patrick.net

Maybe I should buy a place in Sacramento and commute 2-3x a week to work!

SJ says

Maybe I should buy a place in Sacramento and commute 2-3x a week to work!

I bought myself a double wide mobile home in Sunnyvale since that sucked much less in terms of what I got, cash reserve, cash flow, and risk versus buying a house, buying a condo, and renting something.

No common walls with neighbors, 1200 square feet, 3 bedrooms, 2 full bathrooms, central air conditioning, double paned windows, a nice 16x24' deck out back and smaller deck on one side. My wife's gardens are substantial - there's the palm tree collection, cactus collection, tasty sandwich and salsa vegetables like tomatillos and jalapenos, mutant vines and ivy geranium pots each producing a 3x3' pile of plant, plus the usual smaller containers.

Total cost of ownership is under $1500 a month (the 2 bedroom apartments at the same major intersection rent for $2100 - > $3000 / month depending on age) with slot rent, a $70K (total, not annual payments) mortgage to preserve cash, and insurance for replacement value including earthquake and flood coverage.

The 1950s houses about the same size on the street behind me were mostly $500K when I bought over a year ago; some have since sold for under $400K. Newer town houses at the same major intersection are running $600K+.

It's super peaceful.

It's also a comfortable bicycle commute for everywhere from Menlo Park to San Jose which covers the majority of geek software jobs in Northern California.

drew, if you had high school kids, which school would they go do?

B.A.C.A.H. says

drew, if you had high school kids, which school would they go do?

Fremont High School

Ours finished their undergraduate degrees before we moved in so I couldn't comment on how good/bad/indifferent that is.

Hmm,

$1500 per month for 1200 sqft 3/2 and access to Fremont. I know immigrants who are in hock way above their eyeballs to buy their kids access to Fremont HS.

But there might be some stigma about being trailer trash.

These are arguably the shittiest two cities in the Bay Area.

Hear me out. I'm not talking about straight-up ghetto. We know where those are. But these two are nothing but residential wastelands with nothing to offer in terms of community, individuality or uniqueness and full of the ugliest and most overpriced houses you can find.

Facebooksux says

these two are nothing but residential wastelands with nothing to offer in terms of community, individuality or uniqueness and full of the ugliest and most overpriced houses you can find.

Matters for childless DINK hipsters.
Doesn't matter for immigrant parents who covet public K-12 API.

SJ says

Maybe I should buy a place in Sacramento and commute 2-3x a week to work!

My boss says NO for telecommuting. That kind of sucks. Employers should allow telecommuting--this will fix the housing mess.

raindoctor says

Employers should allow telecommuting--this will fix the housing mess

They are.

It's called outsourcing. Outsourcing IT to India, payroll to The Philippines, finance/accounting to Malaysia, call centers to wherever, etc.

Hmm I would look into mobile home but the problem is that once the park owner wants to see, you have to lose the home and move. This is happening right now in the Palo Alto area.

SJ says

the problem is that once the park owner wants to see, you have to lose the home and move

can people rent a trailer home?

B.A.C.A.H. says

It's called outsourcing. Outsourcing IT to India, payroll to The Philippines, finance/accounting to Malaysia, call centers to wherever, etc.

1. I am aware of it. In fact, the group I am part of has 8 people working from India. The funny thing is: the so-called job creators in India charge $35 per hour to the company I work for. The folks in India makes at most $8 per hour. This is another paradox: American companies create billionaires in India by making their workers poor.

2. What will happen to the kids of chindians in the bay area and elsewhere, when 99 percent of middle class jobs (that chindians do here) are outsourced to India?

SJ says

even in the ghetto areas around S Bernardo Avenue and Mathilda the homes are selling for 800k plus!

How sad and ignorant for the people in the region. All of it. What kind of moron goes into that kind of debt nearly a million dollars! (does anyone really understand how much money that still is? I don't mean fantasy shows or rich lists I mean how much fucking money ONE MILLION DOLLARS STILL IS?) and all that to live in a ghetto. I have seen it in Los Angeles. It is a sign of how utterly fucked up people are to even consider such a scenario. Keep them on social media and pills wow you can get them to buy (mean go into slavery) for anything.

raindoctor,

think about it. If you are working as part of an outsourcing enterprise, what value proposition do you offer to your employer except for being here?

And being here means being here.

Hard to be here in mind and spirit even when your body is here, if your kids and your spouse and your problems are in Sac., and you are spending 4-6 hrs per day on the road.

This is true while my Indian managers get a free pass to work remote they insist that I work onsite most days.

