patrick.net

AmericanKulak says

LOL. Independent Media sure isn't Electronic Intifada, Middle East Eye, Middle East Monitor, RT, etc. or their "repeaters" like Ryan Dawson and Corbett.

My sources are numerous and listed, feel free to investigate anytime. But you'll wait until public opinion officially turns, then you'll miraculously start agreeing with me...

AmericanKulak says

There is no third side.

Literally the definition...
https://www.logical-fallacy.com/articles/false-dilemma/

Speaking of Vietnam, Israel literally used food as a weapon. Kissenger would be proud!

For the first time I heard a reporter refer to this as a holocaust. Genocide is no longer accurate, and with the picture I saw of emaciated children, I have to agree. From the third side...

AmericanKulak says

LOL. Independent Media sure isn't Electronic Intifada, Middle East Eye, Middle East Monitor, RT, etc. or their "repeaters" like Ryan Dawson and Corbett.

Yes it is.

It's not that hard to catch "news" in an error. Once they hit an error, and continue to repeat it, you know it's propaganda, especially if they can't be corrected. Anything that you can't give feedback to, don't waste your time on.

Here, you want to check the credibility of say, James Corbett?


original link

That's from Feb 24, 2022. Now do this, try to find anything that is remotely correct from 2022 that was on the propaganda box. You're going to spend weeks trying to find that.

What I sent you, I've not even listened to, but I'm going to do now. I'll find out how close on the mark he was. Corbett or his guests can and do make mistakes, but they don't like and they aren't consistently wrong.

Independent news, is the ONLY news that exists, and there's a lot of fraudsters in that space as well. I think Stew Peters and Alex Jones are worthless, they are only 50% pure bullshit, but still, they push bullshit knowing it's bullshit. Done with that crap.

Jones has been right on a lot of stuff over the years, and does have some really good reporters working for him(Watson). Not sure what's happened with his head, looks like he's retaining massive amounts of water..

Muzzies attacking Jews on Ramadan! Shocker! Thought Biden was going on about how special Ramadan is for Muslims and that Israel has to stop searching for their hostages in Rafah out of respect to the "Religion of Pieces"?

Is there a bigger bunch of hypocrites and whiners on the planet?
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-791437

NuttBoxer says

For the first time I heard a reporter refer to this as a holocaust. Genocide is no longer accurate

Insane.

Jew haters on the Right are just like blue-haired Leftists LGTBQ's totally inverting words and reality.

You're so far up the Israeli governments ass, you don't get the most vocal opposition to the Palestinian holocaust comes from Jews. I guess Jews are anti-Semites now too, just like blacks who vote for Trump aren't really black? You are literally running the playbook you claim to hate. I'd call you a self-hating Leftist, but is there any other kind?

You've excused the Israeli government's false flag against their own people. Ignored IDF shelling Jews from tanks and shooting them from helicopters. Ignored the reports from released Jewish hostages blaming Israel. Ignored all the first hand accounts of IDF and Israel government claiming responsibility for bombing hospitals, killing women, children, and international journalists and aid workers. Ignored the Israeli government documentation planning a forced relocation of all of Gaza.

You've ignored the truth, because that's not your side. For me it's the only side that matters. But you tell me, since you support the Israeli government so fucking hard, will I find quotes of you doing the same when they pushed four covid shots on the Jews? What about when the US government pushed policy's that encouraged my former employer to fire me to refusing to talk about whether I'd taken that shot? Or just name a single thing the US government has done to make your life better?

Gell-Mann Amnesia...

NuttBoxer says

What about when the US government pushed policy's that encouraged my former employer to fire me to refusing to talk about whether I'd taken that shot?

I'm sorry to hear that, brother. I came that close myself.I always insult medical people now when they say they can't give me certain information because of HIPPA. I say "I'm glad to see you're now following the law, especially when it suits you. Where was this respect for HIPPA during the Plandemic?"

Goddam motherfucking bastards.

NuttBoxer says

What about when the US government pushed policy's that encouraged my former employer to fire me to refusing to talk about whether I'd taken that shot? Or just name a single thing the US government has done to make your life better?

