patrick.net

m1ckey6 says

I pointed out that, while unions have benefits, that her union was actively lobbying to restrict the ability of the LAUSD to fire pedophiles upon the presentation of actionable evidence.

Source please.

m1ckey6 says

The simplest argument against public unions is that they have no natural enemy.

It would seem that ignorance is their natural enemy. Public education is definitely doomed without unions. But then that is the wish of those feeding you the BS.

m1ckey6 says

I pointed out that, while unions have benefits, that her union was actively lobbying to restrict the ability of the LAUSD to fire pedophiles upon the presentation of actionable evidence.

http://ironicsurrealism.com/2012/02/14/lausd-paid-utla-union-pedophile-teacher-to-resign/

This guy is going to go to jail for a long time. LAUSD made a command decision to pay him (cut a deal) 40K severance to get him to leave immediately.

This was cheap and efficient compared to follwing union procedures and CONTRACTUAL RIGHTS (not lobbying).

You are as ignorant as those people on facebook said. Teachers have contracts, and the union has the job of representing the teachers side of that contract. It's law.

This is kind of analogous to crying because when someone is arrested (with evidence) of a heinous murder, why can't we just execute them immediately, or sentence them to life in prison immediately ?

The union is a boogeyman !!!

By the way, given the few recent instance of disgusting sexual abuse in LAUSD, you can be sure that the next version of the contract will have provisions for immediate dismissal under certain circumstances.

I think they are already in the contract, but now they will probably circumvent all due process in certain situations. But it's tricky if you think about it, because usually it's one persons word against another's. There needs to be a process, because remember public schools have all type of students even the occasional sociopaths that could make a false accusation.

Do teachers who commit their lives to teaching deserve any protection whatsoever from this ?

Contrary to what you might believe, the instances of teachers doing these things is very low. Probably way less than 1 in 1000 teachers sexually abuse kids.

marcus says

I will grant you, being a govt worker in California, where we don't know how to solve problems is kinda scary.

CA is complacent. Everyone kicks the can down the road until the system collapses. I don't see any private sector future here.

Many residents of CA already believe that education costs are not worth the result they are getting, that state has way too many problems with illegals, and a pension system it can't sustain, while economy is tanking.

At least being in government you are guaranteed a very cushy retirement, being in private sector there are no guarantees. And either way I think the state is doomed.

marcus says

What I really hear you saying is that private sector jobs sure have gotten shit on in the last 30 years.

What happened to our country? We used to see people doing "better" than us, and that made us ask, why can't we be like them? Now, we see people doing "better" than us, and now all we can do is kneecap them and claw them down to our level.

I think it's a type of class warfare that corporate America has incited, framing yet another "us" vs. "them" pitting us vs. the public workers. If nobody has collective bargaining rights, the rest of us workers won't get any bright ideas to speak up and fight for them to get them back.

Enough name-calling. Police, firefighters and teachers are public workers. They are not villainous scoundrels who scheme to exist solely to live on the taxpayers largess, they are ORDINARY PEOPLE with lives and families who chose that line of work, who show up every day and do their jobs just like you and me.

And if you think they have it so good, there's nothing stopping you from taking one of these cushy jobs and living large like they do...

+1

JonnyDanger says

What happened to our country? We used to see people doing "better" than us, and that made us ask, why can't we be like them? Now, we see people doing "better" than us, and now all we can do is kneecap them and claw them down to our level.

This is about fair competition. Who wants to play the game when it's rigged for you to lose? The feelings of many is that public sector is accountable to no one, they just buy politicians in exchange for benefits... the way corporations lobby Congress. It's a crony system that needs to be changed out.

Government unions simply got too strong, and every power has only one desire to grow itself. That power must be kept in check before it consumes all under it's own gluttony and greed.

JonnyDanger says

I think it's a type of class warfare that corporate America has incited, framing yet another "us" vs. "them" pitting us vs. the public workers. If nobody has collective bargaining rights, the rest of us workers won't get any bright ideas to speak up and fight for them to get them back.

