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The smartest people throughout the centuries acknowleged God or gods.

Like Socrates? What was the reason he was killed, I forget?

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uomo_senza_nome 2011 Dec 20, 2:58am

The smartest people throughout the centuries acknowleged God or gods.

If by God, you mean an 'old man in the sky', no they did not.

You are all very angry Elves aren't you....

Looks like you're the one who's getting angry, because of the need to face the facts. Rather than admitting the weaknesses, you are ridiculing the people presenting the facts.

7 upisdown 2011 Dec 20, 3:06am

And for all the supposed superior morality the religous kooks have, why do they have a system to absolve themselves when they actually do immoral things?

blind follower: father, my neighbor caught me sleeping with his wife, and he's really ticked off.
preist: that's a no-no and you shouldn't do it again. Say 150 hail-marys and all is good.
blind follower: I have a thousand bucks
preist: make that 10 hail-marys. Did I mention that we have some stuff on sale in the rectorory(ironic name, huh?)?
blind follower: deal

But what about the ticked-off neighbor?

It must be tough shit for him, unless of course he's a beleiver..............

8 ReasonNotFaith 2011 Dec 20, 5:55am

Religion is means only to express God.

And kill... And rape... And torture... And own slaves...

If god is love (1John 4:7-8) You have a really funny definition of love.

9 ReasonNotFaith 2011 Dec 21, 2:26pm

do you really think the guy who doesn't go to Church is always the moral person?

No, but he didn't profess to be... But the pedophile priest did....

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MisdemeanorRebel 2011 Dec 22, 1:58am

You ever read Socrates you idiot? Wow.

I have never read a book by Socrates. There's a really good reason why, maybe you can tell me.

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MisdemeanorRebel 2011 Dec 22, 2:14am

Go for it...Plato Socrates and the Cave...read something from the greatest philosophers in the world.

Oh boy.

read a book by Socrates.

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Dan8267 2011 Dec 27, 11:06pm

thunderlips11 says

read a book by Socrates.

Not possible.

1. There were no books at the time of Socrates, only scrolls.

2. Socrates did not write. Rather, his lectures and allegories where written down by his pupil, Plato.

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MisdemeanorRebel 2011 Dec 28, 12:01am

I have never read a book by Socrates. There's a really good reason why, maybe you can tell me.

Dan8267 says

2. Socrates did not write. Rather, his lectures and allegories where written down by his pupil, Plato.

That's the reason. Six Pack of Virtual Beer for Dan.

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MisdemeanorRebel 2011 Dec 29, 2:34am

http://www.youtube.com/embed/LhDMCRlFAxs

But of course, you are smarter than they were....course. Wow.

What was Socrates put to death for again?

Oh yeah. Not believing in the city's gods, and corrupting the youth.

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MisdemeanorRebel 2011 Dec 30, 12:48am

Back to the original question.

Here is the purpose of religious debate:

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Bap33 2011 Dec 30, 2:19am

I think some clearification may be needed:
1) what is a debate? (this alone could take weeks of debate - hay, a funny!)
2) why debate? (again, a debate about why/when/how/ to debate)
3) what is religion? (hmmm, could take a while)
4) why debate religion? Well, you would debate cause, effect, base, attitude, direction, power, position, ... heck, exchange "religion" for "government" or "society" ... the same answers might be found. I dunno.

Nobody on here ever read anything wrote by Plato. You read something wrote by someone that read something wrote by someone that read something wrote by someone that read something wrote by someone that read something wrote by Plato.

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marcus 2011 Dec 30, 2:47am

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MisdemeanorRebel 2011 Dec 30, 2:54am

Nobody on here ever read anything wrote by Plato. You read something wrote by someone that read something wrote by someone that read something wrote by someone that read something wrote by someone that read something wrote by Plato.

I read the Symposium and the Republic. Granted, it was years ago.

Found the whole thing about the hermaphrodite being being split into two to be bizarre. The Symposium was interesting because it shows the basis for Western Civilization rests on a few drunken pederasts.

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Bap33 2011 Dec 30, 2:59am

you read the original? Or a copy of a copy of a copy of a translation of a copy of a translation?

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MisdemeanorRebel 2011 Dec 30, 3:10am

you read the original? Or a copy of a copy of a copy of a translation of a copy of a translation?

The latter, just like the The Order of Things, the Histories, the Conquest of Gaul, Germania, the OT, NT, and Koran.

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Bap33 2011 Dec 30, 3:38am

Right.
It seems like most of what is wrote in those early collections, that is attributed to oral communications from earlier philosi, is questioned a great deal by anyone who lacks faith. The OT is an example.