No one was ever forced to take a vaccine. There was no law about forging a vaccine card. None. It wasn't illegal. Unless you're IN the military (not a contractor) no one ever had a right to your medical records and you can fake them. They made a card, you fake it and hand it to them and go on about your day.

Think about the language they used. "Mandate" and "Law" https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/mandate#:~:text=A%20mandate%20is%20an%20official,conferred%20upon%20the%20lower%20court.

A mandate involves a law. There was none. You simply lie or fake the vaccine card. Which I did. I was fortunate to not be working so I didn't have to deal with it directly. I just didn't get any vaccine. Had to use it once or twice to get into things but no one would have known. What are they going to do call a doctor I pulled out of a registry and verify my card is real out of probably thousands of vaccines they gave out? They can't even give that info out even if I did get the vaccine.

It was one of the dumbest moments in human history. There's no doubt about that and humans succumbed to the bull shit. I didn't.

socal2 says

Insane.

Jew haters on the Right are just like blue-haired Leftists LGTBQ's totally inverting words and reality.

Yep, there is no genocide, Gaza Health Ministry (AKA Hamas) is full of shit, and the actual casualties for an Urban invasion is shockingly low.

If there was a genocide bodies would be piling up unburied.

All this supposed suffering and everybody dying but still holding on to civilian hostages? Something doesn't add up.

AmericanKulak says

Gaza Health Ministry (AKA Hamas)

Not the source, but I know you want it to be. I mean who wants to remember that you supported a Holocaust..?

Everyone has seen the photos of the survivors of Nazi camps at the end of WWII, it's time to start seeing the photos of these children:

AmericanKulak says

socal2 says

Insane.

Jew haters on the Right are just like blue-haired Leftists LGTBQ's totally inverting words and reality.

Yep, there is no genocide, Gaza Health Ministry (AKA Hamas) is full of shit, and the actual casualties for an Urban invasion is shockingly low.

If there was a genocide bodies would be piling up unburied.

You mean like this?



That's a dog eating a corpse. I got that from the "dead terrorists" telegram channel. This is what was written in hebrew:

לחבר שלנו רקסי נמאס משקיות הבונזו פגות התוקף שהירדנים והאמריקאים מצניחים לתושבי עזה אז אתמול בערב הוא החליט לפנק את עצמו בפלטת בשרים משובחת של נתחי נוחבה אל מול חופי הים של רצועת הכחבות.
לבריאות רקסי אוהבים אותך נשמה🦮🔥

תודה לgabriel zedaka על הסרטון המלבב🥰

And this is the translation to English:

Our friend Rexie was fed up with the expired bonzo bags that the Jordanians and Americans drop to the residents of Gaza, so last night he decided to treat himself to a fine platter of Nahba meats off the coast of the Gaza Strip.
Bless you Rexie love you soul נשמה

Thank you Gabriel Zedaka for this amazing video.

And here's another translation:

Our friend Rexy is tired of the expired bonzo bags that the Jordanians and Americans are dropping on the residents of Gaza, so last night he decided to treat himself to a fine meat platter of pieces of Nochava in front of the beaches of the Black Sea.
Cheers Rexy love you soul

The second one is a GOOGLE translation, notice they oddly translated "Gaza Strip" to "Black Sea", as if this were Ukraine.

At the end of this, you will understand the brutality of Israel, and I feel sorry for the dumb Jewish people going along to get along. I think this is finally a breaking point. People are archiving what is happening and that's no longer in the domain of "the authorities"...

Ham-ass doesn't give a fuck. They probably have a pool of deliberately starved children to parade around.

RWSGFY says

Ham-ass doesn't give a fuck. They probably have a pool of deliberately starved children to parade around.

Really? You mean a government that got 44% of the vote back in 2006 when less than 1/2 the population of Gaza was even alive, that is funded by Israel, that has its "leadership" safely hanging out in Qatar, doesn't care about "their people"?

color me shocked.

RWSGFY says

Ham-ass doesn't give a fuck. They probably have a pool of deliberately starved children to parade around.

