patrick.net

thunderlips11 says

The Holocaust wasn’t organized by Palestinians, or Arabs, or any Muslim - so why are Palestinians paying for it?
160 years ago vs. 1900+ years ago. How long ago was the last Israeli state?

Why is it that some people on the left don't understand history?

The Palestinians weren't even a people until they went through the Arab/Israeli war in 1948. Palestine didn't ever exist as a separate country. It started as a British Mandate that included Jordan, Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. Originally Jordan annexed the West Bank when it split off to form its own country.

Today's "Palestinians" are really simply Arabs who lived in areas in Judea, Samaria, Gaza, and along the coast along side of Jews who have always owned land and have lived in the lands of Judea, Samaria, Gaza and along the coast in the Levant. Some people act like Jews entirely abandoned these lands. That simply isn't the case. Yes there have been more Jews in the diaspora than in Judea, Samaria, Gaza, and along the coast in the Levant since the Romans. And it's also true that the Jewish communities were small and very poor in the Levant by the dawn of the 20th Century. And it is a mistake to believe that there simply weren't any Jews living in the Levant after that time.

In point of fact, the Jews who remained in the Levant are known as Sephardic Jews. They have some ethnic/cultural/religious differences with Eastern and Centeral European Jews (Ashkenazim).

Arabs and Jews lived peacefully side by side in the Levant under various rulers, the most recent being the Ottoman Turks and the British. The Levant has always been a diverse area culturally and religiously. Muslims didn't kick out the Jews who were left in the Levant when they arrived and converted the Arabs in the area. They simply co-existed for centuries (actually for over 1000 years).

Even during the Crusades, local Jews fought with local Arabs against the Crusaders.

What changed was that Great Britain via the UN Resolution 181 promised the Jews an independent state while promising the Arabs an independent state too. The Jews were given lands they already owned in and around the Galilee, the Tel Aviv coastal area, and the Negev Desert. The Arabs were given the rest. The Jews were happy to get these small slivers of land to build an independent state on lands they already owned. What happened? Well, Jordan annexed the West Bank. Egypt annexed Gaza. Syria, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia joined these countries in declaring war on the newly formed Jewish State.

There was and never has been an independent "Palestinian" State. The Egyptians and Jordanians saw to that when they annexed the lands that the local arab population was supposed to use to create an independent state. As a side note, Jordan was part of the British Mandate of Palestine/Transjordan.

When the 5 armies invaded, the local Arabs were told to flee so that the 5 armies could wipe the lands with Jewish blood and drive the surviving Jews into the sea. To everyone's surprise (even the Jews who were now Israelis) Israel won the war. And they didn't allow all of these local Arabs who fled so that the 5 armies could massacre the Jews back into the newly annexed lands the Jews won as spoils of war that connected the lands they were promised around the Galilee, the coastal area around Tel Aviv, and the Negev.

Egypt in Gaza, Jordan in the West Bank, and Syria in the Golan Heights and Lebanon, all places to where many Arabs fled, didn't allow any of the local Arabs citizenship. They forced the local Arabs to move into refugee camps in Gaza, Jordan, the West Bank, Lebanon, and the Golan Heights. None of these countries would accept any of these local Arabs as citizens or provide any services to them.

The Israelis felt no obligation to provide services to Arabs outside of their new borders and chose to give citizenship and provide services to the local Arabs now left inside their new borders.

But, this thread isn't about the Israeli/Arab conflict.

This is about the mess that we created in Iraq because we wanted the oil and decided that we didn't like Saddam Hussein anymore now that the war between Iran and Iraq was over. During that war, we armed both sides and treated Saddam Hussein like a buddy.

We have done more to destabilize the region than any other country has, including Israel. The Arabs equate the USA with the former colonialism that created the current ridiculous boundaries because of our meddling and treating them like colonies.

All of the countries in the Middle East including Israel have suffered from the heavy handed influence of ignorant foreign powers that came in to interfere with the natural development of nation states. The problem lies with the old European powers, the UN, and the USA, not with Israel.

Wow, it's amazing the propaganda and lies that anti-semites have gathered about the founding of the State of Israel. This isn't a case of the poor Cherokees being driven out of their homeland. Not by a long shot.

Yes, Zionist Jews came to Israel joining an existing Jewish population that numbered 1000 families roughly who had remained in the land living along side their Arab neighbors. That is a fact. And yes, the Jews who were there already weren't the majority. That is a fact. And so what? They still were living there and had claims to the land just like their Arab neighbors.

