patrick.net

No way i'd consider doing that unless I had my condo paid off and the kids were older.

Peter P says

Or, it may just take a leap of faith.

Is life about stability? Or is it about growth?

Basically its about whether you want to end up old and eating cat food or end up being old and able to enjoy the last 20-30 years of your life as you want.

Peter P says

If you want to thrive, starting your own business is the only way.

Exactly what I was thinking.

I want to do something I really enjoy. My thoughts are that if I had 30-40 hours a week to work on my own business - it would be that much easier to double/triple the income earned off of my own business.

Have a buddy going through the same thing and is earning much more than working for the man.

Working for a corporation - you're just making someone else richer.

you should quit. at only 25 k a year you would also qualify for many free government benefits that would supplement your income. work is WAY overated in this country. personally, i don't know any working slobs anymore!

Peter P says

I am not sure gaps in the resume is as harmful as before.

My wife 'dropped out' of the corporate mill for about 3 years while she ran her own bookkeeping business. After the recession killed her business she had to rejoin the mortals, we found that many employers were interested in how many clients she had, the issues she'd run into, etc. Overall, it seemed like it was a plus that she had been out on her own for a while.

Last early August the company I was working for moved the guy I thought I was working for, to another department. Then placed a rude obnoxious Luddite as the head of all development. Who was from the school of 'Fear gets results'.
He fired me to make a point and scare the shit of those that were left, into "Respecting his Authorit-igh!".

After that, I decided I will never work for a company again. I made the leap of faith to develop some technology I had been working on. I tried to sell it to two major companies. While they were sticker shocked by it, they were intrigued and processed me as Vendor. Then had me to build them some projects, that they didn't have the internal resources for. Using the technology that they didn't buy, I was able to about 3 to 6 months of development in less than a month.

I've been busy non-stop since November, I haven't even had the time revisit my original project and develop pending specs I planned on.

It works for me and them, because they get about 6 months worth of programming for about three months worth of programming, but it only takes me one month. It's a deliverable based system and not on man hours. Or I would be getting the short end of the stick. Besides it's not like it's free code for me. I spent a few years after my regular job developing my virtualized enterprise stack.

joshuatrio says

Working for a corporation - you're just making someone else richer.

That's an interesting moto, though I'm fairly sure most millionaires are corporate rats working for large corporations. They just aren't the billionaires.

Watch the movie Cypher.....

edvard2 says

Peter P says

Or, it may just take a leap of faith.

Is life about stability? Or is it about growth?

Basically its about whether you want to end up old and eating cat food or end up being old and able to enjoy the last 20-30 years of your life as you want.

What kind of idiot would sacrifice all the good years of their life, when they are able to fully enjoy all that this life has to offer, for working all those years away on the hope that you will be able to enjoy your time as a senior citizen, laughing at those eating cat food. Fuck that shit, twice. Call me old school, but to me, retirement means death, and I fully intend to use up all the good years prior to the slow decline of seniority, doing everything but working some meaningless and unfulfilling job. I just turned 33 and I've already figured out how to thrive on a 28 hour work week, that leaves me from thurs 5pm -Monday @ noon to live and not worry about working. No amount of money or faux securitry (benefits lol) woulde get me to trade away my time

errc says

What kind of idiot would sacrifice all the good years of their life, when they are able to fully enjoy all that this life has to offer, for working all those years away on the hope that you will be able to enjoy your time as a senior citizen, laughing at those eating cat food. Fuck that shit, twice. Call me old school, but to me, retirement means death, and I fully intend to use up all the good years prior to the slow decline of seniority, doing everything but working some meaningless and unfulfilling job. I just turned 33 and I've already figured out how to thrive on a 28 hour work week, that leaves me from thurs 5pm -Monday @ noon to live and not worry about working. No amount of money or faux securitry (benefits lol) woulde get me to trade away my time

Pretty much sums it up.

CaptainShuddup says

After that, I decided I will never work for a company again. I made the leap of faith to develop some technology I had been working on.

Congratulations. I'm glad that it worked out for you. You are probably doing better for yourself than for the man... yes?

errc says

What kind of idiot would sacrifice all the good years of their life, when they are able to fully enjoy all that this life has to offer, for working all those years away on the hope that you will be able to enjoy your time as a senior citizen, laughing at those eating cat food. Fuck that shit, twice. Call me old school, but to me, retirement means death,

Too bad I'm already having the time of my life. At the rate that I am earning I can retire in less than 10 years too. But either way, some of you guys who have the attitude like the one mentioned in quotes above had better save your money because when I retire you ain't gettin' jack shit from me nor will I pay for your cat food bills either.

edvard2 says

Peter P says

Or, it may just take a leap of faith.

