patrick.net

Thanks Seaside. Living in the northeast, heat is a big kick in the pants. Plus taxes. Here's the projections I've been using.

300K home, 60K down, 240K loan. No PMI or HOA.

Mortgage - 1188/mo, @4.3% 30yrs. traditional
Taxes - 12500/yr including school tax. = 1042/mo
Insurance - 125/mo
Maintenance and Upkeep - 250/mo, just saying
Heat - 500/mo (VERY house dependent, highest in winter low in summer)
Electric - Approx. 350/mo.
Water - 75/mo
Sewer - 50/mo
Landscaping - 0 to over 200/mo, depending on who's elbow grease. Let's say 100/mo
Etc, et - For Trash and gas etc, 100/mo.
(Trash is included in taxes, but surely there are other incidentals so 100/month sounds good)

Total is $3780/month.
Haven't looked at tax deductions, but lets say all things being equal total cost after tax savings is $3500 a month.

HH income needs to be better than average to meet that monthly nut.

ECBB, There must be a typo somewhere because the numbers does not match with your total. Maybe typo w/ landscaping? Or, it must be a heck of large yard. Gotta have a riding lawn mower, and few hours in saturday afternoon. Your heating and electric estimate seems to be higher than what I thought it would be. $1042/mo tax for 300K home... this part made me, wow...NJ tax sucks. :)

With my house (~1600sqft 2/2 with a pool and a 2 car garage and a pool on a 8Ksqft lot):
Mortgage, Taxes & Insurance ~$2600
Maintenance and Upkeep $150 avg
Heat & Electric $200 (when it gets colder, gas goes up, electric down)
Water $40
Sewer/Trash $20
Landscaping $50
Total: $3060 With principal & tax savings it's probably closer to $2600

My last apartment (700sqft 1 bedroom):
Rent $1750
Electric $150
Water/Trash $45
Extra parking $100
Total: $2045

So for $500/mo more I get a dedicated office, double the living space, my own pool and a place to work on my hobbies. I also get the upkeep and maintinance to deal with but don't mind getting my hands dirty.

A similar house on my street was renting for $2200 (+utils).

The great thing about having my house is I recently put together my "home theater" (110" projection, nice 7.1 surround sound) and had a movie night with a bunch of friends and did not have to worry that I was bothering my neighbours.

With how bad the housing market is, if I can sell for at least what I owe + realwhore fees in 10-12yrs i'll be happy (because that will mean I am leaving California).

TType85 says

Heat & Electric $200 (when it gets colder, gas goes up, electric down)

This reminds me of that funny winter day back in winter 2003 when I flew to LA. I saw girls wearing thick coat saying it's freezing. It was 55F in the evening and I was like, WTH? do they call this freezing? I took my jumper off and still felt like I can take my shirt off too. The difference was, I was digging my way out in snowly western PA half days ago.

Bit more energy cost if you're living in the east. A friend of mine living in his house in MD once complained about $600 elec bill. How come? It was $350 last month! Well... dude, here's how come. Have your pajama on and turn your thermostat down to 70F instead of 82F. :)

underwaterman says

AZSALUKI says

Everything is relative. My 5 year ARM went to 2.75% 8 months ago. my payment is now $720/month (principle and interest...and a decent part of that is principle). Add taxes, insurance, HOA dues, and maintenance and i'm still WELL below $1,000/month.

These deals sound good on the surface. What happens if you play with negative appreciation accounting for the coming shadow inventory that will eventually have to come to pass (see links like this:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/10/16/127042/millions-of-homes-lurk-on-bank.html)? How will it feel when the price drops 30-40k more and if the property taxes rise to make up govt shortfalls? What will happen in a few years when the interest rate increases above the unrealistically low of 2.75%? They can't stay low forever. And when the rates go up and your facing negative equity and want to refinance but can't come up with the 20% equity downpayment, your stuck.