During the Crusades local Jews fought with local Arabs against the Crusaders. They weren't immigrants. That is a fact.

The local Arab population in the Levant didn't call themselves Palestinians until the 1948 war. That is a fact.

And it's nice that a non-Jew can define what a Jew is since Jews argue amongst ourselves. Judaism is the religion. We Jews are a nation, people, and members of a religion called Judaism. Being a Jew involves having a cultural heritage and even matrilineal descent. We are a people. We haven't always been called "Jews." We've been called "Jews" since we adopted Judaism as our religion. There aren't any Jews in the Torah until well after Joshua. Before that, we were called "Hebrews." That is our cultural heritage. We also have a religious heritage. So, you, a non-Jew can't redefine what it means to be a Jew just because you don't like the implications. Most of us (besides converts) share common genes that bind us physically with one another. That is unlike the members of the religions known as Christianity and Islam. Being a Jew is also being part of a people, a nation, and a member of a religion whether you like it or not. (And for that matter whether I like it or not.)

And we Jews have never given up on Jerusalem or Israel. It's part of our stories as a people. We have always and still call ourselves Am Yisrael (People of Israel). That is a fact. You can find this in our earliest cultural stories and our earliest religious rituals.

And, you really don't understand the Middle East if you don't understand the negative effects of Colonialism by the Europeans and now we Americans. Yes many European Jews emmigrated to Israel because we actually have never given up on that land as our ancestral home. And you can claim that they are also "colonists." That depends on a political philosophy and point of view though. The fact is that the European Jews who joined the few Sephardic Jews who have been living in the Levant since there were Jews were promised a state at the same time the local Arabs were promised a state. It is a fact that there has never been an independent land called "Palestine" ever. UN resolution 181 intended to create the first independent Arab State called Palestine along side an independent Jewish State called Israel. That is a fact.

And it is a fact that the Arabs were allied with Nazi Germany because they wanted to stop European Jews from coming to the Levant. There were Arab leaders who regularly visited Nazi Germany during WWII. That is a fact. Many Arabs thought the Nazis were their salvation from this influx of European Jews. Read into this what you will.

Again, this problem was caused by European and American Colonialism. That is the source. That is a fact.

And, I don't believe that Israel or Israelis are entirely innocent. Both sides have blood on their hands as I've said many times. The problem with many on the left (and I'm a leftie) is that they tend to forget that the Palestinian Arabs have committed and continue to commit horrible atrocities against Israeli Jews too. It takes at least two to create an armed conflict that lasts over 60 years. Israelis and Palestinian Arabs aren't saints.

And now we've hijacked this thread to address your political agenda of slandering Jews and Israelis by rewriting history.

Let's get back to the topic at hand: The removal of the last US combat brigade from Iraq. I won't respond to anything else in this thread but that topic in respect for the OP.

simchaland says

Many Arabs thought the Nazis were their salvation from this influx of European Jews. Read into this what you will.

there were pretty prescient, LOL. If I were "Palestinian" I'd certainly have wished that Hitler's regime had finished the job.

This "let's not bicker and argue over who killed who . . ." schtick is understandable, but doesn't really concern us. The Israeli's problem of national survival will hopefully be Israel's to solve and not ours. I sure as hell wouldn't ask any US serviceman to die for Israel.

Tenouncetrout says

I met a couple from Burma in Malaysia while I was there.
They have UN cards, and are Political Refugees. God bless them they were genuine people, that whole country made me realize what we were fighting for. Will Iraqi’s appreciate us, in 3 or 4 decades from now, as much as those peoples in Indochina islands and countries do today?

What are you talking about? Burma isn't Indochina or even all that close. Why would refugee's from Burma care about the US fighting in Indochina 40 years ago? What people in Indochina islands and countries appreciate the American involvement in Indochina? The majority weren't even born yet. Since when is Indochina an island anyway? Have you been drinking?

Tenouncetrout says

The sick part was, we didn’t do it, to save those people from an oppressive fate, they so ill deserved. We were only there to put the shit back on the Ruskies and Reds. We could have gave a rats ass about those Villagers, as a peoples or a whole.