Is life about stability? Or is it about growth?

Basically its about whether you want to end up old and eating cat food or end up being old and able to enjoy the last 20-30 years of your life as you want.

How can you possibly plan so far ahead without making too many assumptions about the future?

One ought to follow his passion and grow his character. If you don't dread retirement when you're old you will have failed.

Heraclitusstudent says

joshuatrio says

Working for a corporation - you're just making someone else richer.

That's an interesting moto, though I'm fairly sure most millionaires are corporate rats working for large corporations. They just aren't the billionaires.

Rich millionaire is such an oxymoron.

Why do people do things they hate, day in and day out, just so that they can stop "one day?"

errc says

Call me old school, but to me, retirement means death

Most retired people I know find themselves busier in retirement than when they worked. Keeping busy is not a problem.
Peter P says

I am not sure gaps in the resume is as harmful as before.

It is.

I spoke with a couple of headhunters within the past few weeks. I was told in no uncertain terms that a gap is a black mark, even more so now because employers can afford to be very picky.

Cases in point: The wife of a buddy of mine was let go from a major telecom provider back in October. Bachelors in Communications and worked her way up to some sort of director level position. Because of her years of faithful service she was given a generous severance package. She immediately started looking for a new job, about 20 hrs a week.

She's still looking. She gets interviews but that's it, no offers.

Yesterday I had lunch with a couple of former co-workers of mine. Both have part time jobs. One is tech, the other is HR. HR confided her view that it its still a very tight job market.

The economy my be picking up but there is still a labor surplus.

edvard2 says

Lastly, I am not sure what you do for a living, but if its in tech, well tech moves so fast that a year spent away from it can mean a return to a job market where your skills are obsolete.

6+ months is considered obsolete.

Peter P says

How can you possibly plan so far ahead without making too many assumptions about the future?

One ought to follow his passion and grow his character. If you don't dread retirement when you're old you will have failed.

Because there are set assumptions that anyone who plans to retire someday to have. In order to live from age 60-100 you'll need at least 1 million dollars worth of retirement in order to survive off of 40k a year. In other words- 1 million bucks to live barely above working class. So figure 2 million bucks minimum.

Either way, this site and others sometimes shocks me in how little people seem to really care, know, or comprehend what retirement is all about as well as its importance. being old and poor is NOT a good thing.

ditto..

Strategist says

Having said that, I will still NEVER EVER work for a boss. :)

I'm freaked out by your avatar....
I swear to god i didn't take your potato chips!

turtledove says

it won't have the appearance of some kind of breakdown.

New Renter says

I spoke with a couple of headhunters within the past few weeks. I was told in no uncertain terms that a gap is a black mark, even more so now because employers can afford to be very picky.

Of course! Such gaps are preferably filled immediately with their help. ;-)

It's like asking an auto repair shop whether you should continue driving a lemon.

New Renter says

6+ months is considered obsolete.

A good company hires the person, not the skills. In the tech world, the "right" mixture of skills is never available, whereas the right person can pick up any skill in days.

edvard2 says

In order to live from age 60-100 you'll need at least 1 million dollars worth of retirement in order to survive off of 40k a year.

If you need to count you don't have enough to retire.

Peter P says

New Renter says

I spoke with a couple of headhunters within the past few weeks. I was told in no uncertain terms that a gap is a black mark, even more so now because employers can afford to be very picky.

Of course! Such gaps are preferably filled immediately with their help. ;-)

That's not what was meant.

Their paying clients are the companies who immediately toss any resume with a gap. The only help they will provide is how to creatively fill that gap.

I suspect most people being hired today are being very creative in this regard.

Peter P says

New Renter says

6+ months is considered obsolete.

A good company hires the person, not the skills. In the tech world, the "right" mixture of skills is never available, whereas the right person can pick up any skill in days.

That may have been true in years past but not now. As I said companies are swamped with applicants. They use the gap as a filter - only applicants without significant gaps will be called to see if they are "right".

errc says

Call me old school, but to me, retirement means death

New Renter said "Most retired people I know find themselves busier in retirement than when they wor Keeping busy is not a problem."

--------------------

I didn't say that keeping busy, is a problem. I can dream up infinite better things to do with my time, rather than trade it for dollars

What I meant, was that the word 'retire', by definition, meant to die. I wager to an edvard type, retirement means - 'work your entire life away, so that you'll have enough markers on past labor, to force others to take care of you while you grind out death, in a body that's past its expiration date.' And hey, the edvard type will have paid north of half a million $ to private "health" "insurers", so he will have the comfort of knowing that. And hopefully, easy access to lots of drugs.