You have faith that what you read was actually what Plato wrote, and that THAT was what Socretes said. That is faith. Right?

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MisdemeanorRebel 2011 Dec 30, 3:58am

You have faith that what you read was actually what Plato wrote, and that THAT was what Socretes said. That is faith. Right?

Here's the difference, Bap. Plato presents Socrates as offering ideas - and debating others' ideas - about how the world is ordered and how people think. He isn't claiming that Socrates knows that 'true love' can only be between Men, and those who prefer to love Women aren't going to the Land of Ideal Forms, because the Omnipotent Creator God told him so. At most, Plato presents Socrates as one Fart Smeller, but he does not put Socrates on the level of an agent of the Absolute Divine Truth like Mohammed.

Plato's books summarize conversations arising out of the ancient Greek version of a Dorm Room Bull Session or a Salon Discussion.

The religious books are claimed as absolutely true words of the Sky God, as told to his Prophets.

Synopsis of a Bullshit Session vs. Absolute Claims of Divine Truth.

It's much more important that the latter suffer no bad translations or copyist errors, right?

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MisdemeanorRebel 2011 Dec 30, 5:21am

http://scaleofuniverse.com/

The smartest people throughout the centuries acknowleged God or gods.

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marcus 2011 Dec 30, 5:40am

IF that graph had been drawn by Newton, Einstein or Hawking, I think instead of a simple line with slope - 1, they would have used something more like an exponential decay curve.

Obviously man never gets to where he knows everything. Especially concerning questions such as why ?

Here's an interesting question. On a scale of 0 to 10, with zero representing knowing nothing and 10 representing us knowing everything, where would you put us ?

Note: By knowing something I mean that at least one human has figured it out and it is accepted as probably true. What I don't mean by everything is knowing the nearly impossible (such as geography of planets on the other side of the universe).

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Bap33 2011 Dec 30, 1:31pm

http://i.imgur.com/Ls03K.png

Synopsis of a Bullshit Session vs. Absolute Claims of Divine Truth.
It's much more important that the latter suffer no bad translations or copyist errors, right?

I agree 100%
I happen to believe that the Word of God was passed down in that exact Bull Session manner in the early human days. Just a bunch of guys around the camp fire listening to Gramps tell that flood story one more time. The transition to absolutes came later. And, then, in my opinion, when Jesus showed up he went about things old school style ... teaching God's word and sharing God's "intent" in a more laid-back manner while teaching in the churches, and that pissed off the absolutists running things at that time. Just my gut talking.

26 kentm 2011 Dec 30, 6:46pm

Reminds me of an old joke: "A young monk, new to the monastery, noticed that the scribes were copying the scriptures from copies, not originals. He expressed his concern to the abbot that any mistakes in the copies would be passed on, and the scriptures would become corrupted. The abbot replied that this is the way it had always been done but the point was valid, and he would check it out. He descended into the vaults to look over the originals, and he was gone a long time. With some concern, the young monk went looking for him and found him sobbing with abandon, his tears pouring upon his frock. "What is the matter, my good abbot?" asked the monk, to which the abbot choked out, "In the original, the word was 'celebrate'!""

Also, here's an epic facebook debate on discovery vs. Belief, pretty amazing:

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Dan8267 2011 Dec 31, 6:31am

marcus says

IF that graph had been drawn by Newton, Einstein or Hawking, I think instead of a simple line with slope - 1, they would have used something more like an exponential decay curve.

That makes no sense for two reasons. First, the graph given by thunderlips11 shows the "role of god" as a function of "knowledge of man", not as a function of time. Even if mankind's knowledge was asymptotically approaching a finite value, the "role of god" as a function of knowledge would not be an exponential decay. Sure, the "role of god" as a function of time might, but not as a function of knowledge.

Second, if anything, mankind's knowledge has been increasing exponentially. We have learned more in the past century than in all centuries before that. We have learned more in the past 50 years than in the 200 before that. We have learned more in the past 25 years than in the 75 before that. If anything, you should be scared shitless how quickly man is learning things and acquiring power over nature.

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Dan8267 2011 Dec 31, 6:36am

Many of us are already at the "God explains nothing" point even without complete knowledge. Eventually, all this faith based nonsense will die out. The quicker the better, but it will go away.

It is as inevitable as ending slavery, woman's suffrage, gay marriage, and the rights of sentient robots (yeah, that's coming too baby, just give a century or two). Society will, by necessity, always move towards ending injustices in the long run despite whatever setbacks religion throws at it.

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Bap33 2011 Dec 31, 10:47am

for there to be "injustices", there must be justice. From whence does man's faith/hope/belief in justice spark?

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Dan8267 2012 Jan 1, 1:32am