patrick.net

kochevnik says

Dear Bob :

I'm sure you are completely right about everything.

I'm sure that getting shot 9 times and surviving won't affect my future life expectancy, nor will being born a crack addicted preemie.

I'm also sure that Karl Denninger's literally 5000 articles full of facts, statiistics and links are all completely wrong about everything, especially the hundred or so where he dissects the health care system in great detail.

You win Bob - great job.

C Ya.

You are certainly free to respond to anything you think is wrong with my argument. I would be interested in seeing the math of how deaths in 20% of 1.48% of births or the difference of 1.2 murders per 100k effects the average life expectancy. Since you have obviously researched this more carefully and fully than I have it should not be hard to come up with some numbers. The way most people, including me, do the math it's statistically irrelevant. Feel free to prove us all wrong.

You are also free to post a link to the relevant Karl D's articles. I would actually like to read some. Are we talking the same Karl D? One of the tea party founders, market-ticker blog, etc., etc.. I've read some of his blogs on the financial crises, it's pretty good off the cuff stuff but far from being an analysis full of facts and statistics. I've never seen him blog on health care and couldn't find anything he had written on the subject. Post away.

Stagolee says

Diet is mostly responsible for bad health.

What do you eat that prevents cancer?

C Boy says

Stagolee says

Diet is mostly responsible for bad health.

What do you eat that prevents cancer?

Nothing prevents anything. It only lowers or raises the probability. Ironically things that can help with one kind of cancer can sometimes increase the probability of another. Everything has good and bad effects. All you can do is eat reasonably healthy, don't smoke, drink very little, stay in shape, and pray the odds don't go against you. DIet is only a part of the equation.

Isnt Wall Street somehow in the middle of this as well. Seems to me that most hospitals are not that profitable and they too are debt servants to bond holders and commission takers who underwrite their expansion plans. In turn health care costs are increasing and fewer people going to doctors.

monkframe says

Our grandparents lived far more active lives than we do. The percentage of the workforce involved in physically-active work was far higher than it is today. That has a huge impact on one's fitness

Although that is certainly true they did not actually even say the word exercise or fitness until when? Labor saving devices eliminated the need for labor. Who honestly washes clothes by hand today?monkframe says

In skimming all the above comments, and excuse me if I missed it, there was no reference to the gross inefficiencies in our health care system. We pay far more per capita than all other developed countries. Huge salaries for health care executives, overpriced drugs for which the government is barred from negotiating price, high-tech procedures that benefit very few
people, duplication of paperwork, etc., etc., etc

The government cannot demand that any business raise or lower their pay (outside of say minimum wage). If a drug is overpriced it can be the market that determines the price. If a drug stands out often times competitors will come in..from viagra came levitra and cealis (bad spelling). Companies will not make drugs unless they have the ability to patent. Once patents run out then generics start being made which cost far less. If you eliminate the patent process then it would reduce anything to generic and therefore less incentive to create more drugs. It's hard to budget r&d because you cannot plan for a discovery.monkframe says

A single-payer, or Medicare- for- all system would eliminate a lot of the noise, and reduce administrative costs to a level more likr the Social Security system, which works very well.

Where are those fans of efficiency in business? They oughta be screaming for this.

But there is nothing within the Constitution that would allow for that outside of making a amendment.

If health care is considered a "right" how can someone have the "right" to someone elses labor? Do you have the right to a fair trial? Yup..do you have a right of freedom of speech? Yup...Right to police service or fire...nope.

Government services are not rights. What if all the doctors left the country what would be the response? Draft doctors? We're not a command based economy.

There are limits to how many patients a doctor can see in a given day. To suggest that each patient should have equal time does not make sense because not all aliments are the same, not all questions are the same, not all people are the same.