The core problem with Vietnam was we were trying to save the Vietnamese from themselves. You may think Communism is oppressive, but prior to their revolution the South had one of the highest tenancy % in the entire world.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/30171297

summarizes the situation as it was. We finally helped the Saigon regime implement the comprehensive "Land to the Tiller" land reform in 1970-1973, ten years too late perhaps but it did in fact help reduce what residual pro-VC sentiment existed in SVN in the 1970s.

I disagree with you that we didn't care about the Vietnamese themselves. Granted, we cared more about ourselves first, but my understanding is that we did what we could for the people of SVN, especially the 'Yards who got shat on by everyone.

The problem going in was that 40% of the population of SVN rather actively preferred the Hanoi regime over the Diem/Khan/Ky/Thieu regimes -- that was plenty to get a get a rebellion going. Just imagine if the Tea Party twirps had 40% support -- we'd be in coast-to-coast Ruby Ridge, OKC bombing, and Waco situations weekly (assuming Obama had banned the Tea Party like Diem & Thieu banned the non-nationalists in SVN, of course).

We could have won in Vietnam, but it was a tough board position that Kennedy started from in '61. As a quasi-client state of both Russia and China, NVN had immense -- bottomless, really -- resources at its call to meet our escalations head-on. The best strategy would have been to stay the f--- out of their civil war, but the bizarre geography of SVN and total ineptitude of the GVN demanded that we move in to help secure the various outlying regions (especially Hue, Danang, Qui Nhon, Pleiku) from outright VC takeover.

That we did, but the more we moved into the South, the more regulars the NVN deployed South to match us. We needed to interdict this movement, but logistically we just didn't have the resources to both fight in the interior and establish and man a proper DMZ in the north, to and through Laos.

Nobody wants foreign troops rooting through their shit, so the more we deployed, the weaker our strategic messaging became. We looked like the French, and ARVN was run by mostly French-trained officers, so it didn't take much propaganda to convince the average Joe that the VC was fighting for true national independence, the same fight they had thought they won in 1954.

Convincing Vietnamese farmboys to die for the Saigon regime was a non-starter, really. The townspeople were more GVN-oriented, but they were also the comfortable middle class and thus preferred dodging their military duties and letting someone else fight their war for them.

Vietnam was a real f---ed up war. I've read linear feet of histories on it, but I know I don't know anything about it, just some facts and the general flow of events.

Nomograph says

Give him a break. Being wrong is difficult to accept, and denial is actually the first step toward acceptance.

Agreed. Despite nothing actually changing, it will take the Democrats a while to realize that their dear leaders are making the exact same mistakes as the Republicans before them. But you know, anyone who says Obama is making mistakes must be a redneck, bible thumping, white sheet wearing, inbred, truck-driving, racist. If not, why would the news keep showing pictures of all those crazy tea-partiers?

Nomo, you drink the Democrat propoganda koollade, then try to point out when others aren't thinking rationally--all while pulling the self-rightous routine regarding your rational reasoning skills. Your ego is standing squarely in the way of your brain functioning properly.

simchaland says

We Jews are a nation, people, and members of a religion called Judaism.

The gene's of the average Jew shouldn't be part of the discussion, but unfortunately the Israelis (the Arabs do the same thing) try to gain their legitimacy from such nonsensical discussion so...
No one is denying that Jews are part of an international Jewish community. There is some direct Hebrew lineage amongst the Sephardic jews. Do recall that the Arabs are also directly related to the Hebrews. The Arabs and Sephardics are both semites, and most likely have incredibly similar gene pools. The Ashkenazi jews, however, are of a different lineage. They are the "converts" you speak of. Roughly 80% of the world's Jews are Ashkenazi.

simchaland says

We have always and still call ourselves Am Yisrael (People of Israel).

That's a self-serving translation of Yisrael, which is typically considered to refer to the Jewish people in diaspora, rather than in relation to any country. Besides, I think Thunder is on to something. The Lacota have a more reasonable claim to South Dakota than the Israeli's have to Israel.

simchaland says

And we Jews have never given up on Jerusalem or Israel. It’s part of our stories as a people.

Sure, but neither have about a dozen other cultural groups. The original terrorists groups that later became the IDF forced the local Arabs out of their homes at gunpoint, stole their lands, and literally gave their houses, farms, business, and communities away to any Jew willing to move to Israel--all in an attempt to gain a demographic advantage. The arabs who lived there are justifiably pissed off. Just like the Jews have not given up on Jerusalem, neither will the Palestinians.