You're exactly right. The only part that's amazing is all the FWs of the world that eat up the "race to the bottom" propaganda.

JonnyDanger says

And if you think they have it so good, there's nothing stopping you from taking one of these cushy jobs and living large like they do...

Yep.

JonnyDanger says

Enough name-calling. Police, firefighters and teachers are public workers. They are not villainous scoundrels who scheme to exist solely to live on the taxpayers largess, they are ORDINARY PEOPLE with lives and families who chose that line of work, who show up every day and do their jobs just like you and me.

Thank you.

PockyClipsNow says

100% of all pensions will fail. its a guarantee. basic math really.

All they can hope for is that the entity they are parasitizing off lives longer than they do, the same dream of the tapeworm.

No, it's not basic math. Basic math on pensions is very easy to work out. What basic math doesn't take into account is that public union pension funds are an irresistible honey pot that politicians can't keep their fingers out of. Most of the states and cities that are really in trouble simply stole the money from the pension funds frequently including the money put in by public workers as well. NJ would be a good example of this. What a mess.

The scumbag politicians are now playing the blame game to keep their own asses out of the line of fire. Look at all those greedy teachers, police, firefighters. They expect to be paid the money we agreed to pay them, but spent buying votes instead. What ingrates.

I'm not saying public unions are blameless or should even exist. Public unions bear a lot of blame, however they are doing what they exist to do. Getting the best deal for union members. The basic fact is that our elected representatives made this mess for their own personal gain knowing full well that for the most part the shit would hit the fan after they were gone.

Look, the ALL WILL FAIL. 100% of them. Guaranteed.

Are you guys assuming the united states of america or our fiat currency or our current political system will last for 10,000 years? 1,000 years? How about 100 years? when does it fail and we 'start over'. We dont know.

But we DO KNOW that everything dies. The pension wagon will run off the road at some point and that generation of people depending on it will get a lesser or zero return than promised.

Eventually in 65b years the sun will go supernova and destroy the earth also.

The only reason pensions are legal is that the entities promising them normally do live longer than the people they promise to take care of. Like when you adopt a cat.

But parrots live 30 years. Who here can promise a parrot he can take care of him that long? I cant.

PockyClipsNow says

The only reason pensions are legal is that the entities promising them normally do live longer than the people they promise to take care of. Like when you adopt a cat.

This shows a severe lack of understanding. The pension isn't simply guaranteed.

Here's how it works. The entities promising them actually promise this.
We will provide for a pension as follows:

*Part of your monthly pay, instead of going directly to you will go to a pension fund (I see these deductions from every pay check). We will do this for every year you work for us. And we will match your contribution and possibly the state throws in an additional percent or 2 of salary more.

*If you work in this job at least to the age of X_1, then you may retire and recieve a pension based on a formala (number of years worked)*(some factor),
if you work to age X_2 then the formula will be the same, with a higher factor. Usually the highest factor kicks in somewhere between 62 and 65 (but is different for police and Fire because of the danger and risk taking involved in the work).

There are 2 main differences between this and a 401k with matching.

1) The contributions of the employee to the pension fund are not optional.

2) Benefits are guaranteed, meaning that the employer (indirectly the state) has liability if the investment performance doesn't get the fund up to the level for payout as guaranteed.

By the way, if you were to look up my pay, which is public knowledge. The figure you would see is my pay before my pension contribution is deducted.

I find complaints about public sector compensation to be off base. Many people who complain in the past worked in "high risk high reward" tech/sales professions where they were thinking that they were going to get all these stock options to exercise and become rich in the process. I guess they forgot about the "high risk" part of the tradeoff. At the same time, people who work in unionized environment "public and private" decided to forego the "high reward" part by lessening the risk and prioritized health and retirement benefits. During the dot com days no one complained about unionized compensation. Now that some people in tech, sales and even small biz people got burned, they take out their frustration on unionized employees. However, if they were to honestly assess the situation, they would realize that everyone had a choice what career track to take. To complain when "high risk" choices don't work out and one gets burned is unethical. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

bob2356 says

Public unions bear a lot of blame, however they are doing what they exist to do. Getting the best deal for union members.