In Mass we are starting to do group health care appointments. The doctors examine half a dozen or so at a time.

www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/11/30/the_doctor_will_see_all_of_you_now/?page=full

www.lizwalker.tv/my_story/better_living/index.html

How efficient is it to suggest that everyone should have coverage on something but yet the records detailing who has what should be secret? Group appointments might be the only long term solution to shortages of doctors or longer waiting times but I highly doubt that many would want this.

mdovell says

How efficient is it to suggest that everyone should have coverage on something but yet the records detailing who has what should be secret? Group appointments might be the only long term solution to shortages of doctors or longer waiting times but I highly doubt that many would want this.

Did you read the article or just the headline? The article was actually pretty complementary about this and it seems most of the patients actually liked it. Those that didn't had the option of going back to individual appointments.

There is NO shortage of doctors. The US has about as many doctors per capita as the rest of the first world. The problem is poor distribution. Since we are not a command based economy doctors obviously have the right to pursue whatever specialty they choose wherever the choose. The shortages are obviously going be taken care of by the free market. Or maybe not.

I saw the "article" since it is one of the local tv shows in the Boston area.

Are you aware that this nullifies HIPPA?

The idea of a shortage or surplus isn't the right argument anyway. If you lower the amount of pay or make working conditions worse you are going to have fewer people entering any job.

It can be argued that there is more money to be made in specialization rather than general practice but the issue with that is costs get higher for patients when it is specialization. The same goes with other industries. In education teaching special ed pays more. In animal care pet care pays much more than farm animals.

mdovell says

Are you aware that this nullifies HIPPA?

This doesn't nullify HIPPA minimum necessary standard at all.

The minimum necessary standard does not apply when the physician releases information: (a) directly to the patient, (b) pursuant to a patient's authorization, or (c) for disclosures that are required by law or are necessary to comply with the Privacy Rules.

Part b is obviously in effect if the patient is in the room and has agreed to discuss the information with other people present.

"Although that is certainly true they did not actually even say the word exercise or fitness until when?"
What does this mean?

"The government cannot demand that any business raise or lower their pay (outside of say minimum wage)."

The government can provide services for its citizens. That is a main function, as in Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.
The administrative cost of Social Security, for example, is small, and very efficient. The profit motive motive is missing, as it should be in a public benefit.

There is nothing "competitive" about our health care system. It's about gouging the public to the max while terrifying them with death if they do not pay. In many people's cases, such as my own, it's true; without health care coverage I face a potential early death.

Ten years ago, my monthly health care premiums were $250. Now, they are $804, and I'm barely able to cover that. Many people are worse off than I, they go to the emergency room I suppose, or just die, who knows?

My health care plan rejected my application to go onto a high deductible plan, saying that if I did switch (which they wouldn't allow) they might boot me off entirely on Dec. 31, 2013, at which point I'd need to get a "government-approved" plan.
That's because industry lobbyists wrote the health care bill.

Medicare for all is the solution, get rid of all the bloodsuckers.

monkframe says

Ten years ago, my monthly health care premiums were $250. Now, they are $804, and I'm barely able to cover that. Many people are worse off than I, they go to the emergency room I suppose, or just die, who knows?

If you can't pay you die.

Thats capitalism. It was that way in 1867 when Karl Marx wrote Das Kapital, but was slightly derailed by WWII, and is now back on track!

The group appointment thing works for medical nutritionists and a few other specialties but I doubt people are honest with their docs when sitting in a group of people.

Fluoridated drinking water damages health substantially in the US. Fluoride is more toxic than arsenic and slightly less toxic than lead. (Distillation is the most cost-effective way to remove the fluoride)

Aspartame in soda beverages, when consumed, turns into toxic wood alcohol in the bloodstream.

The average American diet is comprised mostly of ultra-processed foods with less than 1/10 of their original nutritive value.

Add some cancer-causing Wi-Fi near the home, and over time you end up with something closely resembling population control.

It's a eugenicist's wet dream out there.

C Boy says

What do you eat that prevents cancer?

