patrick.net

Another useless article from Salon

indigenous says

Another useless article from Salon

Not half as useless as your comment ... unless you care to elaborate?

Rew says

Not half as useless as your comment ... unless you care to elaborate?

They don't offer any real solutions just conjecture on how public sentiment is changing.

If we could just un-arm Charlton Heston the gun violence will go away in this country.

- There was nothing hypothetical talked about. No what ifs.
- There were no solutions presented, because that wasn't the point.
- The point was to highlight where we are at, and that actually, a cultural shift may have started to happen.

The debate isn't going to move things anywhere. CiC, Cap, Indigenous : we could go round and round. We won't change each others minds.

The point is that the general public are now so tuned into this issue, their behavior and observations are changing. A cultural shift is starting to happen. You can check general opinion polls from 2013 and this year for the best measurable proof. Or you can take the fact that the media is continuing to hold this in the spotlight. Take even how much this issue comes up on pnet as proof of it not 'being a wedge issue', but being in peoples minds.

And this seems very true that the more people die by shootings in the US, the less this issue will. It's taken root. That's the first step toward change and it isn't going to be legislation initially that makes the change happen.

It's all about what personal action and beliefs are first.

When the hell was there a shooting at Reynolds High. Christ, my kid used to play in the park down the street years ago. Things just keep getting nuttier and nuttier.

Call it Crazy says

Yep, it will take force... It only depends how much the law abiding gun owners will put up with before they decide to "push back"...

Weren't a lot of these shooters law abiding gun owners right up to the point they started killing people?

Call it Crazy says

Go do some research on Adam Lanza..

The following is a complete accounting of all the firearms, magazines, and ammunition that was available to Adam Lanza on December 14, 2012. All of this material had been legally purchased by Nancy Lanza.

FIREARMS

Taken to Sandy Hook Elementary:
Izhmash Saiga 12-gauge semiautomatic shotgun
Bushmaster Model XM15-E2S .223-caliber semiautomatic rifle
Glock 20 10mm semiautomatic handgun
Sig Sauer P226 9mm semiautomatic handgun

Found in Lanza Home:
Savage Mark II bolt-action .22-caliber rifle
Enfield Albian bolt-action .323-caliber rifle
Volcanic .22-caliber starter pistol
The Savage Mark II bolt-action .22-caliber rifle that Adam Lanza used to kill his mother.

MAGAZINES

Taken to Sandy Hook Elementary:
Two 12-gauge shotgun magazines
10 30-round .223 magazines
6 30-round 9mm magazines
6 30-round 10mm magazines

Found in Lanza Home:
Clear plastic Ramline magazine for an AR-15
Three AGP Arms lnc. 12-gauge shotgun magazines (empty)
One Promag 20 round 12-gauge drum magazine
One MDArms 20 round 12-gauge drum magazine
Two AGP Arms lnc. 12-gauge shotgun magazines, taped together, each with 10 rounds
Surefire GunMag magazine with 8 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge 9 pellet buck
AGP Arms Inc. Gen 2 12-gauge shotgun magazine
Magazine with 10 rounds of .223-caliber bullets

AMMUNITION

Taken to Sandy Hook Elementary:
20 12-gauge shotgun rounds
301 rounds of .233-caliber ammunition
116 rounds of .9mm ammunition
90 rounds of 10mm ammunition

The Bushmaster Model XM15-E2S .223-caliber semiautomatic rifle that Adam Lanza used to kill 26 people at Sandy Hook Elementary.
Found in Lanza Home:

Five Winchester 12-gauge shotgun shells, cut open, with buckshot
White plastic bag containing 30 Winchester 12-gauge shotgun shells
Box with 20 Estate 12-gauge shotgun shells
Four boxes of SB buckshot 12-gauge, 40 rounds
Box of Lightfield 12-gauge slugs
Six “Winchester” 9 pellet buckshot shells (12-gauge)
Two Remington 12-gauge slugs
Winchester 12-gauge 9 pellet buck
10 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge 9 pellet buck
Planters can with numerous .22 and .45 caliber bullets
Wooden box with numerous rounds of Winchester .45-caliber bullets
Two boxes of PPU .45 caliber auto., 100 rounds
Box of “Fiocchi” .45-caliber auto with 48 rounds
Box of Magtech .45-caliber ACP with 30 rounds
Tan bag containing numerous Blazer .45-caliber bullets
Box containing 400 rounds of Winchester Wildcat .22-caliber bullets
Two boxes of .22-caliber long rifle Blazer, 100 rounds
80 rounds of CCI .22-caliber long rifle
31 .22-caliber rounds
Small plastic bag containing numerous .22 caliber bullets
Full box of Blazer .22 caliber long rifle, 50 rounds
Box of 20 Prvi Partizan .30-30 British rifle cartridges
Box of 20 Federal .303 British rifle cartridges
Box of PPU .303-caliber British cartridges with 9 rounds
Box of 20 rounds of Remington .223-caliber
Three Winchester .223-caliber rifle rounds
Six boxes of PMC .223-caliber, 20 rounds each
Three boxes of Blazer 40-caliber S&W, 150 rounds
Two boxes of Winchester 5.56mm, 40 rounds
Two boxes of Underwood 10mm auto, 100 rounds
Box of Underwood 10mm auto with 34 rounds
130 rounds of Lawman 9mm luger in 3 boxes
Box of miscellaneous 9mm rounds, 29 total
Two Win 9mm rounds
Small box of miscellaneous rounds