CBOEtrader says

Agreed. Despite nothing actually changing, it will take the Democrats a while to realize that their dear leaders are making the exact same mistakes as the Republicans before them. But you know, anyone who says Obama is making mistakes must be a redneck, bible thumping, white sheet wearing, inbred, truck-driving, racist. If not, why would the news keep showing pictures of all those crazy tea-partiers?
Nomo, you drink the Democrat propoganda koollade, then try to point out when others aren’t thinking rationally–all while pulling the self-rightous routine regarding your rational reasoning skills. Your ego is standing squarely in the way of your brain functioning properly.

That is utter and complete nonsense. Krugman criticizes Obama in at least every other article. Nomo has criticized Obama many times on this forum. Obama gets criticized from both the left and right--really, who isn't criticizing him???

Tea partiers are in the news precisely because/when they are crazy. Crazy people are always newsworthy. That gets ratings.

tatupu70 says

Nomo has criticized Obama many times on this forum.

I've been reading these threads for years, and have never read Nomo criticizing any democrat. He will quickly jump in to show when a right leaning poster is logically incorrect. He doesn't hold the left leaning tards to the same standard.

The old forum used to allow a user to search through an individual's posts. I once searched through Nomo's posts for the word "AM". Turns out, he used the term "AM talk radio" a few HUNDRED times, in well over 20% of his thousands of posts--every one of them coming after someone criticized a democrat. Only a few weeks ago I read him praise Obama as the most successful President at 1.5 years into his first term in US history. (This in itself is fine, as long as he can support the thesis.) Nomo quickly followed up with a handwaiving "all Obama critics are racist" remark.

Unfortunately, this is the norm for those who support the democrats. Marcus recently started a thread about racism, aimed at the racists in his head, who he labeled the Republican old white people. In well performed Pavlovian behavior, Marcus also accused me of being a bad Republican stereotype when I criticised Obama (anyone who has read more than 3 of my posts knows I hate Republicans/Democrats pretty equally.) Again, this is unfortunately the norm--and is also my current pet peeve with the democrats.

tatupu70 says

Tea partiers are in the news precisely because/when they are crazy. Crazy people are always newsworthy. That gets ratings.

Sure, and the democratic propoganda machine is loving every minute of it. In fact, there is evidence to suggest that at least some of the craziest Teapartiers have been democrats in disguise.

CBOEtrader says

He will quickly jump in to show when a right leaning poster is logically incorrect. He doesn’t hold the left leaning tards to the same standard.

Isn't it obvious ? That's because the left leaning posts are correct, and the right leaning ones aren't.

What, you think that's not possible ? Your insistence that the left and right are equally bad, equally wrong, is what is leading you to an incorrect conclusion here. Logically, you are only correct here if they are equally bad.

Get it ? You have a position too. The cool thing about your position is it makes you right (correct) and EVERYONE else wrong.

marcus says

Get it ? You have a position too.

Of course I have a position.

marcus says

Logically, you are only correct here if they are equally bad.

I do see them both as disgustingly bad, though not equally bad. The group that is in power is the one that is the worst at the moment. Right now, that is the Democrats.

marcus says

That’s because the left leaning posts are correct, and the right leaning ones aren’t.

Is this a joke?

You don't have to agree with me, but the Democrats are bad for the working class, bad for the poor, bad for the indigent. So are the republicans, for only slightly different reasons.

marcus says

The cool thing about your position is it makes you right (correct) and EVERYONE else wrong.

I agree with the people that dislike both parties...which is quickly becoming a larger minority.

Nomograph says

*highly* recommend

Are you advocating marijuana ?

Nomograph says

I also drink alcohol on occasion, and yet I *highly* recommend certain people avoid alcohol entirely. For whatever reason, they just can’t handle it.

Typical...
Ladies, Gentlemen, and sexually confused Miscreants!
I give you the Democrats.

Do what him say, not what him do.

marcus says

Nomograph says

*highly* recommend

Are you advocating marijuana ?

Would it matter if he were? I find many of Nomo's posts interesting & funny, but his position on the use of marijuana doesn't matter.

Unless, of course, he advocates it. I can then claim that 100% of doctors polled advocate the use of marijuana.
(if he doesn't recommend marijuana, he's merely ill-informed...)
:)

Nomo has Chided me on numerous occasions not because of the health ramifications, but for the moral reasons of breaking federal laws for doing so.

Don't you guys follow each other?

marcus says

Forgetting how little connection there is between ideology (or platforms if you prefer) and what politicians actually do, are you going to tell me that you actually have no preference ?