They can't stay that low forever, but they will for a while. Even when they do raise, I have a 2% cap, annually on my note, so once the US Treasury rate finally climbs (that's what i'm tied to), then i'll be capped at 2% per year. It will take a while before my mortgage is unreasonable. In the meantime, I am still paying down the principle. And i realize anything can happen, but i do plan on staying here (i'm self employed). The value of my home has gone from $280K at the peak to $130K. This is about what they sold for when they were built in '92. I know they can (and will) continue to drop, but by another $40K? I doubt it. Even still, I'll be fine. Worst case scenario, I can access hard money at 9%. 9% on $120-130K (or whatever i would owe by the time i'd really be screwed) still isn't bad. Negative appreciation simply doesn't affect me. An increase in interest rate will, but i have a ways to go before i'm really screwed. And i don't know about your market, but our property taxes have fallen with values. They are based on the value of the home. And as you can see from my earlier post, they are very low in Phoenix.
The original post claims that renting is significantly cheaper. My point is that I'm 6 years into "ownership" and that is simply not the case.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

Taxes - 12500/yr including school tax. = 1042/mo
Heat - 500/mo (VERY house dependent, highest in winter low in summer)
Electric - Approx. 350/mo.
Water - 75/mo
Sewer - 50/mo
Landscaping - 0 to over 200/mo, depending on who's elbow grease. Let's say 1000/mo
Etc, et - For Trash and gas etc, 100/mo.
(Trash is included in taxes, but surely there are other incidentals so 100/month sounds good)

Your expenses are a tad high in my opinion. My total utility bills average $300 a month. It's true I have Geothermal which is very efficient, but I have a Huge house. I've heard of horror stories where people have propane heat and have $600 or even $800 bills during the coldest winter months, but these are generally price spikes during the coldest months, they do not have these kind of bills in the late spring/summer/early fall.

Electric bills are also too high. My bills average about $150 a month in October when I'm not using any heat. If your heating with something other than electric, your bills shouldn't be any higher.

My water bills are around $25 a month, for 3 to 4 thousand gallons of use for two people. If you have a large family or water the hell out of your lawn in the summer months i wouldn't think your water bills would be much more than $50 a month.

Don't have sewer anymore but when I did have it, it was something like $300 a year.

For landscaping I think you mean $1,000 a year. I guess if I counted my Riding mower as part of my landscaping expenses, that number would be about right.

Trash is NOT included with my taxes. I pay $95 a quarter for trash pickup.

My taxes currently run about 8k a year, but some of towns in North New Jersey, 12k wouldn't be too far off.

My house (~3500sqft 5/2.5, 3 car garage on a 113Ksqft lot)

ECBB:

Damn, those taxes are huge! Or shall I say humongous?

Mortgage - 680/mo, @4.875% 30yrs. traditional
Taxes - 960/yr including school tax. = 80/mo
Insurance - 25/mo
Maintenance and Upkeep - 150/mo, just saying
All Electric - Approx. 100/mo.
Water - 30/mo
Sewer - none - all septic (included in upkeep)
Landscaping - 25/mo, if that
Trash and 20/mo.
HOA - 300/yr (fire house/truck) = 25

If I figured correctly, I'm paying about $1,150 for a 1700 sq ft 3/2 on an acre. Of course, there are currently no jobs around here and I'm not sure how many other places have "nuclear contamination" listed second on their wikipedia page.

Other than the no jobs thing, and the rampant cancer, it's a good place to live. And cheap.

Yes, those costs are high for most people, particularly the utilities. Here's mine.
Principal & Interest N/A (last payment next month!)
Property tax $350/mo
Insurance $38/mo
Maintenance $350/mo*
Water/Sewer $35/mo
Electric/Gas $200/mo for both
Trash $0 (city service included in property tax)
HOA $0

*Maintenance is a stab-in the dark estimate. Maintenanec costs are highly dependent on the age of home. Ours is 1974. Maintenance cost was modest for many years. Then when everything started wearing out we had to pay for medical bills before we could afford all the repairs that were needed. So a lot built up. Here’s what I can remember: $35K-$40K in the last 7 years to replace windows, appliances, HVAC, carpet, remove trees, repair patio concrete, stripped old bathroom to build accessible bathroom. We spent at least another $5K that I can’t quite account for that I know included some new landscaping and exterior painting. We need exterior brick repair. We will need a roof in about 7 years. Could use a new kitchen, but it’s not going to happen. There seems to be no end. Hubby is disabled, so currently adult son does our yard work for free. When that stops it will cost us over $200/month to mow, remove leaves, plow snow. This does not include fertilizing, bush trimming, and flower planting.
This is why I want to be a renter! Hubby says he is never moving, so I have to wait my turn.