So you are saying a responsible gun owner had this arsenal in the house, obviously safely locked up (yea sure), with boy that had lifetime history of mental illness. What could possibly go wrong?

Gee, I wonder if one of those awful trigger lock or safe storage laws the NRA fights bitterly against would have mattered?

A little bit of hyperbole on the commander and chiefs part ... but ... when the President says things like this ...

“We’re the only developed country on earth where this happens.”

... and that his greatest frustration has been an inability to make ground in sensible gun control legislation, I don't think this issue is quietly under the rug, behind tabloids and typical media distractions.

Sandyhook was the wake up to pay attention, and now any further incident, increase the temperature and desire for change.

The usual leftist.... blah blah blah lets ban something to accomplish nothing.

Call it Crazy says

So, was Adam Lanza a law abiding gun owner or did he commit a felony by stealing the weapons from their lawful owner???

Yes, and the law was clearly inadequate or it wouldn't have been possible.

Call it Crazy says

So, was Adam Lanza a law abiding gun owner or did he commit a felony by stealing the weapons from their lawful owner???

Law abiding or not, it doesn't matter. Remove the guns from that situation and a whole let less death would have occurred. Just like if you added a grenade, or two, a whole lot more would be dead.

This again, is a part of the circular debate. We won't change each others minds here.

If we want to tip this someplace more positive, and specific though, what should the legal requirement for storing of firearms be for an owner? Who can they provide access to the firearms to? How do they have to restrict access to the firearms?

The laws today are overly general and vary greatly from state to state. Also how much liability a gun owner has if their firearm is stolen from them and used in a crime varies greatly. That needs to change.

Drunk drivers are pariahs in our society. Irresponsible gun owners are about to make that list too. That is the cultural shift that is coming. With it will eventually come tougher punishments and stricter restrictions.

FortWayne says

The usual leftist.... blah blah blah lets ban something to accomplish nothing.

Requiring runs to be locked and not allowing them in a house with the mentally ill is banning? In what alternative universe?

FortWayne says

The usual leftist.... blah blah blah lets ban something to accomplish nothing.

No one said ban. Most are not in favor of gun bans.

Rew says

FortWayne says

The usual leftist.... blah blah blah lets ban something to accomplish nothing.

No one said ban. Most are not in favor of gun bans.

Good, I didn't actually read it. I assumed since usually some people just cry "ban" every chance they get.

Rew says

Not half as useless as your comment ... unless you care to elaborate?

Here is a real answer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqylvZL845w&feature=youtu.be

Have ever been around meth heads? I'm thinking similar type deal.

Eli Lilly makes a shit load of money off of this stuff, they are going to do whatever they can to keep it going, think cigarette companies * 10 or 100. You would be hard pressed to find a school shooting that does not involve their fine product...

Call it Crazy says

Yes, what???

Yes means yes. He stole the guns, I never said otherwise. The question is how it was possible?

Anyway I wasn't talking about Lanza in the first place and don't know why I got sidetracked by him. I was talking about all the shooters over the years that were legal law abiding owners of their guns.

Call it Crazy says

Oh and Bob, that list is NOT an arsenal... You need some more education..

A single mother having 7 guns isn't an arsenal? WTF? You are beyond call it crazy and into full blown crazy. She must have been one hell of a hunter.

You killed him with a bat - whats the matter with you?

You killed him by strangling him - whats the matter with you?

You killed him with a knife - whats the matter with you?

You killed him with a gun, we need to outlaw guns.

bob2356 says

Glock 20 10mm semiautomatic handgun

6 30-round 10mm magazines

Hmmm something doesn't seem right with this list. Glock nor any other aftermarket manufacturer makes a 30rd magazine for the Glock 20/29, unless he modified them somehow. I have one, and the largest capacity I have seen is 15 rounds.

mmmarvel says

You killed him with a bat - whats the matter with you?

