patrick.net

RayAmerica says

When the Soviet Union fell, Sec. of State James Baker, along with President George H. W. Bush, PROMISED Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO would not expand
by allowing other nations to join.

“I was in those meetings, and Gorbachev has [also] said there was no promise not to enlarge NATO,” Zoellick recalls. Soviet Foreign Minister, Eduard Shevardnadze, later president of Georgia, concurred, he says.

https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-was-no-promise-not-to-enlarge-nato/

Slavic Studies Panel Addresses “Who Promised What to Whom on NATO Expansion?”

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

RayAmerica says

If Russia wins

"If" - nice word.

As my late mother used to remind me, "If" in one hand and shit in the other, which one will you feel first ?

The EU outnumbers Russia 5 to 1. With the US added in, Russia is outnumbered 8 to 1

Historically speaking the weaker actor is rarely the aggressor.

I was giving one explanation for Putin's diastrous invasion.

People are all bothered by the USA finally getting something done about Russia; we have been paying to defend Europe from those bastards for decades, Putin finally invaded someone too close to Europe and they became alarmed enough to buy weapons for Ukraine.

In 1973 Yom Kippur War, Israel was invaded by several of its neighbors. The West supplied weapons for Israel to fight back, which it did successfully.

The Arabs took umbrage and we had a Arab Oil Embargo, which may be before your memory. This essentially fucked up the world economy for at least a decade.

This is the same shit all over again, and the invaded country will prevail again because the West has the better weapons technology and training.

clambo says

The USA didn't start the invasion; Putin did.

we pushed Russia into it by putting puppet government in Ukraine and starting war against Russia there, its been going on for 8 years. watch that documentary: Ukraine on Fire. youll see.

RWSGFY says

DhammaStep says

And all for what?

For the same thing American Revolutionary War was fought - not being subjects of a colonial power.

Okay. Just to be clear though: the loss of life, especially to preventable wars, should always be mourned. Even if you percieve them justified.

richwicks says

Congratulations at destroying the country for nothing.

If they had just maintained status quo, we would probably be much better but they had to go and fuck it up.

I'm not buying the story that anyone pushed Putin into anything.
Putin's lackey in Ukraine was evidently unable to hold onto his position.
I wonder why?
But, even if NATO "provoked" Putin, why did he have to act? Russia was never in danger from the West.
The West was cooperating on many levels with Russia, enriching them buying their oil and gas.
The West was sending technology to Russia to improve its industry.
The West was accepting lots of asshole Russians into various countries to live.
I get the feeling that many here have limited or no experience dealing with assholes; you cannot really reach an agreement with them.
Sooner or later, they need their asses kicked, and Putin is having his ass kicked.

clambo says

I'm not buying the story that anyone pushed Putin into anything.
Putin's lackey in Ukraine was evidently unable to hold onto his position.
I wonder why?
But, even if NATO "provoked" Putin, why did he have to act? Russia was never in danger from the West.
The West was cooperating on many levels with Russia, enriching them buying their oil and gas.
The West was sending technology to Russia to improve its industry.
The West was accepting lots of asshole Russians into various countries to live.
I get the feeling that many here have limited or no experience dealing with assholes; you cannot really reach an agreement with them.
Sooner or later, they need their asses kicked, and Putin is having his ass kicked.

I forget who posted the link, but I disagree that Russia was never in danger from the west. After the USSR fell, there was a time when the US could have done the right thing and raised Russia from the dust like it did for Japan and Germany after WWII. This time, however, the US was to go in like a flock of vultures.

Nuland and her ilk are almost to a man and woman descendants of refugees from Russian pogroms against Jews back in the late 19th and early 20th century. They were poisoned by the hatred of their refugee ancestors and want nothing more than to see Russia completely destroyed. This is pathological hatred - they cannot be turned away, and they will not stop until they are dead. Even then, they have probably poisoned their children to continue their crusade.

Until we acknowledge the motivations of Nuland and her fellow neocons, we can never untangle the clusterfuck that is US strategic policy. They will only accept victory, and the real existential danger they pose is that they are willing to accept a pyrrhic one.