I read this book last year that presents peer-reviewed, fact based information about links between animal-potein-based diets and cancer. Basically, the author describes how a few decades of scientific method suggest a link between the protein in cow's milk and cancer in lab rats.

http://www.amazon.com/China-Study-Comprehensive-Nutrition-Implications/dp/1932100385

zzyzzx says

Dan8267 says

What's Killing America?

- High fructose corn syrup

- Pollution

- Inadequate access to preventative health care

Pollution is much worse in other countries.

If the homeowner isn't insulted by your offer...you didn't bid low enough!!!

And what is the life expectancy in those countries?

Nothing, people have been asking this question for decades and it's only getting better. Everything is cheaper. 40mpg cars for under 13k that will last over 200k miles on original engine, $5 cell phones, 600 plasma TVs that used to cost 60,000. Unemployment and real estate prices that are still cheaper than all other non third world countries as far as I know.

The problem is when you people look at the rich, and compare yourself to them, then feel you can't be happy with a shack and food on the table like your parents had it. There I'm at three posts. I can make my own thread now :)

snyderkv says

Nothing, people have been asking this question for decades and it's only getting better. Everything is cheaper. 40mpg cars for under 13k that will last over 200k miles on original engine, $5 cell phones, 600 plasma TVs that used to cost 60,000. Unemployment and real estate prices that are still cheaper than all other non third world countries as far as I know.

The problem is when you people look at the rich, and compare yourself to them, then feel you can't be happy with a shack and food on the table like your parents had it. There I'm at three posts. I can make my own thread now :)

I agree.

Malthusian Fabian socialism organized and backed by central bankers seeks to control population numbers by introducing population growth control mechanisms into society.

They have done this through untested GMO foods, which are now showing that they can destroy the ability to reproduce after ingestion over three generations in hamsters. Immune systems are also compromised.

Malthusian socialism has also resulted in fluoridation of 60% of America's our tap water. Fluoride is more toxic than arsenic and about as toxic as lead. This does directly destroy thinking capacity and lowers IQ.

We also have aspartame, MSG, fructose corn syrup, an international fast food industry, Wi-Fi which and cell phone radiation which causes cancer, and on and on and on.

So, we get to enjoy high tech and better medicine, while at the same time we are slowly culled by central bankers, in order to keep our numbers in line with their projections.

Sick fucks, indeed.

GameOver says

How sad that your measure of success seems to be based on the affordability of gimmicks, gadgets and shiney glass beads.

Um yes actually I do measure standard of living by cheap goods like real estate, food and gadgets. What is your definition?

GameOver says

I look at the dumb, compare myself to them, and wind-up feeling mighty good about myself. I thank you for that.

At least I'm smart enough to read forum rules and not call others dumb just because you disagree with their opinions. Unless I just called you dumb now for not being smart enough to read forum rules. Doh!

Fine, but my response was directed towards peoples definition of standard of living. So you opened a new line of discussion that has no bearing on my former statements.

Yes, the problem will be solved by having the government take it over and regulate it and pass some laws. Maybe jail some people.

Sure it will. Sure.

snyderkv says

Nothing, people have been asking this question for decades and it's only getting better. Everything is cheaper. 40mpg cars for under 13k that will last over 200k miles on original engine, $5 cell phones, 600 plasma TVs that used to cost 60,000. Unemployment and real estate prices that are still cheaper than all other non third world countries as far as I know.

Real estate prices is not cheaper at all. And housing prices in US dropping for the 6th year in a row. See

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/story/2011-11-29/case-shiller-sept/51460490/1
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/09/home-prices-first-quarter-2011_n_859299.html

And thats because people in the US just don't have the money to buy homes and/or keep their existing homes, given their current prices. With their rapidly shrinking income, they can't qualify for home loans with big lies about their so-called "stated income" and/or maintain current mortgage payments. And as time goes by, unemployment benefits will run out, state and federal government budget deficits with explode, creating a vicious cycle of more layoffs (from public sector) followed by less consumer spending and the story of economic misery will go on. The only way out is down. And I won't even discuss about the rapidly increasing competition in high-tech fields, specially from countries like India and China, which will rapidly reduce high-paying tech jobs in US.