Which is what this article is about. There is no market regulation on this. They get to do what they do in a most inefficient manner with no accountability or free market system. And CA has some of the highest taxes in the nation, and the services we get suck! We priced out.

The system doesn't work if you work for 20 some years and receive full salary benefits for another 30. It's why Greece collapsed, they ran out of money doing just that.

If public pensions were agreed on by taxpayers in a vote, not by just politicians making backroom deals in exchange for votes, the system would be more credible.

http://www.sacbee.com/statepay/
Plenty of people are retiring early with high salaries and benefits.

dublin hillz says

To complain when "high risk" choices don't work out and one gets burned is unethical. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Excellent point. It's almost the little guys version of moral hazard.

FortWayne says

here is no market regulation on this. They get to do what they do in a most inefficient manner with no accountability or free market system.

This is almost entirely bluster and misinformation. Actually this great recession has put immense pressure on schools not only to do things more efficiently, but to take class sizes up in to the 40s, sometimes the 50s.

YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

Yes, it's true, that on top of everything else they've done, they could lower our compensation (more than they have already).

Your emotional thinking goes something like this. I'm already paying more than I want in taxes. So damn it, I refuse to pay more for the things that we want our government to do. I know, I'll argue that it's the very concept of public education and other public services that's the problem. The private sector could do it better.

"The truth is I know that I have no idea what I'm talking about and that I'm grasping at straws. All I really know for sure is I don't want to pay higher taxes. And listening to talk radio helps me focus my anger on an imaginary boogeyman."

FortWayne says

And CA has some of the highest taxes in the nation, and the services we get suck! We priced out.

The amount we spend per student on public education ?

http://putourkidsfirst.com/kidsfirst/nat_money.asp

marcus says

FortWayne says

And CA has some of the highest taxes in the nation, and the services we get suck! We priced out.

The amount we spend per student on public education ?

http://putourkidsfirst.com/kidsfirst/nat_money.asp

Um, this is very old information! Look at the bottom of the page; it is over 10 years old. Multiply each dollar amount by about 1.5 to adjust for inflation! WI pays about $12,000 a year for a public education. Who can afford that after income taxes? If you have 3 kids, you would need an income of $50,000 to just pay for schooling and nothing else.
These costs are not viable and therefore represent inflated public pay because the money comes from stolen taxes and not voluntary transactions by willing participants. If individuals had to pay out of pocket the cost per pupil would be forced to be market driven and would be a lot less, where people could actually afford it.
This is a similar problem as the healthcare industry; insulate people from the high cost of the service and they won’t be deterred from consuming because they are not paying directly out of pocket. These are market distortions that lower everyone's standard of living on the consuming end and gives the "producers" more than is otherwise justifiable.

marcus says

m1ckey6 says

I pointed out that, while unions have benefits, that her union was actively lobbying to restrict the ability of the LAUSD to fire pedophiles upon the presentation of actionable evidence.

Source please.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-teachers-20120629,0,4652915.story

"The current process is so time-consuming and expensive, he said, that L.A. Unified School District chose to pay $40,000 to Mark Berndt, the former Miramonte teacher charged with 23 counts of lewd acts on children, to retire rather than take him through the dismissal process."

Yes, I already addressed this ( that is, after asking for your souce - rather than wait I just looked it up and posted link)

here:

marcus says

1) Now the economy sucks with high unemployment and high underemployment, making public sector benefits seem too good. (Truth is though we have taken pay cuts since 2008). And our compensation (teachers) never was too good, considering the commitment involved.

But maybe the public unions have to be destroyed, which might help the private sector take over these functions. Who cares, as long as public sector misery comes down to private sector misery level.

