patrick.net

rebb: you're on!

controlio: he is only 7 and has not yet developed all the social graces that it would require for him to not take this behavior and bring it into other situations where it would be less appropriate/more likely to get him a punch in the face.

greg: I am very good at using my inside voice and my outside voice-- in my conversations with realtors I have never used foul language, nor have I been anything but transparent.

I expect that the first realtor stopped returning my emails because I was too honest: I said I really really wasn't going to buy in the next 3 months, even if she showed me my dream house. I really really just wanted her to send me listings in my price range so that I could educate myself about the market-- because I specifically *didn't* want to waste her time and have her show me houses that I wasn't going to buy. I even told her that in 12 to 18 months, I would be ready to make offers. (This was last spring, BTW-- about 15 months ago. So I was even true and accurate there.)

regarding your other points: While I could say that it is my time to waste-- Dude, this is my first offer in a very strange market. It is all about the learning experience. I may be screwing up, but I hope I am learning something about the house-buying process along the way. And if nothing else, it's fodder for My Next Novel. (or my blog. I'm not always old skool.)

And yes, as I've said several times, I am not currently working with a buyer's agent *and I am fully aware of that fact*. The stars have not yet aligned, I'm an ignorant foul-mouthed bitch who can't keep a realtor happy, they're all too busy shining their Bentleys to answer my emails, whatever reason suits my mood/ the company. Hellifiknow.

This is a tiny, incestuous real estate market-- it's *why* I am ranting here, in relative anonymity. I don't have enough cash to vent at the realtors/sellers/uninformed buyers who control/ enable this market to stay so painfully high. (if i was an all-cash buyer, i think i would not need to vent at all, actually...)

re Part Two-- This is the second time that a property I was eyeing has only been listed after it's already gone into contract with someone else. I get that that is common practice in my town. I don't like it, but that isn't what pissed me off. It was petty, but I was pissed that I was getting an auto-love-to-talk-to-you... it was like when I get robo-called during dinner for a non-profit. I know it isn't personal, and i am inclined to think positively towards the source, but the lack of thinking about *me* as anything other than a purse to be snatched bugs me to pieces. ...and in order not to make a mortgage-limiting move, i vented here.

In fact, our current strategy is all about making the realtor see me as a real human being. (During our last chat, she chuckled and said *I* should become a real estate agent. I am still debating whether that was a good sign or her saying, 'Go to hell'... it was before we placed our offer, so it could go either way...)

...so yeah. healthy ego, inflated house prices. my attitude is rapidly degenerating to match the housing stock that is available. and really, I'm doing the best I can. We may rent forever, and if we do that will be because it appeared to be the smartest use of our money and our lives as each opportunity to do otherwise presented itself.

isn't that what we all are doing, here? trying to educate ourselves and learn from each other so that we can make better decisions?

greg, i really hope your comments were made in the spirit of educating me, and not (as it appeared to me) smugly smashing my ego down to size. because that would be disrespectful and uncool, don't you think?

aliag says

controlio: he is only 7 and has not yet developed all the social graces that it would require for him to not take this behavior and bring it into other situations where it would be less appropriate/more likely to get him a punch in the face.

Fair enough, but maybe it'd be good for a realtor or owner to hear about what a piece of crap their house is from a 7-year old. :) "Mommy/Daddy, this house is junky compared to the last one we saw. How is the price $100,000 higher?"

not to hijack this thread onto Astoria issues but I get the feeling that people commenting really don't understand just how odd and incestuous the market is here, and how much control realtors have. For example, most listings do not wind up in a MLS. Most realtors seem to do alot, if not most of their work (and make most of their money) as brokers for rentals. In that other guise, they don't want to show you more than 3 or 4 places--you are expected to pick one of the ones you are shown in the course of about an hour. Otherwise, you are not worth their time and effort (despite the fact that you will be paying 1 month's rent--typically $2000-3400). Why? Because Astoria is a popular neighborhood and there are so many potential clients that the realtor/broker can just move on to the next one who will probably be easier to bulldoze. That attitude definitely carries over into the sale market as well.

p.s. 122 is a great school, and so is GUG. If we lived in the 122 catchment we would have been way less obsessed with the G&T stuff.