The vast majority of what I find repulsive happens within both parties. As a party, I could never support either. Not even a little bit.

Since I do vote, I will sometimes vote for an individual that seems to break the mold of his party affiliations. Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinic are obvious examples--though I disagree with both on certain topics, nor do I live in the proper disctricts to vote for these guys. I try to vote for someone that has a history of voting against most proposal, places a high priority on decreasing the size/scope of government, balancing budgets, decreasing taxes (especially income taxes--which are the root of all evil), and eliminating any infringement on individual liberty. These rare types tend to be libertarians, who call themselves republicans, or perhaps independants, but almost never democrats.

Since most races are a typical R v D, I often will vote for someone who's views I disagree with, IF they have a noticeable % of the vote combined with no actual chance of winning AND they are a third party candidate. In slowly breaking down the two party monopoly I am hoping that little by little, people will stop acting out the tired "don't throw your vote away" cliche.

I will also often vote against the guy in power, especially if his party holds too much power at that time. I voted for Gore and Kerry, then wrote in Ron Paul in the last election. Since I live in a democratic city and generally democratic state, this means I will vote for republicans quite a bit. This next election, I will probably vote republican, because the dems have WAY too much power right now.

I think we agree entirely that our government needs a major overhaul.

What we have now is the worst of all worlds. Two steps away from corporatism aka fascism.

What I want to see here is that everyone has a decent chance to become, and remain, a productive member of society.

I don't care how this comes about but am not a free market fundamentalist so I do not think anarchy will get us there. The eurosocialists, eg. Norway, Canada, and others, seem to have their ecosocial act together, but the central challenge to that is it's easier for a relatively homogenous nation of 5 or 30M to structure itself thusly than a heterogenous nation of 300M+.

America started becoming a centrifugal system -- a banana republic -- in 1980 or so. The current Republicans have greatly benefitted from the ~25M Know Nothings that make up the conservative Religious Right to destructure the US into a higher and higher Gini system consisting of a rentier minority and a screwed middle class and below.

Such critical mistakes were made 2003-2006 that I think we are running on fumes now and lack the political clarity or even bare economic understanding to right this ship. We're gefukt, right out of 1931 or Japan 1991.

Gini in the farm states isn't bad

http://illusionofprosperity.blogspot.com/2007/10/us-gini-coefficient-map.html

but we all 200M+ of us can't be corporate farmers with a productive 3000 acres and several million in working capital.

Non-pension gov't spending is $5.5T this year. Divided by $90K/job, that's SIXTY million people directly on the gov't teat, and another NINETY million people or so directly dependent on gov't employee spending. HALF the country is directly or indirectly dependent on gov't spending! Incredible!

Meanwhile the demographic tidal wave is turned 55 this year, and the medical sector is licking its lips at the prospect of getting its future piece of the senior care pie, since we've promised tens of trillions of gov't benefits to the baby boomers and the rest of America is going to have to pay the man, ie them for these goods and services.

Then we've got a defense sector that has tripled in nominal terms from 2000 to now, now notionally directly employing TEN million people ($900B/$90K), a rather healthy chunk of the skilled labor in this country. This is almost Sovietesque in its misallocation of capital and I think is going to really screw us down the road, just like the Soviet example of the 1980s.

Troy says

Very interesting that this index has China and the US ranked equally.

As I understand it, Gini is kinda bogus because it measures relative wealth not absolute wealth. I'd rather be a poor person in the US than a middle class person in China.

And if we were running a balanced budget I wouldn't care what our Gini was. But I think the rising Gini has come at the expense of running these huge deficits, perhaps we're over-incentizing rentierism by undertaxing it, either directly or indirectly.

Regarding Gini index, thanks for alerting me to it's existence.

Read the pros and cons on wikipedia. You can't do the same computation for different countries, because some have non-cash benefits such as health care and free higher education that are significant. Also, for example when immigrants are allowed in to this country ( or come illegally), it raises our coefficient.

Still, interesting.

tatupu70 says

Tea partiers are in the news precisely because/when they are crazy. Crazy people are always newsworthy. That gets ratings.

And oddly enough, they're also in the news when they are not crazy... Don't you recall a while back linking to an article about the alleged Capitol Hill incident as support for your contention that they were engaging in racist behavior, when in fact the article itself was nothing more than coverage about the coverage of the protesters?