It all sounds like death to me. If your trading all your quality years, for what someone else has told you, is the safe and surefire path to a senior citizen life, the next step above the catfood eaters. Well then, you're as good as dead already

edvard2 says

Either way, this site and others sometimes shocks me in how little people seem to really care, know, or comprehend what retirement is all about as well as its importance. being old and poor is NOT a good thing.

I'm not ignorant to retirement. I save 50% of my take home, a 401k account, precious metals, and a comfortable savings account. My vehicles are paid off and no loans of any sort. My plan is not to piss away all that I have in pursuit of a dream, but to take a chance, to do something I enjoy - that I am already making a few k per month with minimal effort.

The risk appears on the low side honestly. Figure if it fails, and I have to go back to the hamster wheel - even with a large paycut, I'm good.

New Renter says

edvard2 says

Lastly, I am not sure what you do for a living, but if its in tech, well tech moves so fast that a year spent away from it can mean a return to a job market where your skills are obsolete.

6+ months is considered obsolete.

Disagree. Although I'm not a programmer.

New Renter says

Their paying clients are the companies who immediately toss any resume with a gap. The only help they will provide is how to creatively fill that gap.

You don't want to work for those companies anyway...

The only useful quantitative measure on a resume is the number of pages. Anything more than two is highly suspicious. ANY kind of life accomplishments can be described in one page or less.

Qualitatively, how a person chooses to present himself/herself is more telling than what is being presented.

That said, the best hires tend to be referrals by other good hires.

Peter P says

If you need to count you don't have enough to retire.

Counting what you need is better than having no plan at all...errc says

What I meant, was that the word 'retire', by definition, meant to die. I wager to an edvard type, retirement means - 'work your entire life away, so that you'll have enough markers on past labor, to force others to take care of you while you grind out death, in a body that's past its expiration date.' And hey, the edvard type will have paid north of half a million $ to private "health" "insurers", so he will have the comfort of knowing that. And hopefully, easy access to lots of drugs.

It all sounds like death to me. If your trading all your quality years, for what someone else has told you, is the safe and surefire path to a senior citizen life, the next step above the catfood eaters. Well then, you're as good as dead already

You must have a very strange opinion of what retirement must be like. I volunteer on weekends at a local museum and 90% of the guys there are in their 70's and 80's. One of them just got back from a 1 month trip from France. Another took a trip to Rio about 6 months ago. The same guy who went to France built another house in Portland OR. One of the guys has a vintage VW bus and he and his Wife are taking off on a 10,000 mile round trip tour of the West. Both are around 80.

These guys have been retired for decades. Yet they are busier than me. They are more active than most people half their age. But you want to know why they can do and have been dong what they do for years and years? They were smart with their money. They saved. They retired by the time their were in their 60's. What's more most of them LOVED their jobs. Ironically the club I am in concerns preserving the industry they all retired from.

But everyone can do what they want to do. I meant what I said too: Those who do not save won't be getting one penny from me if they wind up totally broke and destitute when they get to be near or at retirement age. If some want to play, go for it. But don't expect any sympathy for those who were responsible and saved.

Call it Crazy says

Strategist says

Are you guys kidding? I have been my own boss for 25 years. You get no benefits....no paid vacation.....you pay double the payroll tax....no sick leave....and you don't work 9 -5 because you are on call 24/7.

The other side is always greener.

Having said that, I will still NEVER EVER work for a boss. :)

Ahhh, but remember, your wife gives you an allowance!!!

Oh God...how can I forget. Taco Bell for lunch again.
My dog eats better. :(

joshuatrio says

I'm not ignorant to retirement. I save 50% of my take home, a 401k account, precious metals, and a comfortable savings account. My vehicles are paid off and no loans of any sort. My plan is not to piss away all that I have in pursuit of a dream, but to take a chance, to do something I enjoy - that I am already making a few k per month with minimal effort.

The real risk is that you share this world with other retirements with little assets. I wonder what that political landscape will be when you hit 65.

IMO it is better to really live and thrive. Or fail. It does not matter.

Life is a tragedy. There is no way around it. The question is, are you enjoying the show?

errc says

I didn't say that keeping busy, is a problem. I can dream up infinite better things to do with my time, rather than trade it for dollars

Ditto.

errc says

If your trading all your quality years, for what someone else has told you, is the safe and surefire path to a senior citizen life, the next step above the catfood eaters. Well then, you're as good as dead already

Great point.

Another thing that concerns me about office life is that in most office environments, people look miserable, bored, tired. Common comments are "I have x years till retirement." It bothers me how many people count down that "retirement clock" - it's as if they have nothing worth living for.

joshuatrio says

New Renter says

edvard2 says

Lastly, I am not sure what you do for a living, but if its in tech, well tech moves so fast that a year spent away from it can mean a return to a job market where your skills are obsolete.