God I am glad that I don't live in NYC.

propitup1 says

God I am glad that I don't live in NYC

It's not for everybody, but, then, no place is. I think the city had its last breath a few years ago. It has since gone from unaffordable to plain foolhardy to live there, given that the cute/hip/vibrant/gentrifying neighborhoods seem to be pushing further and further into The Void.

When it takes an hour subway ride to commute to your Manhattan job and you pay 2500/mo to rent what amounts to A Compromise, you become mean and lose your looks.

Future Cash Buyer says

RE is a crooked industry. We made an offer at listing price+$10k and never heard anything back. Then the house went pending, then active, then pending and then active, now listing with the same price we offered 8 months ago. something fishy must be going on.

Brokers call that lead generation. Fake listing there just to get more interested folks contacting them. Common practice.

This all just sounds like bad business. I guess since you don't know his name, you don't know where his office is located? Or is it indicated somewhere?

Have a look at this article on buying in NYC (2007) for first timers:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/realestate/29cov.html?scp=1&sq=every%20penny%20counts&st=cse

Since you (OP) mentioned Ditmas, may want to contact Makeba Lloyd as a broker - she's mentioned in the article (Developer's Group, Brooklyn).

~Misstrial

Thank you-- Ditmas is actually in Brooklyn. The Blvd in Astoria, Queens has an "r" in it-- DitmaRs. We also have our very own Broadway. It causes a lot of consternation to non-locals. :)

(Ok, so it was a lowball-- but lord have mercy-- I am not buying "potential"

LETS REMOVE THAT WORD "lowball" from our vocabulary? Why haven't you ever heard the word "high ball" used the same way? Because MOST HOUSES THAT ARE SOLD ARE at THE HIGHEST possible price! Excuse the ALL CAPS...but the AZZHOLE REALTARDS ALWAYS "LOCK CAPS" WHEN writing their housing fairy tales ( OUTRIGHT LIES).

SO LETS AGREE? NO MORE USE OF the word LOWBALL! They don't use high ball...I don't use LOW BALL.

A LOW BALL IS an ARMS LENGTH AFFORDABLE offer that is probably still too high!

When I see blood running in the streets, coughed up by the lying sacks of excrement called "estate agents" , I will know that 'MAYBE" its time to look for a house. BUT IT MUST BE A REAL DEAL... THAT IS a COST LOWER THAN IT COST to build NEW!

Cars drop in price over time...so do houses. They are both made of stuff and made by humans and rot by either rust or termites.

This is a REAL listing...you should see what was in the Multiple? This is reality...and the millions of termites chewing the wood AND TREES attests to its "structural soundness".

Cozy charmer with open floor plan... SHOW AND SELL! I hear they ain't making land no more. Hurry while you can steal these deals...ask grandma to cosign...you can all move in here together!! And here is the gorgeous view OF THEY SKY...through the holes in the roof.

INvestor90, I like the way you think!
Infact, you are also a talented writer and humorist.
please keep posting

Let's see? You are making low ball offers and the listing agent and the buyers agent you are working with won't return your calls? Maybe they don't like wasting their time. DId you ever think of that? Why would someone pass up an opportunity to make a sale when there is a chance to do so. They are paid on commission..no sale... no pay. It is that simple. So it is obvious by everyone you deal with that you are not considered a serious buyer at this time or they would spend the time and effort to present your offer. If it has no chance of going through or bring accepted why do it?plus, as in many listings the bank will list it at a competitive price to create activity and offers on the property. Many times there are several offers on a well priced home even in todays REO market.

I am sure the agents are thinking this guy is a low baller and time waster. I need to work with someone who is more real and up to date where the market is. Simple solution...Make Higher offers closer tot he asking price until your offers are accepted. If you can't do that then no one will want to work with you.

mike2 says

I am sure the agents are thinking this guy is a low baller and time waster. I need to work with someone who is more real and up to date where the market is. Simple solution...Make Higher offers closer tot he asking price until your offers are accepted. If you can't do that then no one will want to work with you.

Well that certainly explains why the final sales prices for 2-3 years now are 20-30-50% lower than peak years. It appears that someone is making these lowball offers and actually winning.

Ok how do you explain the same home being sold for much less?