Facebooksux says

These are arguably the shittiest two cities in the Bay Area.

Hear me out. I'm not talking about straight-up ghetto. We know where those are. But these two are nothing but residential wastelands with nothing to offer in terms of community, individuality or uniqueness and full of the ugliest and most overpriced houses you can find.

And for all that they expect people to fork out nearly 1M a pop? THAT is hilarious. Clearly none of you remember what 1M bought you in real estate in 1975. (The idea of outragious prices this "only/or be priced out/ or for only show a dump worth 25K for $1.5M mentality better end or the state of this country is seriously honestly doomed).

SJ says

This is true while my Indian managers get a free pass to work remote they insist that I work onsite most days.

Yep. That's a different way of saying, the same thing as, ..
B.A.C.A.H. says

If you are working as part of an outsourcing enterprise, what value proposition do you offer to your employer except for being here?

And being here means being here.

Raindoctor,
folks like bimmerman, thomaswong and me have deep roots here. We make our compromises to live here and we don't complain about it. It is what it is.
Do you have deep roots here?
Just asking.

raindoctor says

What will happen to the kids of chindians in the bay area and elsewhere, when 99 percent of middle class jobs (that chindians do here) are outsourced to India?

they don't care a rat's ass about your kids, unless it's how to keep their kids away from your kids.

You worry about theirs?

SJ says

the problem is that once the park owner wants to see, you have to lose the home and move. This is happening right now in the Palo Alto area.

It's not hopeless:

http://rocusa.org/about-us/

SJ says

Hmm I would look into mobile home but the problem is that once the park owner wants to see, you have to lose the home and move. This is happening right now in the Palo Alto area.

It is a gamble just like betting that house prices only go up, your apartment rent won't go up faster than your salary, or that you won't end up with east-coast sized tax bills that'd total $18,000 a year on a $600K house where the probabilities vary.

The specifics make probabilities and costs more complicated.

1. Sunnyvale must approve the re-zoning. With city council considering mobile home parks an important part of Sunnyvale's affordable housing stock this seems somewhat unlikely.

2. Sunnyvale Municipal Code 19.72.060(b)(B)(2) entitles mobile home owners who don't elect to relocate to 85% of the fair market value. With no appreciation that'd be a $14K loss in my case which is much less than I'd have spent on alternate housing that's comparable in any meaningful way.

3. The weasel words in the law allow the park owner to limit their damages to relocation costs if they can find a park which will accept a home within 20 miles. Plaza del Rey is the second largest mobile home park in California, with over 800 homes. That seems unlikely.

4. Assuming that works out, there are a couple of possibilities. I could actually relocate and sell. I could take the relocation allowance spelled out in 19.72.060(b)(1)(A). While just $1300 + $12650, it's indexed to inflation starting in 1980 which is $39,000 in 2012 dollars. Assuming 3% inflation and that happening in 2019 or later it'd cover the balance on my mortgage so I'd have come out far ahead. It could theoretically happen next year which is one of the reasons I took out a $70K non-recourse loan instead of paying all cash. I could accept a FICO score below 800 and walk away with an extra $40K in cash tax-free (note "non-recourse") and arguably be far ahead apart from the inconvenience.

5. SMC 19.72.070 allows an exemption where the property is economically not viable as a mobile home park and would remain non-viable if a sale happened with the relocation benefits paid; or the park goes bankrupt and a court finds that is the case. I find that unlikely given total rents of $8M a year on a property which is being taxed on its 1975 value + the lesser of inflation and 2% per year. If it did happen I'd be out my $23K down payment and would come out ahead after a few years compared to other housing options if I walked on my non-recourse loan and paid taxes on the remaining balance.

6. There are piles of vacant office buildings and even some empty land with negative cash flow nearby that I'd expect to be snapped up long before a property with this profitability.

7. The same family has owned the park since 1971 and could be expected to continue.

The arithmetic would be different for nice new mobile homes with construction better than the site built homes in the neighborhood (2x6 stud walls, ceilings beyond 8', etc.) but higher cost of ownership. (I'd have bought a house instead and updated)

It'd be different if the park was apartment complex sized (and priced) like those which have closed recently - it's much easier to get buyers for a seven figure property than nine.

It'd be different if it had been sold before which changed its tax basis and profitability (not since 1971).

It might be different if there was less vacant land and commercial real-estate in the area.

drew_eckhardt says

Sunnyvale must approve the re-zoning. With city council considering mobile home parks an important part of Sunnyvale's affordable housing stock this seems somewhat unlikely.