Let's not forget America's favorite Neo-Con warmonger criminal Senator John McCain (former candidate for President) going to Ukraine in 2014 and promising, to large crowds,
that "America has your back," implying heavily that the coming Coup had America's backing.

No doubt about it; the CIA had their typical operatives spread into all the key areas of Ukraine to make sure everything went according to plan. When you think about it,
as they have done in dozens of cases, the CIA are 'election deniers,' having overthrown duly elected governments, only to be replaced by their selected puppets ... the
controllable types of the Joe Biden ilk.

Russia has HUNDREDS of years of experience in fighting wars. They are professionals at it. From the very start, in spite of the lying western media, Russia purposely conducted a very limited military operation in Ukraine, effectively neutralizing the Ukraine-Nazi element, while gaining control of key tactical regions in the East and the coastal areas of the Black Sea. When the Ukraines foolishly attacked the bridge connecting Russia to Crimea, and, when their pipelines were attacked, Russia took the gloves off and, in spite of media propaganda, it's been all downhill for Ukraine ever since. Suddenly, the West, which clearly overplayed their hand, is now hinting at negotiations as a means to end the war, something that they prevented Ukraine from doing at the beginning of the conflict.

History proves that the Russians are PATIENT tacticians. When Napoleon's Grande Armee invaded Russia in 1812, they made great gains as far as territory was concerned. The Russians kept falling back, drawing Napoleon deeper and deeper into Russia, while extending his supply lines. The Russians then circled back and cut of those supply lines, waited for the brutal Russian winter to set in, and let nature take its course. Napoleon fled back to France, leaving behind his decimated Grande Armee, which was now starving, freezing, diseased and defeated. To a very large extent, the Russians repeated this patient, masterful tactic on the invading German Army in 1941, obtaining the very same results.

richwicks says

Oh my god. The US overthrew Ukraine, this led to the civil war in Ukraine. The US armed "their side" and Russia armed "their side", and THAT'S how this started.

Go back about 20 years ago and Medvedev statements to Bush Jr administration diplomats about Russian's claims to not only Ukraine but also Soviet ex republics like Latvia.

It was just a matter of time as Putin was building power within the borders of Russia for the Russian invasion to occur. The problem is that he caused other countries like Finland to fear they are next on the list.

/

RayAmerica says

To a very large extent, the Russians repeated this patient, masterful tactic on the invading German Army in 1941, obtaining the very same results.

Ukraine is not fighting like Germany or Napoleon's France. Russia is the invader not Ukraine in this circumstance.

I think Ukraine is spread thin intentionally and we do not know how many foreign fighters are on Ukraine's side like Polish special forces and mercenaries.

I think Ukraine needs to attack Russia's infrastructure like electrical grid and energy supplies.
.

RayAmerica says

Russia has HUNDREDS of years of experience in fighting wars

And losing some of them as well, just like we do.

19 Wars Russia Has Lost, from Ivan the Terrible to Vladimir Putin

https://247wallst.com/special-report/2022/07/07/19-wars-russia-has-lost-from-ivan-the-terrible-to-vladimir-putin/2/

RayAmerica says

To a very large extent, the Russians repeated this patient, masterful tactic on the invading German Army in 1941, obtaining the very same results.

Nope. The winter did in Napolean, but not the Germans. What did in the Germans was that they invaded with 190 divisions, caught the Soviets unprepared, and pushed them back to Moscow and Stalingrad. But then the Russians stood ground, regrouped and counter attacked with 360 divisions, including 105,000 T-34 tanks, most of which were built in open air factories. Pushed the Germans all the way to Berlin over the next 3 years. No regard for casualties on the Soviet side - the Soviets lost 200,000 dead in the two-week battle for Berlin, but they still took the city.

So, I guess I'll never be able to figure out if Russia is winning or losing. Amiright?

HeadSet,

Prior to winter, the rain season turned the 'dirt roads' upon which the German army was advancing into mud. In effect, their advance came to a crawl. Then came winter.