See the down low on all of this again is COST fixing. Illegal by court rulings they do it all day long and no one gives a crap. Walk into a neighborhood all the dissimilar houses the same in what they want for them. Same for the builder across the street and down the road in the same area. Once again most people think its a big game. But those fixing rulings were fairly serious. Now well the people that run things say so what let's play a new game. Leaving everyone as dizzy as they are.

True what it really boils down to is you can give what you want for it. You can ask what you want. In that regard ask for what you want a realtor may not list it if she or he dosen't like the asking. Basically. Its your house. So what you want is up to you NOT anyone else. What you will give is up to YOU not anyone else. See. Ignore the rest of the bullshit. You give or want not anyone else. See. Your in control. Not bullshit. Go that route well you can be as choosey as you want. Go the bullshit route and your an all day sucker.

thomas.wong1986 says

Well that certainly explains why the final sales prices for 2-3 years now are 20-30-50% lower than peak years.

That is actually what brought me out of hiding and making an offer-- a house that was listed at 950k went for 600k. I should also note for the non-locals that just about every house listing has the word "negotiable" after the price. So... I have no idea how negotiable a price is until I attempt to negotiate... Since it seems to be a number/amount unique to each seller/situation.

I've been looking for a house for about 9 years. I'm extremely qualified, have cash and don't need to sell a house first. Over this time I've learned that the real estate market is corrupt, dirty and full of cronyism. I'm also only privy to houses that the realtors, builders, appraisers, bankers, contractors, and their friends and families don't want. Those on the inside got away with this for many years because even their crumbs increased in price over time but now that the market has been exposed for what it really is, the worm has turned. Of course there are exceptions and there are honest realtors but the odds are against us. Good luck.

there was a condo for sale 9/10 asking $90 (I knew it was worth that). Icalled.realtor told me it was sold for $35 to her dad. I said "find me one like that!" none of them ever do! today its on the market again asking $90.

sleazy relators keep the good ones.

PC says

there was a condo for sale 9/10 asking $90 (I knew it was worth that). Icalled.realtor told me it was sold for $35 to her dad. I said "find me one like that!" none of them ever do! today its on the market again asking $90.

sleazy relators keep the good ones.

Why not buy it now at $90? I thought that's what you wanted?

Aliag: We're sort of dealing with the same mentality with agents here on LI. My ex & I bought a house 20 yrs ago, and it was a cake walk compared to now. It seems like they don't want our business. We have not given any low ball offers. But have given what appears to be unreasonable requests, like finding a house with...gasp..more than 1 bath, a garage, basement, decent size rooms, and the dreaded built in pool. For the going rate of what a house calls for in the areas we are looking in. We initially used an old high school friend as our agent, and she had too many personal problems to keep on top of things. Then we started just using the listing agents to show houses. We thought we found "the one" after looking for a buyers agent, but after I told him the 2nd house he showed us had too small of a master bedroom (it really was small), he stopped calling! I don't get it. We've waited out the market for 10 yrs now, and are looking for a house on LI, where I've lived all my life. The realtors just seem so damn passive, it's driving me nuts. I'm assuming they are all part timers and real estate is their second career, and they could give a crap about selling a house. I can't believe what you get (or don't get) for your money in Astoria. That is crazy.

We've also chased down houses that were taken on & off the market multiple times - offering what they were asking, and getting no response. As well as seeing just really strange listings - houses that were listed for months or years on end with only 1 pic. And put in an offer on a short sale for (again gasp!) $20K less than the listing price. They turned us down, and ultimately ended up a few mos. later selling it for $30K less than listing price. Baffoons.

aliag says

The stars have not yet aligned, I'm an ignorant foul-mouthed bitch who can't keep a realtor happy, they're all too busy shining their Bentleys to answer my emails, whatever reason suits my mood/ the company. Hellifiknow.

First of all, you're not just a foul-mouthed bitch... you're also hilarious. Have you considered moving to the mountains to live in a conservative Mormon community? I would love to add a snarky NY/PA person to our mix...

But since you're dead set on living where you'd like to, you should be snarky and bring your friends to open houses, etc. You need to find a realtor who is interested in you, or someone who wants to sell by owner. Do they exist out there?