The fighting would stop today if Hamas surrendered and released the remaining hostages. Even Netanyahu would not have cause to finish in Rafah if Hamas finally surrendered.

But all the Western Jew haters have absolutely no demands of Hamas and seem happy to see the fighting continue to the last Palestinian.

Why is that?

NuttBoxer says

Quick, run an IV to a kid's... finger?! Where the veins are! Pump air into it? LOL

NuttBoxer says

Everyone has seen the photos of the survivors of Nazi camps at the end of WWII, it's time to start seeing the photos of these children:

LOL. Give me a fucking break. Use some common sense, look how fleshy the mother is. Nice plump cheeks, normal volume in the fingers.

Gaza is top 3 in obesity for women - higher than the US, Germany, and UK for obesity - and top 15 for men, just a little slimmer than the average American. However, the average Gazan is about 15-20 YEARS YOUNGER.

Also, look at the IV. I know to start IVs as distal on the arm as possible but that thing is right at the wrist bone, if it's not just tucked under wrapping. Notice the bag is never in the picture so we can't tell if it's LR Solution or a blood transfusion or what.

Is this Gaza? Is this from somewhere else with a photo of a kid with a disease? Has the face been doctored or is it silicon like many of the picture's we've seen of 'babies' by Palbara?

I don't know where or what is going on in this photo, but it looks fake/staged AF.

My dead, vacant stare


Or may I should just close them so I'm not tempted to look around and blow my cover.

"Starving" Hamas fighters taken prisoner. Skinnyfat city.

socal2 says

The fighting would stop today if Hamas surrendered and released the remaining hostages.

No it wouldn't. More than 200 Palestinians were murdered prior to October 7th in 2023.

I'm sorry, I just don't give a fuck about this conflict. It's on the other side of the globe. Neither side provides any value to my country. People get in fights all the time. Let them duke it out. This topic is super annoying. Hamas prior to October 7 was lobbing rockets into Isreal forever. Isreal has had a lot of restraint.

The blame ultimately falls at the feet of Muslim nations and Hamas. The religion is basically barbarians running it based off a fiction character and book. Same for the Jews. Like I said, at least they have restraint when being attacked. Killing 1,200 people or whatever it was, not doing anything to Hamas deserves a response. So kids die. Your fellow Muslim neighbors don't want you. Let that soak in.

Hamas and Palestinians are the red headed step child no one wants. THEY could have worked this out. Lobbing rockets at Isreal is not working it out. It's going to be a blood bath. And people need to stop calling it a genocide. Palestinians have been attacking Israel before most of us on this site were born. This is why I don't practice any religion. Don't claim to be atheist or anarchist. I just don't fucking care. Let them kill each other over fiction novels. 20 people were probably killed over the weekend in Chicago.... Focus on home.

WookieMan says

Hamas prior to October 7 was lobbing rockets into Isreal forever. Isreal has had a lot of restraint.

Israel has been killing Palestinians and stealing their land, one house at a time, for 75 years. What you are seeing is a revolt, and it's actually the Palestinians that have shown ENORMOUS restraint, which is why they have lost so much land. It's only 10 million people. Without the US being involved, it would be easy for Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon to end this. The only reason THAT didn't happen in the 1970's, is that both the Russians and the Americans negotiated an end to that particular phase of the conflict, that and Israel stole nuclear material from the United States and now has nuclear weapons, the only nation in the Middle East that does.

richwicks says

WookieMan says

Hamas prior to October 7 was lobbing rockets into Isreal forever. Isreal has had a lot of restraint.

Israel has been killing Palestinians and stealing their land, one house at a time, for 75 years. What you are seeing is a revolt, and it's actually the Palestinians that have shown ENORMOUS restraint, which is why they have lost so much land. It's only 10 million people. Without the US being involved, it would be easy for Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon to end this. The only reason THAT didn't happen in the 1970's, is that both the Russians and the Americans negotiated an end to that particular phase of the conflict, that and Israel stole nuclear material from the United States and now has nuclear weapons, the only nation in the Middle East that does.