The winter had a devastating effect on the German Army. They were ill-equipped, still clad in their summer clothing. Eventually, their machinery was unable to move due entirely to the unimaginable frigid temperatures. That wasn't the case for the Russians who were prepared to fight under these conditions. Russian planes still flew, and their tanks were able to move, while the Germans, for the most part, couldn't. Frostbite accounted for countless casualties for the Germans. Many German soldiers actually froze to death. In the midst of all of this, the Russians mounted a winter offensive which turned into a route for the retreating Germans.

Were the German's able to hang on and even eventually mount several offensive operations? Yes. But they never fully recovered from the devastating effects of that first winter in Russia.

GNL says

So, I guess I'll never be able to figure out if Russia is winning or losing. Amiright?

We'll see how things play out after Europe suffers through a harsh winter with limited fuel supplies.

It's 2022. Not the 1800's or 1940's. This isn't hard core Russians/Soviets from those times. They've been modernized mentally. Also cold weather is a nothing burger with modern gear. And their equipment is from that time and outdated. They cannot attack via sea without risking their entire navy. Both sides are drunks as well. It's December for fucks sake.

Russia is going to lose half its military hardware before this is all done. Maybe more even if they "win." Not that any of it was worth shit. Again, Russia has had plans for probably years for this and couldn't execute it. We will keep feeding weapons in and weaken Russia to nothing. They already look weak. And I don't care if Ukraine loses. The damage has been done to Russia showing the paper tiger it really is.

ad says

think Ukraine is spread thin intentionally and we do not know how many foreign fighters are on Ukraine's side like Polish special forces and mercenaries.

Two detachments of Chechens with blood feud against Russians
Transcaucasian unit
Russian legion, made up from Russian POWs who want to fight against Russia
Bashkir/Tatar unit
International legion, made up by crazies from all over world, incl Japanese, S. Koreans, Americans, etc
Not that many Poles but tens of thousands of Ukrainians trained in Poland

Explosions at a pair of air bases deep inside Russia killed at least three people and wounded six others on Monday, Russian authorities said, while Ukrainian officials hinted at a capability to strike deeper within Russian territory.

The attacks serve Kyiv’s aims of disrupting Russia’s supply lines that bring military hardware and soldiers to the war in Ukraine. They also serve a psychological purpose, demonstrating Russia’s vulnerability to attack as the assault on Ukraine wears on.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/explosions-hit-russian-air-bases-as-more-missiles-strike-ukrainian-infrastructure-11670237453?mod=mktw&mod=article_inline&adobe_mc=MCMID%3D33643146269311232381034897595525346801%7CMCORGID%3DCB68E4BA55144CAA0A4C98A5%2540AdobeOrg%7CTS%3D1670243909

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/russian-air-bases-hit-as-ukraine-hints-at-more-offense-11670242077

Tune in again tomorrow for more drama on the smash hit of 2022, "As The War Churns"

The biggest WINNER in the Ukraine/Russia 'war?'

The Armaments manufacturers, the Big Banksters, BlackRock, Fake Hero Zelensky, and the crooked politicians that are swimming in all of those $Billions that Dear Leader Biden has sent over by the boatload, much of it finding its way back here in the form of 'kick backs,' of course safely hidden in off-shore accounts.

RayAmerica says

The Armaments manufacturers, the Big Banksters and the crooked politicians that are swimming in all of those $Billions that Dear Leader Biden has sent over by the boatload, much of it finding its way back here in the form of 'kick backs,' of course safely hidden in off-shore accounts.

They must be delirious now and high on fumes from the stashed currencies after Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. This latest kerfuffle must be the desert portion huh ?

It modern military thinking any unit losing 30% of its personnel is considered "combat destroyed". As in "not able to fight anymore". Now, if AFU has indeed lost 50% of its personnel why the fuck are we seing Red Army advancing to the rear and losing 50% of the land they grabbed initially and not the other way around?

cisTits says

Eric Holder says

It modern military thinking any unit losing 30% of its personnel is considered "combat destroye

What 'modern military thinking'? A DoD PowerPoint slide deck?