It's CTA propaganda that has convinced teachers (and many in the public) that "teacher pay" is relatively low. The problem, however, lies in lumping all teachers together. The REAL truth is that elementary school teachers probably are not paid enough, but secondary teachers (jr. high and high school) are paid WAY TOO MUCH, relative to similarly-educated professions.

I teach high school. Here's how my pay breaks down: I teach 2 lessons a day (some years, it's been just one a day), and I repeat one of them several times throughout the day (I teach 5 periods). However, teaching the same subject year after year, "planning time" is now minimal, as I only make minor tweaks to lessons where I don't like how something went. Grading? I have T.A.'s do most of the day-to-day grading. So, my day starts around 7:45 and ends at 3:00. With a 50 minute prep period, a 50 minute "professional learning community" period, 10 minute break, 35 minute lunch, and passing periods, I only "work" 250 minutes a day (4 hours and 10 minutes).

This past year, due to furloughs, our contract called for us to work 175 days. I get 11 sick/personal days (ELEVEN!!!) So, for simplicity sake, not reducing any time for the 18 minimum days I have throughout the year or rally schedules, I essentially "work" 683 hours per year, if I exhaust my sick days every year. This past year, I made a hair under $60,000. Again for simplicity, just salary alone (not benefits, pension, etc.), works out to about $88.00 per hour. Project that over other occupations that have the standard 40 hour work week, 50 weeks a year, and just my salary would equal about $176,000 per year. Can you say 1%?!? As a high school teacher, I think I am justified in saying that CA public high school teachers are grossly overpaid. But hey, I'll take it. : )

The experience of elementary school teachers is different. It's very difficult to do the same lesson the same way year after year. Moreover, elementary teachers teach upwards of 8 lessons once a day (i.e., 4 times the number of lessons a high school teacher teaches). So, there is daily planning. Also, grading is more of an art, and there are no "T.A.'s" to help with grading. And, elementary teachers not only do not have prep periods or passing periods, they are also required to fulfill certain after-school duties on a regular basis. While I am not in a position to work out the math for elementary teachers' pay as I can for secondary teachers, I am confident that their "hourly pay" is FAR lower than that of high school teachers. (It surprises me that nobody ever talks about the difference between different levels of teaching.)

So, unless you are an elementary teacher, you are overpaid to start with. Then, add on the 8.25% that the district is required to kick in to my pension (another common CTA trick is to argue that "teachers pay into their pensions". Correct. We do...8%. However, that's a lot easier to swallow than one might think when it becomes known that teachers do NOT have money withdrawn for social security.), the benefits, etc., and teaching is a pretty sweet gig, financially-speaking...at least for high school teachers.

marcus says

m1ckey6 says

I pointed out that, while unions have benefits, that her union was actively lobbying to restrict the ability of the LAUSD to fire pedophiles upon the presentation of actionable evidence.

http://ironicsurrealism.com/2012/02/14/lausd-paid-utla-union-pedophile-teacher-to-resign/

This guy is going to go to jail for a long time. LAUSD made a command decision to pay him (cut a deal) 40K severance to get him to leave immediately.

This was cheap and efficient compared to follwing union procedures and CONTRACTUAL RIGHTS (not lobbying).

The only place this "contractual right" to get paid after there is credible evidence that you have molested children is in teacher's contracts - in other words the absolutely worst possible place they could exist.
It is really scary that anyone would justify paying a pedo to step down.

"This is kind of analogous to crying because when someone is arrested (with evidence) of a heinous murder, why can't we just execute them immediately, or sentence them to life in prison immediately ?". No it is analogous to a teacher being credibly accused of a heinous murder and the LA Teacher's Union fighting for them to keep their job. This is currently a fact of life here in LA.
I love that your response is to call me stupid by the way in your posts. Ideology on both the right and the left is a scary thing. People seem to literally have no ability to think beyond their narrow self interest. I'm not even anti-union yet you immediately go to personal abuse because there is something I don't like about a specific union. Sad.