I based my maint on getting the house painted & roofed & septic pumped, once in ten years. I'll take the next round out of the next ten years, I guess.

There is stuff that I could do, want to do, but unless HGTV shows up and does it for free, ain't gonna happen. I keep waiting for them to show up with cameras & a shiny truck - only I haven't ever contacted them so they'd have to guess who I am, where I live and intuitively know what I need.

Yes, I need another glass of wine.

edvard2 says

Then again I know plenty of renters who go out and buy the latest gadget or some new car every few years and the same goes for homeowners. Its all about financial discipline.

there you go...it all depends. People have different priorities.
I know a guy who have two big houses in the fortress area, but yet have a disposable cell phone, and drives a 16 year honda accord.

on the other side, walk into any grocery market, you can see even the worst looking case low/poor class dumb/ess reading people magazine and holding a smartphone because it makes them look smarter ?

"When that stops it will cost us over $200/month to mow, remove leaves, plow snow. This does not include fertilizing, bush trimming, and flower planting."

So don't landscape. So what if your front lawn looks like sh*t? Mine does. For goodness sake, I have tire tracks in my front lawn!

HousingWatcher says

"When that stops it will cost us over $200/month to mow, remove leaves, plow snow. This does not include fertilizing, bush trimming, and flower planting."
So don't landscape. So what if your front lawn looks like sh*t? Mine does. For goodness sake, I have tire tracks in my front lawn!

Umm. Are you a renter or owner? There are things renters don't know about home maintenance. I could let the lawn go to weeds, as long as we mowed the weeds. There are city ordinances against letting grass get too tall. Mowing the leaves on the ground would satisfy me. What's in the flower beds can biodegrade over time. The leaf removal that MUST be done as part of home maintenance is to clean the gutters. If the gutters get clogged, water will overflow the gutters and not drain away from foundation, which can then cause leaks. That is the purpose of gutters. I notice you didn't recommend we eliminate snow plowing. Thanks.
BTW, anyone who does his own maintenance should include as a cost, the equipment he has to purchase to do the jobs. Mower, garden tools, snowblower, leaf blower, assorted power tools and various size ladders, etc, etc.

My best friend.

tatupu70 says

Using the bubble as evidence is not useful, IMO. It was clearly irrational behavior, and as such, doesn't really show that people underestimate housing costs...

But that's the thing though. Everything to do with the bubble has an element of being rational. Cheap money means maybe you should consider loaning money. Buying expensive house with heads I win, tails you lose (especially if non-recourse) is rational. Values rising quickly and flipping is rational.

Believing that housing prices will keep rising 20%/year forever is irrational, but I doubt even that idiot David Lereah even believed that, even if he wrote a book saying so. Thinking your income would rise significantly so that certain recasts would become affordable was irrational, perhaps, but believing you could refi might not have been.

Anyway, the point is that you can't just paint everything to do with the bubble with an irrational brush post hoc. Much of what occurred was incredibly rational in context. You take your market as you see it.

corntrollio says

Cheap money means maybe you should consider loaning money

Yep---an increase in prices would be rational. A bubble is not.

corntrollio says

Buying expensive house with heads I win, tails you lose (especially if non-recourse) is rational

Not sure how it's "no lose". Banks lost huge. Homeowners who bought into the bubble lost big.

corntrollio says

Anyway, the point is that you can't just paint everything to do with the bubble with an irrational brush post hoc. Much of what occurred was incredibly rational in context. You take your market as you see it.

I would argue that bubbles are, by definition, irrational. Was paying $1000 for a tulip rational in context?

Payoff2011 says

Umm. Are you a renter or owner? There are things renters don't know about home maintenance. I could let the lawn go to weeds, as long as we mowed the weeds. There are city ordinances against letting grass get too tall. Mowing the leaves on the ground would satisfy me. What's in the flower beds can biodegrade over time. The leaf removal that MUST be done as part of home maintenance is to clean the gutters. If the gutters get clogged, water will overflow the gutters and not drain away from foundation, which can then cause leaks. That is the purpose of gutters. I notice you didn't recommend we eliminate snow plowing. Thanks.
BTW, anyone who does his own maintenance should include as a cost, the equipment he has to purchase to do the jobs. Mower, garden tools, snowblower, leaf blower, assorted power tools and various size ladders, etc, etc.