It may be in the DoD PP slide deck but it is basically shared by many military minds all over the world. Just like other military truism like "3-1ration attackers to defenders" and "can't successfully attack a 40-mil country with 200K force from 9 directions, you stupid KGB fuck". Sometimes they don't work, but they do work most of the time.

clambo says

I guess he thinks Poland wants revenge more than it does a better standard of living, so he fears it will attack Russia someday?

If Poland wanted to invade Russia, I would think that by now the Polish army would have taken the Russian occupied part of East Prussia and kicked out the inhabitants, furthermore taken all of Belarus and be closing in on Moscow by now. Probably would be a clean sweep including St Petersburg and Moscow if Finland joined them.

cisTits says

"OK boys! We are already at 30% casualties. So according to future DoD bullshit, we can just stop fighting now!" - Genetal at the Battle of the Bulge

It's 2022. Soldiers can check their social media in battle if they want. My buddy did in Afghanistan. The world has changed. Russian soldiers can see what they're doing is bull shit. I don't care if we're fighting a proxy war or not. Russia is a limp dick. Not much else to it. They're fighting a war figuratively with catapults. Fine, launch rocks, lead or whatever all day into buildings no one is occupying.

We fucked up in Iraq and Afghanistan for sure. This is exponentially more retarded though from the Russian end. We probably have 5-10k hired mercenaries there. Russians are drunks. They're not winning. Winter is no longer an issue with modern gear. Again this isn't the 1940's. Russia bit off more than they could chew for essentially no reason. We could wipe them out with 100 traditional munitions/bombs overnight.

And no, I don't care for Ukrainians either. So no bias on my end. This conflict is just pure retardation at this point. No one should have a pony in this race to retardation. USA has the experience in Iraq and Afghanistan. Live you learn.

WookieMan says

Russia bit off more than they could chew for essentially no reason. We could wipe them out with 100 traditional munitions/bombs overnight

Russia just has to wait and fight a war of attrition while Europe starves not just for heat, but basic energy.

This is Vietnam 2.0

Quit listening to stupid US propaganda. We've got Baghdad Bob as the chief propagandist

This war will of course hurt Russia, but it will hurt Europe more and destroy Ukraine. Everybody in EU government knows the US started this stupid conflict.

Have you noticed that drone & missile attacks are now occurring INSIDE Russia?

This marks a very significant escalation of the conflict. No doubt, Ukraine, the pawn in the NATO/West chess game, will pay a heavy price in the interim.

Much more serious is this scenario; Russia has the world's largest cache of modern nuclear weapons. This war now appears to be spreading onto the mainland of
Russia. Russian leaders have repeatedly warned that the 'suppliers' of any weapon that is used on any attack upon Russian soil will be considered to be an enemy
combatant. Question: from what nation, or, nations, did Ukraine obtain these weapons that are being used to attack the mainland of Russia? How will Russia
retaliate against those that they now consider to be their direct enemy?

Long ago, this conflict morphed into something that is way beyond the scale of importance. Ukraine is an incredibly corrupt nation ... even the EU recognizes that to be true.
Whatever happens to the nation of Ukraine is of no significant national security interest to us.

The West & NATO have continued to provoke Russia. After the CIA/NATO coup that led to the downfall of the Russian-friendly Ukraine government in 2014, Russia has
sensed (rightfully so) that they are being surrounded, provoked, and intimidated by the West & NATO. For Russia, Ukraine was the line in the sand.

The very real threat of an all-out nuclear war is a distinct possibility, and, that threat continues to heighten with each passing day. Seriously, is Ukraine worth risking the
possibility of killing *5 BILLION people?

*Rutgers University conducted a study that concluded that up to 5 Billion people would die within two years of a nuclear war between the U. S. and Russia.

RayAmerica says

Have you noticed that drone & missile attacks are not occurring INSIDE Russia?

This marks a very significant escalation of the conflict. No doubt, Ukraine, the pawn in the NATO/West chess game, will pay a heavy price in the interim.

Much more serious is this scenario; Russia has the world's largest cache of modern nuclear weapons. This war now appears to be spreading onto the mainland of
Russia. Russian leaders have repeatedly warned that the 'suppliers' of any weapon that is used on any attack upon Russian soil will be considered to be an enemy
combatant. Question: from what nation, or, nations, did Ukraine obtain these weapons that are being used to attack the mainland of Russia? How will Russia
retaliate against those that they now consider to be their direct enemy?