Drew, I suggest you do some volunteering at Fremont H.S. Go to the library and look at the photos of students in some old Fremont yearbooks. The trend is as obvious as those faces.

Look at the kids and the parents who drop off and pick up.

These are wealthy immigrants whose "investments" (either from "back home" money or else from hocking the tech job salary for loans) in your neighborhood are "blighted" by the presence of a trailer park. And they don't want their kids going to school with what they view as trailer trash.

Over time these folks become citizens and voters. You don't think so? Look how Cupertino has changed. This process will accelerate as things unravel in Communist China.

The school district will covet new revenue from reassessment after a trailer park is liquidated and redeveloped for expensive housing. They will share their aims about this with those parents, "it's your kids' education, and it's a way to maintain the quality without raising your taxes". Heck, if I were a competent government planner or school district finance person, I'd be shopping your park to developers with or without the knowledge of the park's owners. Get some momentum going, get out in front of it, influence the outcome.

Your association oughta be looking at the rocusa plan right now, have it ready and loaded for bear as a backup plan.

I am a renter in Campbell paying $1350 which I am sure will be raised soon enough. I am not making enough on my current job to stick around here too much longer. I am thinking about moving to Seattle because of a better job market and the cooler weather compared to places like AZ and Texas. I know this blog might be about the Bay Area but does anyone know much about the Seattle job and housing markets?

@SleeplessforSeattle,

Amazon I think is HQ in Seattle and they have jobs in tech. Same for Microsoft in Redmond. Might be go places to apply if Seattle is where you want to live.
Boeing also used to have a large presence as well. I like Seattle and Portland but it is too damp and cold and rainy for my taste. I may just bank $ and retire early in few years or work remote in sales engineering where I can live anyplace in USA and buy place in South Florida.

http://terracesonthird.com/Features_List.html

ONLY 4 million each?

I'm gonna get a 3.5% loan and rent them bothg out for $25,000/month.

I should be rich before I know it, right Roberto?

I travel to Seattle once a week for work, and have been for the last 9 months or so. It is really nice up there. As long as you are not super attached to sunshine, it is fine. If you love the outdoors, it is definitely the place for you. Yeah, you will do most of your hiking in rain gear and maybe heavier jackets, at least if you like being out year-round, but it is just different than down in the Bay Area.

There is a fair amount of resentment from the existing locals that were around before the area blew up into a tech hub, and rightfully so in some ways. It was a very blue collar area (still is if you drive for 30 minutes), and all the "tech doofuses" moved in, blew up the cost of living and brought a mix of lefty-progressivism and Chindian grab-everything-you-can culture that wasn't there previously. The area is getting more expensive, for the same reasons that the Silicon Valley is expensive, so I think that the value proposition is good for now, but getting to be less so.

I have considered moving up there for the lower overall cost of living (employees at the campus up there are paid less for the same position, but housing is still cheaper relative to wages there). It is hard though since 80% of my family, immediate and extended, lives in the Bay Area, and I am an avid outdoorsman/climber so the fact that we have no weather here is a real plus. There is actually more/cooler stuff up in Seattle as far as the outdoors goes, but it would be more work to do it year-round, and I really like my Vitamin-D lol.

I have been to enough major metros around the globe, and a good dozen other states in the US to visit friends and relatives. Honestly, the Bay Area is completely overrated, at least if you take the cost of living into account. It is a giant, dull, grey splatter of concrete and endless dumpy suburbs. People come here because there are high paying jobs, not really accounting for the fact that their higher wages are instantly absorbed in the cost of living and raising a family here. Immigrants love it because it has a lot of immigrants already. I don't blame them for not wanting to move to white-bread states where they get stares at the gas station. On top of that, I think that it has hit a sort of "critical mass" in terms of popularity and cost. "The Bay Area MUST be good because it is so expensive and everyone wants to live there! So I want to live there too!" Never mind any actual analysis of the fundamentals.

People claim to love the weather here. Well, I call BS. Most people, as far as I can tell, only experience the weather when they are walking to and from their cars at the office. The rest of the time they are staring at a computer screen or their TV. As a person that spends 6-10 hours a week outside fucking around for fun, it really rustles my jimmies to have so many people drive the cost of living up for "the weather" when they have no clue what they are talking about. Sorry about the arrogance on this one, I know I am exaggerating a little. Talking shit is fun sometimes!