@aliag: Wow, 699K for that yuck? OMG... Long Island is one of those markets that needs a serious wake up call! I think one of the problems is that NY state is so slow in correcting the ridiculous insulting-to-me bubble prices. In states like AZ, FL I would have no reason to discuss this anymore... done deal. I can get something 3x as nice for 1/4th the price. But here's the real kicker... the realtors here on LI will call it an "insulting" offer when the self-induced greed bubble was originally insulting to me... that is the moral issue at hand. There are pent up buyers here on LI like me who are willing to spend but *NOT* pay the price for being a smart saver and a smart shopper! and prices should come down b/c taxes are highest in the nation...

@aliag

It's always a buyers market. Without you, there is no sale. Present a written contract ,a period time for acceptance,a closing date & other stipulations.
Make sure all your paperwork is in order. Don't extent the contract.
If the agents,banks, attorneys,ETC.,ETC.,ETC,can't do their job in a timely fashion there will be no sale.

NEVER HAVE AN EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT TO A HOUSE or any material good, it can skew one's common sense.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2011/08/five-rules-to-remember-when-dealing.html

A bigger picture? Don't think you will have a problem with the language.

http://shoqvalue.com/george-carlin-on-the-american-dream-with-transcript

I'd expect to get frustrated today trying to buy a house. Prices are declining and sellers don't want to face that fact. Getting a good deal is going to involve making a lot of offers and getting a lot of rejections, but that beats the alternative of giving a delusional seller the bubble price they think they should get.

But you also have to be realistic. Some offers just aren't worth making. If a seller is completely unrealistic with their listing price your offer isn't going to wake them up. That's why my wife and I gave up in our house search. Prices started going up with the tax credit and we decided to step out of the mania. Things have turned around since then but we're still expecting new lows in our area.

Seems like what happens over and over is how emotions get mixed up with market forces. What a house will sell for is simple supply and demand. If there is a willing seller and a willing buyer even if that buyer or seller is shady, stupid, greedy, emotional - whatever human behavior applies - the sale can take place. The folks on this board who are trying to be logical, rational and knowledgeable and as unemotional as possible are stuck dealing with all the other emotional and/or stupid shady people who over pay or the greedies who won't sell till they see their price.

I personally think all the smarties like the buyers who post on this board with the 20% down and patient analysis of the market is still competing with the others who have been patiently waiting but they are just a little less patient than you. Once the market rids itself of the less patient buyers with money then what is left can be divvied up.

However, the market is probably too dynamic for an equilibrium to settle out and allow for perfection - perfectly balanced supply and demand and rational market players. In the meantime continue to be patient and play the numbers game like the sales people (of regular stuff, not houses) do. Dialing for dollars they call it ...keep calling the potential buyers until someone eventually buys. Same on the other side as a buyer..watching those listings till the right one comes along.

Similar to employment market? Some people will take a lower salary and be more qualified. The worker is giving more worth than money and the employer is getting more worth than they are paying for. Houses can be similar - some get more than it's worth and some get less. Worth being the highly subjective term.

Personally I think the market will never be perfect and transparent without places where humans can game the system. Maybe once Patrick dominates the market with his new tool we can find out that there are 1000 qualified buyers for the neighborhoods with 940 houses available for sale. Then you know you have to beat out 60 of them.

We need a housing market with no realtors. People are tired of the games. It is only a matter of time before this "profession" is obsolete.

I agree with you fourplex! I have been doing all the footwork (finding listings). Which is fine with me, because we don't have the time to be lead around on a leash by an agent being shown houses that don't even fit the criteria.

@investor90
I've been using OVERPRICED. Like your phrase better. "HIGH BALL"

For the $23,322 per year in property taxes, they would have to give me the house.

In previous recessions/ housing corrections, NYC lagged behind both in the initial drop and the eventual rise. (No clear reason-- we're just that special) ...Just one more reason I'm not in a huge hurry to meet the seller's list price...

Philistine says

When it takes an hour subway ride to commute to your Manhattan job and you pay 2500/mo to rent what amounts to A Compromise, you become mean and lose your looks.

...this just makes me giggle, every time i read it... quoted for truth and giggles...

(and thank you elliemae for your good wishes and others for points to think about... i am still not sure how we will respond to the realtor. it has occurred to me in the last 24 hours that we could just say, "and we look forward to speaking with you when the sellers drop their list price..." but i'm not sure i'm ready to end the conversation just yet... this is so very educational! whee!)