Long ago, this conflict morphed into something that is way beyond the scale of importance. Ukraine is an incredibly corrupt nation ... even the EU recognizes that t...

Russia is all hat and no cattle. They have already failed multiple shittests. Remember "Armageddon is inevitable if a single shell lands in Crimea"? How about "Kherson oblast is Russia now and will be forever and if Russian soil is attacked it will be defended by all means available, including nukes, THIS IS NOT A BLUFF"? Yeah, me too.

PS. The wundervaffe that hit strategic bomber bases was provided by country named USSR - these are old Soviet recon drones Tu-141 refit to carry explosive charge. I guess Russia will have to nuke itself now.

Putin: Risk Of Nuclear War "Rising", Will Defend Russia "By All Available Means"

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/putin-risk-nuclear-war-rising-will-defend-russia-all-available-means

cisTits says

Euroweenies who will not send their little under-population-replacement darlings to die in Ukraine don't count in the numbers. Only those that have a realistic probability of being drafted, trained and deployed to actually fight, like Russian reservists, for example.

It's not the 1940's. Throw humans at this all you want. Russia is in the stone age militarily. This is fact. This whole deal should have been over by now. If you're so dominant Russia should have just rolled in with the tanks and taken over.

Maybe they're playing a long game, but any rational observer would say Russia is getting their asses handed to them. Frankly it's embarrassing for a land invasion of a neighbor. This isn't like Joe Dirt from America going to Afghanistan. The Russian troops have likely visited or been to parts of Ukraine they're attacking. And they still aren't winning. No Navy needed. Air superiority is null.

Face it, their brut force didn't work against Western weapons. Maybe long term Russia gets something out of this, but currently they're looking like the losers. What is the point of blowing up all the Ukrainian infrastructure and still seemingly losing the war? Even if you win, you destroyed everything and have a populous that is likely to have animosity towards you for generations.

We did it in the ME. That's why we'll have terrorism for generations. Russia is always going to have problems with its neighbors. This isn't a new situation. They're making it worse and look like shit on a global scale.

Do you support Ukraine? If YOU do, it's time for YOU to pony up! Zelensky wants YOU to donate to the cause. Remember, give until it hurts!

Zelensky Names Price for Ukraine’s Winter Survival: Seeks $840+ Million in Donations

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2022/12/13/zelensky-names-price-for-ukraines-winter-survival-seeks-840-million-in-donations/

cisTits says

The Russians have been doing thus shit for centuries.

And where has that gotten them? They have resources in the ground and that's it. Russia does and makes nothing. Make all the artillery you want. We're talking Ukraine, one of the most corrupt nations on the planet run by drunks. Just because Russia decides to kill off its young men every generation doesn't mean it's logical or winning at anything. They look like fucking idiots, no different than we did dicking around in the ME, but we lost a fraction of our troops compared to Russia over the centuries.

Every party involved in this dumb ass shit is a dumb ass. Europe, US, Russia, whoever. Europe and Russia is a shit hole of morons. We shouldn't be involved in anything over there beside exporting anything that is still American made. Let the dumb assess over there start a 3rd European war. Let them just kill each other.

RWSGFY says

Russia is all hat and no cattle. They have already failed multiple shittests. Remember "Armageddon is inevitable if a single shell lands in Crimea"? How about "Kherson oblast is Russia now and will be forever and if Russian soil is attacked it will be defended by all means available, including nukes, THIS IS NOT A BLUFF"? Yeah, me too.

PS. The wundervaffe that hit strategic bomber bases was provided by country named USSR - these are old Soviet recon drones Tu-141 refit to carry explosive charge. I guess Russia will have to nuke itself now.

Don't forget Ukraine will cease to exist in 3 days, then all will be over in a few months, etc. Before that it was Putler is so smart he will never attack Ukraine, he had no troops in Ukraine in 2014, etc.

No different from covid jabber aficionado prediction track record.