You killed him by strangling him - whats the matter with you?

You killed him with a knife - whats the matter with you?

You killed him with a gun, we need to outlaw guns.

bombs don't kill people. people do. so lets allow everybody to carry bombs..may be a nuclear bomb. it will be a very polite society.

what wrong in accepting that more guns cause more deaths in aggregate. Its the price we pay to safeguard against any potential mass killings that usually happens ( few times a century on avg) when governments go crazy and people are unarmed.

Rep/Con/Teas must remember that the 2nd Amendment trumps the life of their loved ones when fatally shot. The shooter has the right to bear arms.

Why school shootings? Why now? Mental illness isn't new. Guns being accessible to kids isn't new. In fact, accessibility has been more pervasive in times of greater lawlessness. Why killing innocent people? What has changed?

What once was unthinkable to disturbed, humiliated kids is now an option. Why?

Why can't you instantly think of a dozen other reasons?

Why school shootings? Why now? Mental illness isn't new. Guns being accessible to kids isn't new. In fact, accessibility has been more pervasive in times of greater lawlessness. Why killing innocent people? What has changed?

What once was unthinkable to disturbed, humiliated kids is now an option. Why?

Other than the continued availability of guns and ammo, why can't you instantly think of a dozen reasons other reasons?

deepcgi says

What has changed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqylvZL845w&feature=youtu.be

Guns have been around 100s of years. Guns do not correlate with the increase in school shootings. Logic 101. What the video is talking about does...

deepcgi says

Why school shootings?

Here's a solution, let's get rid of schools. Then there will be no school shootings - along with a ton of other nonsense that goes along with the school debate.

mmmarvel says

deepcgi says

Why school shootings?

Here's a solution, let's get rid of schools. Then there will be no school shootings - along with a ton of other nonsense that goes along with the school debate.

Now there's an idea... I've always advocated homeschooling and now, we've got good reason.

population growth.
given the 'crazy' percentage of the population holding it's own, 1 out of 1000 crazy people, not so much a threat.
350,000 out of 350,000,000, houston, we have a problem....

deepcgi says

Why school shootings? Why now? Mental illness isn't new. Guns being accessible to kids isn't new. In fact, accessibility has been more pervasive in times of greater lawlessness. Why killing innocent people? What has changed?

bombs take out more than the attacker.
case closed.

jkaldi1 says

bombs don't kill people. people do. so lets allow everybody to carry bombs..may be a nuclear bomb. it will be a very polite society.

Although I think child psych meds are a definite factor, no one wants to call Michael Moore on his doubts that media consumption is a factor?

Do we outlaw guns but allow the kids to continue firing all the rounds they want into other realistic looking humans on the game consoles?

(Hint: In my career I've been, often, in the video game industry. I'm credited on 14 international pc and console games -a few of the biggest of all time. And "yes" I think I'm indirectly culpable).

deepcgi says

Although I think child psych meds are a definite factor, no one wants to call Michael Moore on his doubts that media consumption is a factor?

At the very least there is a correlation. Doesn't the use of Prozac and similar parallel the shootings?

Again Eli Lilly and similar are going to cover this up for as long as possible as this is an 12 billion or so industry with what 99% gross profit?

Does this mean that they are finally giving up?

Cannot resist. Futile, but ... but ... fun ... :)

Call it Crazy says

Exactly, and as I've said before, I respect your viewpoint that you don't like firearms while others do.

But you want major restrictions be put on law abiding owners because YOU don't like firearms?? Is that fair to the people who use firearms responsibly??

I actually really like firearms. I own one. I don't shoot as much as I used to though. I come form a military family and have many friends in law enforcement.

Call it Crazy says

I don't like baseball, and a baseball bat has been used many times to kill people. Should I start a rally cry to ban baseball because I don't like it?? Is that fair to the millions of people who play baseball without issues??

We can also get into the data of comparing firearm deaths to other forms of deaths, and the list is a lot LARGER for many other "items", so why aren't you starting a crusade to ban and restrict them??

The murder weapon of choice, in the US, is a gun. Typically each year 60% of murder is committed by firearm.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/murder-weapon-statistics/

Telling me breathing air, cars, alcohol, the sun are all lethal, and some kill more people than firearms is not in contention here. We are talking murder and mass killings. Baseball and even knife, don't rate compared to a firearm.

Call it Crazy says

It comes down to your "emotional" response against firearms instead of a logical response... It's bad policy to base laws and restrictions on "emotions"....

You are right if the majority of the decision is motivated by emotion and emotion alone. Let's be even more specific and call the emotion by name : fear. Fear is the greatest human motivator out there. You can see massively bad national decisions in the past 20 years, for us in the US, have all been highly fear motivated.