Just Reality says

So, unless you are an elementary teacher, you are overpaid to start with.

Not sure if you make me feel way less competent or way more competent than you.

I'm a high school teacher in a good LAUSD high school, and my work day resembles nothing like yours. I don't have TAs to help with grading, although I sometimes pay former Calculus students to help with grading when the load is really high. I often spend etime evenings and weekends on grading and or planning, and I rarely leave work much before 5:00pm.

I usually have at least three preps, and they are always changing with much pressure to do better than before, whether that be the number of students that pass the AP exam, or how well students do on the state tests every spring. Also my classes average over 40 in size.

(note: elementary teachers still usually have less than 30, the same kids all day. I have over 200 )

Plus, I am always asked to do additional out of class duties, some of which I volunteer for in keeping with the culture at our school.

I do have a problem with the hourly work mentality, whcih the union sometimes contributes to. But most teachers I know - with the exception of PE teachers do not view their job as a 6 hour day. More like 9 or 10 hours or more. Plus it's often very draining. You have to be "on" for your classes, in a way that's very demanding, at least for me.

m1ckey6 says

The only place this "contractual right" to get paid after there is credible evidence that you have molested children is in teacher's contracts - in other words the absolutely worst possible place they could exist.

One of the things the contract does is to give teachers protection against being falsely accused or terminated, which makes sense if you think about it. Teachers have committed themselves to the profession - and we are talking about ending their career, and much worse really.

Teachers give grades to students. Sometimes they fail students. It's true that 99.9% of students would never blame anyone but themselves for failing. But what about the .1% or .01% that want to get the teacher back ?

You say there's credible evidence. Yes and there is also a contract. Is the contract supposed to specify where the line is that defines exactly when you should give the teacher a chance to defend themselves and when you shouldn't ?

Do you understand the difficulty of this question ?

m1ckey6 says

- in other words the absolutely worst possible place they could exist.

Everyone hates child molesters. And some have these emotions about teachers unions. But you are really an idiot.

Nobody was talking about whether the guy could return to the classroom. In fact, if you look in to it, you will find that no teachers in that enire school returned right away to the class room !!

We're talking about his pay, and when he was officially terminated from his long term contract. I'm sure you're probably an expert on contract law, and would have had the foresight to put in provisions for such cases but why ?

The guy was taken out of the class room immediately.

The district cut a deal to circumvent a legal process for terminating a teacher. One that usually allows the teacher to make their case.

Nobody is more disturbed by those cases and what the teachers allegedly did than I am. But you are just using the feelings that we all have about child molesters to try to bash the union for what ? Adhering to their contract ? For having a contract ?

EconPete says

Um, this is very old information! Look at the bottom of the page; it is over 10 years old. Multiply each dollar amount by about 1.5 to adjust for inflation!

you're right, although 1.5 is high.

Here from the 2010 census, see page 8.
http://www2.census.gov/govs/school/10f33pub.pdf

Californias relative position compared to other states is close to what it was in 02/03.

Ofcourse people FEEL that public sector unions are unaccountable. Do you know how much time and money conservative thinktanks like the Heritage Foundation, CATO Institute, and AEI spend to drum that into our heads? The truth is that public sector unions are accountable to voters. Look at the Walker incident. When the unions saw public opinion shifting against them, they offered Walker everything he wanted, EXCEPT the right to limit their future ability to negotiate their contracts. Public sector unions bend to the will of the people when they're held to account, if they're not, then nobody is attempting to hold them accountable.

If you want to see unaccountable actors, look at multinational financial institutions.

futuresmc says

Ofcourse people FEEL that public sector unions are unaccountable. Do you know how much time and money conservative thinktanks like the Heritage Foundation, CATO Institute, and AEI spend to drum that into our heads?

Another excellent point. As is this:

futuresmc says

The truth is that public sector unions are accountable to voters. Look at the Walker incident. When the unions saw public opinion shifting against them, they offered Walker everything he wanted, EXCEPT the right to limit their future ability to negotiate their contracts.