If your observation that "Crazy' people are always newsworthy" were true, then the "crazy" behavior of left-leaning protests from the time of Bush taking office through even now would get much more coverage and analysis than it does. Example: Protesters referring to Obama as "Hitler" = racist, inflamatory, etc., enough to garner major news coverage in itself. Protesters referring to Bush as "Hitler"... No big dea...

Meanwhile, I'm still confused how, given the Status of Forces Agreement, signed under the Bush administration, Bush somehow had "no plan" but Obama, by largly attemting to follow this agreement (even if he deserves some credit for its execution) is actually his plan????

Paralithodes says

If your observation that “Crazy’ people are always newsworthy” were true, then the “crazy” behavior of left-leaning protests from the time of Bush taking office through even now would get much more coverage and analysis than it does. Example: Protesters referring to Obama as “Hitler” = racist, inflamatory, etc., enough to garner major news coverage in itself. Protesters referring to Bush as “Hitler”… No big dea…

Ah--the old left wing media conspiracy again?

Paralithodes says

Meanwhile, I’m still confused how, given the Status of Forces Agreement, signed under the Bush administration, Bush somehow had “no plan” but Obama, by largly attemting to follow this agreement (even if he deserves some credit for its execution) is actually his plan????

I guess it's because it wasn't signed until he was a lame duck President. Hard to give him much credit for it..

thunder .... this just can't be. You have made a huge mistake. The official members of the Obama Kool-Aid Drinkers (formerly known as Fainters Anonymous) on Patrick.net have reported "Mission Accomplished" and that all combat troops are heading home from Iraq. Please check, re-check and check again your source. There just has to be a mistake. Please post your correction ASAP. Thank you.

RayAmerica says

The official members of the Obama Kool-Aid Drinkers (formerly known as Fainters Anonymous) on Patrick.net have reported “Mission Accomplished” and that all combat troops are heading home from Iraq.

That actually occurred on an aircraft carrier in May 2003.

tatupu70 says

Ah–the old left wing media conspiracy again?

Who said anything about a "conspiracy?" Perhaps it has to do with the idea that humans generally can't overcome their natural biases, despite intent and attempts to do so, and that it just so happens that the majority of folks in the media have a very similar political bias... Meanwhile, I take your response to indicate that you believe that coverage of protests by those on the left against many movements vs. "tea party" movement coverage has been about equally fair?

tatupu70 says

Paralithodes says
Meanwhile, I’m still confused how, given the Status of Forces Agreement, signed under the Bush administration, Bush somehow had “no plan” but Obama, by largly attemting to follow this agreement (even if he deserves some credit for its execution) is actually his plan????
I guess it’s because it wasn’t signed until he was a lame duck President. Hard to give him much credit for it..

So you believe that what a President does during his second term does not deserve acknowedgement and that the following President deserves the credit for originating a plan actually developed and implemented in the previous administration? You agree that the Status of Forces Agreement implemented under Bush was "no plan," and that Obama essentially following the same was in fact Obama coming up with a plan?

Paralithodes says

So you believe that what a President does during his second term does not deserve acknowedgement and that the following President deserves the credit for originating a plan actually developed and implemented in the previous administration? You agree that the Status of Forces Agreement implemented under Bush was “no plan,” and that Obama essentially following the same was in fact Obama coming up with a plan?

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. But I'm usually pretty good at forming them myself--my wife would argue that I probably could stand to talk(or write in this case) a little less frequently...

Paralithodes says

Meanwhile, I take your response to indicate that you believe that coverage of protests by those on the left against many movements vs. “tea party” movement coverage has been about equally fair?

I think that people perceive a bias when the coverage doesn't conform to their views. I heard much the same nonsense when Palin was interviewed by Katie Couric...

tatupu70 says

Paralithodes says

So you believe that what a President does during his second term does not deserve acknowedgement and that the following President deserves the credit for originating a plan actually developed and implemented in the previous administration? You agree that the Status of Forces Agreement implemented under Bush was “no plan,” and that Obama essentially following the same was in fact Obama coming up with a plan?

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. But I’m usually pretty good at forming them myself–my wife would argue that I probably could stand to talk(or write in this case) a little less frequently…

You said:

I guess it’s because it wasn’t signed until he was a lame duck President. Hard to give him much credit for it..

I initially brought up the Status of Forces Agreement due to someone claiming that it was very "clear" that Bush had "no plan" and that Obama did have a plan. Given your response above, what words did I put in your mouth, and how did I misinterpret your statement above?

