hot as Phoenix or Las Vegas. Maybe one week in the 100s, two months in the 90s. It's similar to Riverside, CA from June through September. Winters get cold, similar to Denver, Colorado, but much milder than Buffalo, Minneapolis, Chicago, etc. There's very little humidity, which makes the cold more bearable.

The smog gets pretty bad. It's very similar to the San Gabriel Valley. Our inversions happen in the winter, opposed to the summer. Still, the air is generally much cleaner in SLC than it is in the Inland Empire.

fil says

My team is based Utah (Adobe) and I work in SF. My allergies were horrible when I travelled there. Air quality was worse than usual due to forest fires in the state. The people are nice and my co-workers are great, but there isn't nearly as much to do as there is in the bay area. Also we have family and friends in the bay area. There is actually quite a bit of tech in that area, but it's definitely not for everyone.

True. More to do in CA. That's why I bounce between SoCal and SLC. Much easier to meet a girl for a date at Santa Monica Place and walk the pier and 3rd Street than it is to meet a girl in SLC and ... well ... um ... eat at Crown Burger and walk The Gateway?

Still, SLC ain't Boise or Cheyenne. I'd say it's similar to Kansas City or Denver in terms of being able to "find" things to do, if you look hard enough. But not nearly as easy as Los Angeles or San Francisco where cool stuff to do is on every corner.

If you like to ski or do "outdoors" stuff, there is PLENTY to do ... and it's all 30 minutes away.

(Anyway, I'm hijacking the thread now ... in short, there are alternatives to the Bay)