We have had pay cuts since 2008. I go to some union meetings, and keep up with what's going on. And I haven't heard anyone suggest we fight the pay cuts we are experiencing. Everyone knows the situation with the states finances, which is very much related to what's going on in the private sector. As you say, we are very sensitive to where the people are at.

But in the case of some of the more gullible right wingers who buy all of the anti-union propaganda ? It's hard for me to not want to set some of these people straight.

marcus says

Not sure if you make me feel way less competent or way more competent than you.

I'm a high school teacher in a good LAUSD high school, and my work day resembles nothing like yours. I don't have TAs to help with grading, although I sometimes pay former Calculus students to help with grading when the load is really high. I often spend etime evenings and weekends on grading and or planning, and I rarely leave work much before 5:00pm.

Not sure either. But, if you have been teaching Calculus for several years, I find it hard to believe that you do much planning at all. What is there to plan differently from year to year? The theorems and rules don't change. I know the standards haven't changed recently (but, with the common core, they will be changing soon, I know). And, for Calculus, I doubt the A.P. test changes much. I might be off-base, but of all the subjects, I would think that math courses, including higher level math, would require the least planning after the first year or two teaching the course (I, too, had a lot of planning in my first few years. Not so much now, though. I teach World History. After a few years, you sort of figure out the best ways to get kids to understand the four causes of World War I, if you know what I mean).

I can see you having more grading, but, maybe you COULD utilize T.A.'s, but choose not to (i.e., if you have all the problems written out, with all the work, why couldn't you instruct a T.A. how to grade the assignments, line by line, even if they haven't taken Calculus before?) I would assume (maybe incorrectly) that you also teach a lower level math (maybe Algebra or Geometry). To be honest, there are some teachers who do stay until 5 or so on many days. I've talked to them about what they do. A lot of it is benign busywork (i.e., one teacher one time said he was creating a spreadsheet, alpha-numerically, of student scores from top to bottom on the last test. When I asked what he was going to do with the data, he said "oh, I just want to arrange it that way because it's easier for me to keep track of." Huh?)

Honestly, teaching has become so efficient. Not sure what every district has, but ours now has "parent portal", where parents can go online and check student grades 24/7. It has drastically reduced time spent playing phone tag with parents who just want to know their kid's grade. We also have a telephone system, where I can send robo-calls to almost any set of parents imaginable with whatever message I want (i.e., tardies, homework due, quizzes, etc.). Grades and attendance are all done in seconds on the computer.

I.M.O., the future of secondary education in a brick and mortar school awaits the fate of the dodo bird. Within 10 or 20 years at the most, 90% of high school education will be done on-line (special ed probably excepted). It's all pretty much just guiding the students through the material, much like in college courses. So, right now, most (not all) of high school education is simply guided study for the advanced students and babysitting with some content thrown in for everybody else (or do parents really feel like their kid is being educated in P.E.? By way of example in social science, last year, I taught a senior government class. When I asked a question one time about the Revolutionary War, NOBODY knew who it was fought against. I then asked students to tell me anything they learned in American History in 11th grade...anything. One kid said "I remember the Emancipation Proclamation". I said that that was great and to tell me anything she remembered about it. She said "I just remember that phrase. I don't remember anything about it. I can't tell you what it's about." My school's API in 2011 was right at 800, btw. We are considered a good academic school in this area.). With budget constraints likely to be a problem indefinitely, I can't see how "high school" won't look dramatically different in the coming years.

Just Reality says

why couldn't you instruct a T.A. how to grade the assignments

What T.A.s ? We don't have T.a.s for that type of thing. There are a few T.A.s that come around briefly at times to help with special ed kids if you're teaching a class that has several RSP students in it. But generally I have little to no access to T.A.s

I'm always planning to try to be more efficient, and to have lessons that are more effective. The fact is that making things happen in a way at that fits our objectives at a fast enough pace is very difficult. As a history teacher, you probably don't have the same kind of pressure (to improve test scores) that we do.