6+ months is considered obsolete.

Disagree. Although I'm not a programmer.

Neither am I but I am in tech.

YMMV of course

joshuatrio says

I save 50% of my take home, a 401k account, precious metals, and a comfortable savings account. My vehicles are paid off and no loans of any sort. My plan is not to piss away all that I have in pursuit of a dream, but to take a chance, to do something I enjoy - that I am already making a few k per month with minimal effort.

Its all up to you. We too saved a lot of our incomes. We rented with other housemates for a decade. Then we bought a house and still save a lot of our income. As others have said and as I discovered, when you're unemployed you would be amazed how much money you'll spend that you never thought of when employed. That's totally what I experienced. Prior to being laid off I never thought about gas, food, and basics like that. When you're laid off suddenly its like- holy shit! Gas is $4 a gallon! Keep in mind that I as mentioned- live very frugally. I was also on unemployment. I still wound up using up around $6,000 in savings for the 4 months I was out of work and all I did was stick around the house looking for another job.

I guess I'm being the super cautious one here. The experiences I've had gave me a different perspective about having a job period.

Peter P says

New Renter says

Their paying clients are the companies who immediately toss any resume with a gap. The only help they will provide is how to creatively fill that gap.

You don't want to work for those companies anyway...

Those companies are everywhere, or at least they share an HR doctrine.

joshuatrio says

It bothers me how many people count down that "retirement clock" - it's as if they have nothing worth living for.

The stockroom guy at my university had one of those in his office. If you stopped him in the hallway and asked he could tell you off the top of his head how long to the hour until his day would come.

The math behind software has not changed much for decades. I am sure computer scientists in the 70's would understand things like Ruby on Rails right away. They did not use them simply because of other technological constraints (like CPU/IO/network speed and disk space).

A genuine intellectual curiosity is infinitely more valuable than "being current."

There are just too many junk programmers out there. Hiring them is like asking a house-painter to do a mural.

New Renter says

Those companies are everywhere, or at least they share an HR doctrine.

Perhaps it is prudent not to work for a company large enough to have an HR department.

Peter P says

The math behind software has not changed much for decades. I am sure computer scientists in the 70's would understand things like Ruby on Rails right away. They did not use them simply because of other technological constraints (like CPU/IO/network speed and disk space).

A genuine intellectual curiosity is infinitely more valuable than "being current."

There are just too many junk programmers out there. Hiring them is like asking a house-painter to do a mural.

That's meaningless. Sure- anyone who is decent at code should "theoretically" understand programming language from a rudimentary level. But that's not what companies want. They don't want someone who is unfamiliar with the latest OS, standards, UI, and other intricacies of a given program and then give them time to "catch up". No. You should be expected to be totally able to walk in and start working immediately.

I'm not even a programmer. I'm a designer and the same is true with what I do. Sure- someone who learned Photoshop back in the 90's when it came out will know the basics of that program and what exists today will bear some similarities. But what is demanded of today's designers not only in knowing the latest versions of the slew of programs they need to use but the ever-changing design trends which are needed. 4 years ago Desktop was still king. Today you had better know how to design for responsive desktops and mobile. The change is rapid. If you leave for even a year you had better get your crap together and learn what you've missed because what I knew last year is now totally useless for today's requirements.

edvard2 says

But that's not what companies want. They don't want someone who is unfamiliar with the latest OS, standards, UI, and other intricacies of a given program and then give them time to "catch up".

That is not my experience in multiple companies.

I once even got a job offer to program in a language with which I had ZERO experience.

komputodo says

As far as personal "growth" goes, I don't even know what that word means. Just one of those mainstream filler words that's used when you don't know what to say.

There are many aspects of growth...

Here is my favorite...

I find out I know LESS every day.

edvard2 says

You should be expected to be totally able to walk in and start working immediately.

Again this is a reflection of the particulars of the specific labor market. If labor is tight employers will be lenient on the job requirements and allow the employee to catch up. If the market is swimming with applicants employers can be very choosy and select only employees who have a 110% fit to the job to be done.

edvard2 says

But everyone can do what they want to do. I meant what I said too: Those who do not save won't be getting one penny from me if they wind up totally broke and destitute when they get to be near or at retirement age. If some want to play, go for it. But don't expect any sympathy for those who were responsible and saved.

Of those people how many are living on pensions no longer available to current employees? How about the benefit of incredibly low housing purchase prices with 3 decades of dropping interest rates to follow? There is also the incredible stock market performance today's retirees had the benefit of.

komputodo says

They feel they need to trade their quality years for money because in the US, old people without money have no redeeming value.

So you should try to get rich while you are still young.

And no, if you have to fly commercial you are not rich.

You have a better chance making it doing what you love.