If Bush deserves no "credit" (or more appropriately, "acknowledgement" due to the original "clear" claim of "no plan") for the Status of Forces Agreement because he was a lame duck President (your very clear argument), then how can you give any President credit for anything, good or bad, that they do in their second term?

tatupu70 says

Paralithodes says

Meanwhile, I take your response to indicate that you believe that coverage of protests by those on the left against many movements vs. “tea party” movement coverage has been about equally fair?

I think that people perceive a bias when the coverage doesn’t conform to their views. I heard much the same nonsense when Palin was interviewed by Katie Couric…

And likewise, they don't perceive a bias when the coverage does conform to their views.... Like interpreting coverage about the coverage of something as coverage of the thing itself...

Faulty perceptions of bias (on either side) does not refute that there is bias. You may wish to cast this in "conspiracy" terms in order to discredit those on the right who complain of left-leaning media bias, but that in itself doesn't refute the argument of bias either.

Paralithodes says

If Bush deserves no “credit” (or more appropriately, “acknowledgement” due to the original “clear” claim of “no plan”) for the Status of Forces Agreement because he was a lame duck President (your very clear argument), then how can you give any President credit for anything, good or bad, that they do in their second term?

I find that argument to be borderline ridiculous. There is a clear difference between day 1 of a second term and the final few months when the next President has already been elected. To imply otherwise is simply dishonest.

Paralithodes says

And likewise, they don’t perceive a bias when the coverage does conform to their views…. Like interpreting coverage about the coverage of something as coverage of the thing itself

No, no, no. Who's on first. What's on second.

thunderlips11 says

Ray, it’s just two actors on the same script. I think it’s funny how the “Surge” script was used twice, once by Bush and now by Obama. Two different actors/narrators, slightly different backdrop/props. One is more like Jim Varney trying to be John Wayne and the other one has a kind of Morgan Friedman vibe. Both Parties are MIC advocates - except for the “Whacky Extremists” on both sides (Paul, Kucinich, etc.) I know they’re extremists because the MSM tells me so, over and over again.

I agree completely. Very good points. It's pretty amazing that the Neocons (military-industrial crazies) are still calling the shots and that the "evil" Halliburton continues to operate as if Bush/Cheney were still in office. To that, the Kool-Aid Drinkers are completely silent. The military-industrial complex, along with the mega banksters that finance it, control events and politicians. Obama is just like Bush, et all, just another puppet whose strings are being pulled by these evil people that make money off of innocent blood. Afghanistan continues to deteriorate with no end in sight (9 years and counting) and no one seems to even know why we are there. Obama expands this stupid war and receives not only the mindless accolades of the left wing nuts, but also the Nobel Peace Prize. Truth absolutely is much stranger than fiction. No one could make this kind of stuff up.

RayAmerica says

Obama expands this stupid war

He can only end one war at a time. You look at all the crap he gets from so many sides. People calling him a socialist, etc., all the hate, the whole fundy racist crowd.

And you thought with all of that going on, he would step up and end both wars at once, just boom,...done. Politics Ray. It's sad yes. But you and your hater friends were going to hate what he does no matter what. I am one of those who thinks he is on track to be a great president. That's right, I said it !!

tatupu70 says

Paralithodes says

If Bush deserves no “credit” (or more appropriately, “acknowledgement” due to the original “clear” claim of “no plan”) for the Status of Forces Agreement because he was a lame duck President (your very clear argument), then how can you give any President credit for anything, good or bad, that they do in their second term?

I find that argument to be borderline ridiculous. There is a clear difference between day 1 of a second term and the final few months when the next President has already been elected. To imply otherwise is simply dishonest.

I'm not quite sure what you are implying is dishonest, given your initial statement that didn't differentiate between the beginning of a lame duck term and the ending of it. To be sure, the Status of Forces Agreement was signed in very late 2008, but was being negotiated through the year.

Regardless, the intial claim to which I was responding was essentially (1) Bush had "no plan" and (2) Obama developed a plan. When looking at the actual facts, Obama "inherited" a plan - the Status of Forces Agreement - that he is largely following.

You believe it is dishonest to not differentiate when something was developed within lame duck term, but don't object to 1) completely denying that there was any plan and 2) giving Obama credit for coming up with a plan from scratch? Please clarify.