It's tough. I'm never satisfied.

Just Reality says

if you have been teaching Calculus for several years, I find it hard to believe that you do much planning at all. What is there to plan differently from year to year?

I'm in school that only has AP Calculus classes. There is no non AP Calculus. So it's an art. I have to serve the best students, including ones that end up going to the best colleges in the country, while not blowing too many others out of the water. Typically way less than half pass the exam, with only a hand full getting 4s or 5s.

"What is there to plan differently ?"

I'm trying to do better. Trying to figure out ways to get students talking more about what there doing. Trying to motive them to work harder.

I also am always putting together new tests and quizzes. Like I said, I'm never satisfied. MAybe if I had been teaching 20 years it would be different. I'm not sure I would be as good to tell you the truth. I started late (not my first career).

"Private unions are kept in check, while public unions are not."

In check? Private unions have been marginalized for decades.

The public unions are under fire now because we can no longer afford to meet the obligations made to them when the money was coming in.

bobcat says

The public unions are under fire now because we can no longer afford to meet the obligations made to them when the money was coming in.

The reason we can't meet our obilagations is because the banksters sold toxic assets that they knew were going to implode to these pension funds, so now the value of these funds isn't enough to pay out the money owed. Local governments are already strapped and are unwilling dip into the general fund to make up the difference or raise taxes to do so. This was not an issue of overspending but of massive financial fraud. Calling it anything else is to give credence to think tank lies designed to get the banksters off the hook in public debate.

Public union workers are overpaid for the work they do. Obviously previous politicians gave in for the wages they demanded.

But this is also happening to private union workers, like GM. When I was in high school, there was this guy in most of my classes, he said to me, "Company should always pay its employees first, no matter what." I was puzzled. I thought, are you kidding me? Employees can be fired and replaced, but if I, the owner, is gone, the company dies. Later I found out that his father was a GM plant manager in Detroit!

We can all complain about the union living off all citizens. The next important question is:

*** How to fix the Union pay so we all dont have to support and subsidize their luxurious retirement?

1) Tax rates on the wealthy are way down IN THE PRESENT. Political contributions from these wealthy are way up. 2) At the same time promised FUTURE BENEFITS to the workers are up ( a diabolical exchange for the lower tax rates) 3) The returns promised to pension funds are not reliably available any longer (Do you think investing in bogus loans or in slave colonies overseas is a good bet?) 4) The 'guarantees' are there to maintain faith in the financial sector so they can remain in charge. 5) The promises can only be paid by an entity that has the legal right to print money. And print it they will 6) The promised money will buy less.

robertoaribas says

Remember when the Teachers, Fire fighters, Policemen etc. crashed the economy in 2007? Me neither...

They are crashing themselves.

And hey I don't remember the last time CA schools had actual standards, as George Carlin put it "All you need to graduate is a pencil." Can thank unions for lowering standards, lobbying to get illegals into our schools, and killing our education system.

As soon as you say taxes are "stolen", you've jumped out of reality. Taxes are what we pay for government, to protect ourselves from living in a "might makes right" anarchy. Are taxes too high, too low, applied to the wrong things, spent on the wrong things? That's all up for debate, and for the election of officials who can make choices. (There's no way we could do it without representatives - direct voting on every detail is tough enough in a room full of people, so imagine how hard it would be in a country.)

MoneySheep says

Employees can be fired and replaced, but if I, the owner, is gone, the company dies. Later I found out that his father was a GM plant manager in Detroit!

Who is the "owner" of GM. I thought it was a public company?

It's so true. Public employee unions exist only for the purpose of squeezing more dollars out of John Q. Taxpayer.

FortWayne says

And hey I don't remember the last time CA schools had actual standards,

He went on, "In fact I don't know anything, but here's something else I'm pulling out of my ass."