Healthcare prices are an extreme ripoff. It's the doctors them selves that are gaming the system not the insurance companies. We need to reform the industry. Heavy politics gets played here and we end up with obamacare which will cost us more.
We have specialists in this industry making 1000s of dollars per hour? and healthy you...your paying for it.

As for as living 6 years longer by average like in japan...I want to see the study as how many of them are in assisted care for their last 10 years.

I would love to see a break down of actual medical expenses across age groups and geographic locations.

My hunch is that age group wise most of the expenses go to the 55+ groups. While your first instinct would be to think that this normal and expected I strongly disagree. Expensive long term medical issues usually start much earlier. Early health monitoring could be a boon for life expectancy.

In the end it's mostly the young who can't afford (or are not willing to) to have health care and are not covered by Medicaid/Medicare. Fixing this problem of course is impossible in the current political climate. So health care costs will continue to rise until the cost bubble bursts.

I find it fascinating that something like dental health care still does increase in cost. Why does it not go down with more efficient technology and improved process? How much more value can you add to dental health care? We are not adding teeth to humans nor do we make false teeth out of diamonds.

The same thought should be applied to the medical field as a whole. I think this is where thinking about medical care in market terms is questionable. It has never worked for some reason. Anywhere.

ttt says

My hunch is that age group wise most of the expenses go to the 55+ groups

I bet -9 months to 6 months has more expenses.

Crack, Bacon, Bread, Cigs, Beer, Stress, Candy, Sodium, Cancer, Coronary Plaque, Oh you name it.

The whole reason we industrialized is so we could have a lot of wealth without having to work very hard (physically) to get it.

Now that's killing us. WTF?

Maybe we should just be like the Amish.

[...]

curious2 says

ttt says

Early health monitoring could be a boon for life expectancy.

So far, it's been the opposite. Services marketed as "preventive care" include a lot of diagnostic radiation that increases cancer risks. Getting yourself irradiated is a common way to spend more to die sooner.

Life expectancy has been decreasing? When did that start? I didn't get the memo.

[...]

curious2 says

Radiation increases your risk of cancer and is thus generally bad for your health, except in limited circumstances where it may be the lesser of two evils.

I've never had radiation except as a specific test to diagnose a specific problem.If you have a broken bone or a possible tumor then getting an xray or mri isn't "preventative care" in my mind. You need to know what's going on.

So what is this "preventative care" that randomly exposes you to radiation with no specific goal. I've never heard of "preventative care" radiation and neither does my wife who is a doctor. The only thing I've ever read about people paying for a full body MRI, but that's just silly and pretty rare. What percentage of the population gets radiation without looking for some actual problem? Do you have any research articles or is this anecdotal?

[...]

curious2 says

Meanwhile, please desist from sarcastically arguing with straw men (statements that you originate but then attribute to others, e.g. decreasing life expectancy

It's not a strawman when it's true. A different poster wrote this:

ttt says

Early health monitoring could be a boon for life expectancy.

To which you replied:

curious2 says

So far, it's been the opposite

You certainly appear to be saying life expectancy is decreasing. (decrease is usually considered the opposite of increase)

And you are greatly overestimating the radiation risks from normal medical diagnostic procedures. They are barely above the noise of background radiation. You might as well stop eating bananas if you're that worried about the radiation...

[...]

curious--

You seem to be changing your point with each post. Which is OK. But don't pretend that you've been saying the same thing each time.

Maybe you're just not very good at saying what you mean.

[...]

curious2 says

In light of the instruction not to insult another user (which you seem to have ignored), I will refrain from commenting on your ability to read.

Did I miss something? When did he insult you?

[...]