I don't know NY real estate, but I agree with Greg and Mike2. Honey, you're "hostile." Maybe you have a right to be, but nobody wants to work with hostile, and everybody can see hostile coming. Hostile makes everybody unhappy in transactions. More importantly, every Realtor knows that hostile doesn't close transactions. And if the market is as incestuous as you say it is, believe me, your reputation is preceeding you.

Suggestion: take a break. Go on with your life. Prices are not likely to go up in the next year. Then, maybe, if you think you can do it without making everybody, including yourself, miserable, look for a home again.

sfvrealestate says

Honey, you're "hostile."

...and Punkins, you're patronizing. (Hostile? Have you ever even *visited* Queens? I'm being a fuckin' sweet-voiced angel, here.)

sfvrealestate says

I don't know NY real estate, but I agree with Greg and Mike2. Honey, you're "hostile." Maybe you have a right to be, but nobody wants to work with hostile, and everybody can see hostile coming. Hostile makes everybody unhappy in transactions. More importantly, every Realtor knows that hostile doesn't close transactions. And if the market is as incestuous as you say it is, believe me, your reputation is preceeding you.

Suggestion: take a break. Go on with your life. Prices are not likely to go up in the next year. Then, maybe, if you think you can do it without making everybody, including yourself, miserable, look for a home again.

sfvrealestate

If you go around calling every woman you don't know 'Honey' then they have even more reason to be 'hostile'...no wonder women have a hard time dealing with condesending realtors.
Hang in there aliag. I am going through the same crap on the West Coast and getting mighty fed up with realtors. MORE MONEY 'HONEY'!

sfvrealestate says

Honey, you're "hostile."

aliag says

...and Punkins, you're patronizing.

She forgot to call you sweetie-pie and girlie. The worst offenders are often women, as if having a vagina gives them license to degrade others who have one too.

sfvrealestate says

Then, maybe, if you think you can do it without making everybody, including yourself, miserable, look for a home again.

You're a realtor, right? Realtors are like prostitutes, you hire them to do a job and they'll do anything for that paycheck. If not, find another one that will lie to you and tell you what you want to hear.

aliag says

(Hostile? Have you ever even *visited* Queens? I'm being a fuckin' sweet-voiced angel, here.)

Do you know how to ask someone in Queens what the time is?

"Excuse me sir, can you tell me what time it is, or shall I go fuck myself?"

- I'll be here all week, try the veal.

elliemae says

She forgot to call you sweetie-pie and girlie.

you're right! i feel improperly chastized and put in my place. i demand a thorough setting-down!

elliemae says

The worst offenders are often women, as if having a vagina gives them license to degrade others who have one too.

Well, to be fair: she's probably gotten what she wanted out of the system (whether that's the real estate system or the patriarchal system). she doesn't understand why I am rocking her comfortable boat. plus, she probably thinks she's getting extra loyalty points agreeing with the privileged while she shoves "her own kind" off the boat.

...Meanwhile, I feel a little uncomfortable that the discussion went from Generic Realtors are Generically Pissing Me Off with their Generic Sales Tactics to "this particular female is particularly offensive to me as a woman..."

I don't know if that's my cultural "nice girl" conditioning or genuine feminist concern that it's become a girl fight. Funny, eh?

(yeah, that's why my stand up career died a quick death a long time ago. try the veal at elliemae's...)

FWIW, an update: Wednesday, the realtor de-listed the property. Coincidentally, that was also when we finally came up with a response we were happy with to the realtor's suggestion we raise our offer. So, after it was de-listed we sent an email saying we thought our offer was fair and was made based on the information we had available. However, if the realtor had more information that she thought was relevant, we were happy to hear it.

I expect the property will get re-listed either with pictures, with a new kitchen and without asbestos, or as a rental. Slight chance it will get re-listed at a lower price, but I am not holding my breath.

It'll be interesting to see what happens. Probably new pics, but I'll bet they don't spend much.

francophile100 says

This has definitely been one of the better threads in recent memory.

It was, until a realtor reared her head and decided to attack aliag personally. What was particularly hilarious about her post is that she said that no one wants to work with "hostile," but "hostile" money spends the same as any other.