Paralithodes says

I’m not quite sure what you are implying is dishonest, given your initial statement that didn’t differentiate between the beginning of a lame duck term and the ending of it. To be sure, the Status of Forces Agreement was signed in very late 2008, but was being negotiated through the year.

I made no such statement. I'm saying that general acceptance of "lame duck" occurs after the election of the next President. Not at the beginning of ones 2nd term. To claim otherwise is ridiculous.

tatupu70 says

Paralithodes says

I’m not quite sure what you are implying is dishonest, given your initial statement that didn’t differentiate between the beginning of a lame duck term and the ending of it. To be sure, the Status of Forces Agreement was signed in very late 2008, but was being negotiated through the year.

I made no such statement. I’m saying that general acceptance of “lame duck” occurs after the election of the next President. Not at the beginning of ones 2nd term. To claim otherwise is ridiculous.

Do a Yahoo search on "lame duck definition" and many of the definitions linked from the first page of entries, in well known references, will also include someone ineligible to run for office again. This is simply a misunderstanding or disagreement on the definition of terms. There is nothing "ridiculous" or dishonest about it, so let's not try to escalate a flame war unnecessarily.

In any case, I was responding to someone who claimed it was very clear that Bush had "no plan" and credited Obama with the plan to withdraw forces from Iraq.
Your response to my bringing up the Status of Forces Agreement was that Bush deserved no "credit" for it because he was a lame duck President [presumably because the agreement was signed after 11/11/08].

Does this mean that Bush had "no plan" and that Obama developed the plan? I'm not asking you whether you made this statement, but since you are coming to the defense of someone who did, whether you agree with the statement. Do you?

What if the Status of Forces Agreement was signed on 11/10/08: would you then give him some credit? Would Bush have had a plan if the Agreement, worked on throughout 2008, was signed on 11/10, but had "no plan" if signed after 11/11/08? Does Obama get credit for developing the Status of Forces Agreement because it was signed by the Bush Administration during its lame duck (using your definition) time period? If No to all of these questions, then what exactly does "lame duck" status - regardless of which definition we use - have to do with anything?

Para--

OK-- Here's my take. The final days of the Bush presidency did see him change somewhat. It appears that Dick Cheney's influence had waned and other advisors had gained more traction. So, I'll agree that he probably did come up with a plan at the end of his 2nd term.

I won't, however, give him much credit for it. He basically had to be led kicking and screaming to that decision...

I think it's fair to say that the Bush administration failed in the Iraq war planning. And I also think it's fair to say that the vast majority of the credit for the withdrawl goes to the current administration. If you want to give some small sliver to Bush, so be it.

marcus says

But you and your hater friends were going to hate what he does no matter what.

This is where your crowd is way off in left field (no pun intended). I don't hate anyone. Furthermore, I don't know of anyone that personally that "hates" Obama. I certainly don’t. What I do "hate" is that this guy is just another political hack that has been packaged and sold as someone that isn't. It's a pretty lame tactic that any opposition to Obama, et all, is labeled either "racist" or "hate." This is the same tactic used on a variety of leftist causes and positions. Example: if you oppose gay “marriage,” you must be a hate filled homophobe. If you’re against affirmative action, you must be a hate filled racist. And on it goes.

RayAmerica says

What I do “hate” is that this guy is just another political hack that has been packaged and sold as someone that isn’t.

And this is where you go "astray".

Bigotry is the irrational and obstinate attachment to one's prejudices and intolerances.

You have no real evidence to believe that Obama and his administration is fraudulent, but since you have an irrational attachment to conservatism these feelings bubble out of your subconscious and become opinion, then fact.

You become a "hater".

We all have our own bigotries, I'm bigoted against money-grubbing Jews, urban gangstas that have been in this country all their lives but can't form a proper English sentence, Mexicans who don't give a shit and throw their bottles into the street, fundamentalist Christians and Muslims that put their religious bullshit before individual freedom and rationality.

These bigotries become hate when they are over-generalized and over-applied. It's OK to hate homosexual child abusers and even the gay parades featuring public licentiousness, but it's bigoted hate to want to exclude all homosexuals from public life and the opportunity to form partnerships in the eyes of the law.

The recent brouhaha about the islamic center planned for lower Manhattan is another example of bigotry -- hate -- in action. It is very ugly out there now as you haters have successfully been seizing the narrative.

Troy says

We all have our own bigotries, I’m bigoted against money-grubbing Jews

Wow !! What a revealing statement.