I have been without a car for the last 6 months as I wait for a full rebuild of its engine (long story), and I routinely bike through Sunnyvale/Santa Clara/San Jose to visit family and friends. My observations from the ground are that Sunnyvale is basically little India with numerous multi-generational living arrangements all over. It makes parking suck ass there, for one. But I think that it does explain the prices somewhat. Combined incomes and having grandparents sell off whatever house they may have had to put a down payment on a house to live in with their kids and grandkids will support ridiculous price points. I am not trash-talking it, so please don't take it that way. I find it irritating as a would-be, native house buyer, but it is what it is. Compared to where they are coming from, putting 6-10 people into a 1200SF house is probably fucking paradise. Us spoiled Americans are just now starting to find out how good we had it now that it is irreversibly slipping away.

B.A.C.A.H. says

think about it. If you are working as part of an outsourcing enterprise, what value proposition do you offer to your employer except for being here?

And being here means being here.

That's why I have not accepted their full time offer. Just contracting for the moment. True insecurity is always better than false security.

B.A.C.A.H. says

folks like bimmerman, thomaswong and me have deep roots here. We make our compromises to live here and we don't complain about it. It is what it is.
Do you have deep roots here?
Just asking.

they don't care a rat's ass about your kids, unless it's how to keep their kids away from your kids.

You worry about theirs

I don't have deep roots in the bay area. Sure, you may tell me to leave this area and ask me to stop complaining. I am not complaining; instead, thinking about things at macro level.

Nor am I worried about their kids. I am just interested in things at macro level, whatever we, as individuals, say and feel.

Yeah, I never did get all the compliments about the bay area weather. Socal-absolutely. Lovely weather, as long as you live within the coastal influence. When I first moved there from the bay area, I was so happy , it felt like I could feel the sun in my bones. It is really strange how weather can affect your emotions and moods.

Bay area weather , when compared to the midwest or the humid south is certainly better-but I never did take a liking to it. I don't think I can stand Portland or Seattle-been there several times . I am an outdoorsy person-hike and camp and stuff and that weather will just kill me. I like rain, when it pours heavily and then is done with. But the constant drizzle-which is bay area weather-just makes me feel dull and lethargic.

Lots of wilderness in WA and OR, but not enjoyable in that weather-at least for me. Though I hear Bend, OR is much better-but good luck finding a job!!

raindoctor says

Sure, you may tell me to leave this area

Nope. It's your decision.

If my partner and I didn't have deep roots here, we'da been gone a long time ago. Just like almost all of my pals from local K-12 are.

But everyone's an individual, with his/her own reasons for sticking around here. Like dunross and even Patrick himself, voting with their midwestern rooted feet for the high cost of living here.

Once I bank enough cash I plan to leave here. Too expensive and I much prefer socal or south florida. Lower cost and more white bread not Chindia which as a white guy annoys me.

SJ says

Once I bank enough cash I plan to leave here. Too expensive and I much prefer socal or south florida. Lower cost and more white bread not Chindia which as a white guy annoys me.

White bread and socal and south florida??? Alabama and Mississipi maybe.

Latino and white mostly in south florida. I have no problems with latinos since I am fluent in Spanish and they are far easier to deal with than most racist Chindians.

SJ says

Latino and white mostly in south florida. I have no problems with latinos since I am fluent in Spanish and they are far easier to deal with than most racist Chindians.

Silly SJ, don't you know that only white people can be racist? Did you not get the Political Correctness instruction manual when you moved to the Bay Area?

bmwman91 says

SJ says

Latino and white mostly in south florida. I have no problems with latinos since I am fluent in Spanish and they are far easier to deal with than most racist Chindians.

Silly SJ, don't you know that only white people can be racist? Did you not get the Political Correctness instruction manual when you moved to the Bay Area?

No need to get your knickers in a twist and spew your own projections. I am simply pointing out that if you want a white only place-socal is not your best bet. Having lived in so fl-it has its own culture -certainly not your white bread expectations.

B.A.C.A.H. says

It's called outsourcing. Outsourcing IT to India, payroll to The Philippines, finance/accounting to Malaysia, call centers to wherever, etc.

I've worked with some of these Indian IT contractors. Talk about clueless. But they always try to play nice with you to cover up their lack of technical knowledge.

One simple reason. All housing in this country right now is subsidized housing.

SJ says

I have no problems with latinos since I am fluent in Spanish and they are far easier to deal with than most racist....

You don't have to go all the way to Southern Florida for that. You only have to leave The Fortress.

well that is a huge 100 mile radius where the tech jobs are right now

SJ, I commute into a tech job every work day, but I don't live in The Fortress. It ain't no 100-mile commute. My office mates almost all live in The Fortress, except for a few local kids like me, who also live in East San Jose. With the Latinos and the Vietnamese and the white trash. I only interact with those people that you find objectionable, at the office.