The odds are statistically pretty low, that my child will be gunned down in his life due to a school mass shooting. But he has better odds of dying by gun than by cancer while he is young. Cancer right now is not preventable. Death by firearm, much more so.

I don't think it is too much of an ask, too great of an inconvenience, too much of an infringement on rights, that we make would be gun owners display greater competence at time of sale, and enforce draconian measures against those who let their firearms fall into the hands of criminals or minors.

The constitution is not a suicide pact but right now it is being used to harm some of our most vulnerable and valuable citizens : our children.

How's that for emotion?

Rew says

The constitution is not a suicide pact but right now it is being used to harm some of our most vulnerable and valuable citizens : our children.

So why continue to allow them to be poisoned?

Guns are not the issue.

indigenous says

Rew says

The constitution is not a suicide pact but right now it is being used to harm some of our most vulnerable and valuable citizens : our children.

So why continue to allow them to be poisoned?

Guns are not the issue.

Poisoned? Is there a high rate of murdered children due to poison?

Rew says

Poisoned? Is there a high rate of murdered children due to poison?

Yes, review the Michael Moore clip.

Call it Crazy says

Ahhhh... You finally hit on the main issue... FEAR...

It occurs to me that what is needed is to raise peoples comfort level of guns. The media has them cowed. If I get out a gun (unloaded) the fear on the people's face that have drank the cool aid is very apparent.

Rew says

The laws today are overly general and vary greatly from state to state. Also how much liability a gun owner has if their firearm is stolen from them and used in a crime varies greatly. That needs to change.

Drunk drivers are pariahs in our society. Irresponsible gun owners are about to make that list too. That is the cultural shift that is coming. With it will eventually come tougher punishments and stricter restrictions.

Drunk driver to irresponsible (an objective standpoint at best) gun owner comparison made is ridiculous. The drunk driver is DIRECTLY committing the END ACT that may or may not wind up maiming, killing, or destroying property. The gun owner, irresponsible or not, having no actual control in what the individual that took said firearm / ammunition from them, is not the END ACT perpetrator. A proper comparison would have been an individual who leaves their vehicle (considered by some/most to be a dangerous weapon in the wrong hands), accessible to anyone who walks by OR has the capability to obtain operation of it in any state (again, irresponsible is HIGHLY objective).

This whole ideology reeks of the incessant need pushed by LAW/GOV that someone/anyone must PAY for a "crime" that has been committed. The thought process that needs to see the WHOLE PICTURE past the individual committing the act that directly wronged another individual just feeds the LEO, Judicial, and Legislative coffers (Hint, this is what they want to keep it ever expanding.) If an individual stole, took, used, borrowed an item without express permission given by the owner of said item, the individual using the item when the crime happened is the cause of the crime. If the individual had permission to use the item, but the owner did not know that the end use would be the resultant crime, the individual using the item when the crime happened is still the cause of the crime. Only if someone lends/gives/sells another individual an item that they full well know will be used in the resultant crime and they consent to still lend/give/sell that item to the END ACT individual should they also be prosecuted for a crime.

Emotions are a funny thing,E.G. man is the only animal that gets embarrassed or needs to be.

Restrictive gun laws are basically discrimination. If a gun owner hasn't done anything, why are they being singled out? If we are speaking statistics, why not just ban blacks from owning guns? Wouldn't that stop many of the gang shootings?

We have had shootings involving active military or police officers (I remember one on duty policeman walking into a restaurant and shooting his ex wife and her friend). What makes a policeman somehow different to be able to own a gun where as a private citizen shouldn't? Since we've had shootings with a policeman as the shooter, why should they be allowed to own guns? I'm not seeing how someone has more rights based on their profession.

Basically parents just simply don't want to admit that their kids are nuts. They need to teach their kids some morals. And has anyone thought to look into the school system? Don't they have something to answer for (they are educators, after all) in making the kids nuts? How about the liberal bullshit marriage laws that basically hang dad out to dry in a divorce, leaving legions of single parents raising nuts kids?

To give an idea of how much the world has changed: when I went to high school we had a shooting range - in the high school. The school principal was the coach of our shooting team. Many high schools here had their own shooting teams. There were zero accidents (how many kids are injured playing football every year?). We wouldn't have ever even thought of the concept of shooting anyone.

As gun owners, its not our fault that you or the modern school system have made your kid into a psychopath. Just admit to the problem and put metal detectors in all the schools. Strip search all the kids like they are going into prison. But don't blame all the legal, law abiding gun owners for shitty parenting. We are not going to give up our rights because your kid is a psychopath.