I'm an owner. And the only tools I own to do exterior maintenace are a shovel and an electric lawnmower. That is it. I don't do any gardening. I stopped raking leaves years ago. I also don't have to do any gutter maintenace since I have enclosed gutters. At least that is what my roofer told me. My gutters are 3 stories up so I have never seen or touched them.

Seaside - typo and math errors have been fixed.
Underwaterman - taxes are correct. $4k to the town and $8.5k to the school system.

Techgromit - Eletc. may be a bit high - depends on how much you run air conditioning / central air in the summer.

Heat depends on house. older homes can run over $1000/month in the cold winter months - hardly anything in the summer. $500/month is on the high side of average.

My focus isn't so much rent vs. buy - its more that people tend to underestimate the "hidden" costs of ownership.

tatupu70 says

Not sure how it's "no lose". Banks lost huge. Homeowners who bought into the bubble lost big.

No, absolutely not true for everyone. Some people bought a house with little down and cash-out refied it to death as asset prices kept going up. These people got a net positive, that in most cases they aren't paying back to the banksters.

tatupu70 says

I would argue that bubbles are, by definition, irrational. Was paying $1000 for a tulip rational in context?

Depends on when. A lot of the behavior was rational given market conditions and the type of knowledge the typical buyer had. It's rational to do certain things in the short-term and other things in the long-term. In the short-term, it made a hell of a lot of sense to flip houses. But just because your timing isn't perfect in an illiquid market doesn't make something irrational, but if you made bad assumptions, then sure, it could be irrational. It's hard to say everything that happened was irrational. It's not easy to say when something crosses from boom into bubble.

Anyway, not sure what this has to do with my original point which is that people often don't do this math and just focus on the payment.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

The difference is startling. Rent and utilities are about 25% of my monthly expenditures right now.

Factoring in for all of the additional costs of maintaining a home, hosing (and its peripherals) would take up just over 50%!

As I pointed out before, while you cost are higher then renting, your costs are pretty much fixed, or raising much slower than increasing rents. There is a break even point where rising rents are equal to owning, then it goes down from there.

not quite... taxes go up, electric bills go up, heating costs go up, heck everything but the P&I go up. The hope is they go up slower than rents, but each rental is different.

That said, it seems that I may have overestimated the additional utility cost associated with homehowernship.

* Crosses fingers *

So far so good.

ECBB, you got your real numbers now as you've purchased a house. How does it stack up against the old numbers?

To be specific, what I meant by saying old numbers is the numbers in posting #57 by ECBB.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

Factoring in for all of the additional costs of maintaining a home, hosing (and its peripherals) would take up just over 50%!

(Tsk) Yep, just like I thought: you shoulda rented from Jody...we could be eating chicken fried steaks and drinking Jack Roses as I type

JodyChunder says

drinking Jack Roses as I type

I have recently discovered Poire Williams Liqueur from France.
I think I'm already addicted, lol !

David9 says

I have recently discovered Poire Williams Liqueur from France.

I think I'm already addicted, lol !

Very interesting...I have discovered something new tonight!

JodyChunder says

Very interesting...I have discovered something new tonight!

You might very well like it yourself. Call the Bevmo first, not all carry it.

seaside says

ECBB, you got your real numbers now as you've purchased a house. How does it stack up against the old numbers?

Too soon to tell... I'll try and post later this spring once I have a few months worth of numbers. But so far, heat and electric are projecting lower.

David9 says

Poire Williams Liqueur from France

Be careful. Poire Williams is *not* a liqueur. Liqueurs are sugared at the time of bottling. Poire Wiliams is an eau-de-vie and as such is not sweetened, and is hardly sweet at all except in smell. It's all about the high alcohol content and the lush fragrance.

Philistine says

eau-de-vie

Ah...

"Eau de vie is a French expression meaning "water of life".