I'll say it for probably the 100th time. Who cares? We have cities with human shit on the streets, high murder rates, crime, etc. Who the fuck cares about Isreal or Hamas? I fucking don't. Let them die. I don't even care about the civilians. This never ends and I think you know it. It's not happening in my back yard so zero shits should be given. The Eastern hemisphere has been trash for centuries. Won't stop. Why care? What is anyone on this site doing about it? Nothing. Just bitching and giving opinions on something that doesn't effect them.

WookieMan says

I'll say it for probably the 100th time. Who cares?

Our government does. It's their top priority.


original link


WookieMan says

We have cities with human shit on the streets, high murder rates, crime, etc.

So? The criminals that run the government don't care about that.

What's the mystery here?

WookieMan says

Who the fuck cares about Israel or Hamas? I fucking don't.

The criminals that control our foreign policy do not care about what you think should be done or what shouldn't be done. Nothing complicated about that. They will go to war for 2 decades for Israeli interests, and let the United States be invaded across the border. You won't do anything about it.

WookieMan says

This never ends and I think you know it. It's not happening in my back yard so zero shits should be given.

Well, you pay for it. This would end, quick, if the US stopped sending money to Israel and put the Neocons that control US foreign policy into prison.

WookieMan says

The Eastern hemisphere has been trash for centuries. Won't stop. Why care?

The US government cares, and Americans won't do anything about it. They won't even pay attention to the fact that the US government has no obligation to the United States or US citizens.

You have no representation. The US government will spend a trillion dollars on Israel, and will leave people in East Palestine Ohio to slowly die. They've not even found the missing people in Maui. You see, the propaganda box doesn't talk about it, and since most people are subhuman zombies, they don't think about it.

Most people think exclusively what they are told to think about by the propaganda box. When is the last time you thought about what was going on in Syria? We're still at war there, why? Is there any US interest there? ISRAEL has an interest there. Why do you think we're there? And Iran is on the other side of the planet, why should the US care about it? But they do, Israel has a big problem - yet we have senators and congressmen advocating for war against them. See the problem yet?

I don't care... Not sure how much clearer I can be. No nation has the ability to attack us in any meaningful way. Someone nukes us they're toast.

I look at the US as a family. I don't give a shit about the drama elsewhere. If they want to fight and kill each other who cares. There's too many cultures on that side of the planet that it's never going to work out. Just let them do their thing. They'll be in perpetual war. Hell the Koreans are still technically at war.

Sure we get involved financially. I paid my taxes and so be it. As long as we don't put our young men into the situation any more. I can live with a gamble of tax payer money, just not our citizens. This doesn't end. Ever. We have a generally homogenous hemisphere with basically 2 languages. Europeans don't even speak the same language country to country. They don't understand Russian. Arab languages. Chinese. Indian. African languages. That side of the planet will never get along. No point in caring.

We should stick to protecting shipping lanes and a few bases and get the fuck out of everything. When it all melts down without our kids going there, we reap the spoils. We should have never been involved in WWI or II. Or Vietnam. Or Korea. Or Iraq. Or Afghanistan. I think we'd agree there. There's an entire continent on this planet that is totally shit.

I don't know. Don't really give a shit what our government does with Isreal. I don't give a shit about jews nor do I hate them. They're just people with a fucking fictional book. Blah blah blah. I don't get into fist fights over Lord of the Rings...

@AmericanKulak You're a disgusting human being, a sociopath, and a hateful racist. I don't care what's happened to make you so bitter, you deserved it.

Yes, this is a personal attack. Anyone who laughs at children suffering does not deserve decency.

socal2 says

The fighting would stop today if Hamas surrendered and released the remaining hostages. Even Netanyahu would not have cause to finish in Rafah if Hamas finally surrendered.

You keep repeating the same baseless lie, and keep ignoring the Israeli government documents where they outline a plan to force relocate all of Gaza. But I know you'd never call the Israeli government liars, because then by your definition they would be anti-Semites, so you're in quite a bind with your spurious logic right now...

NuttBoxer says

Yes, this is a personal attack. Anyone who laughs at children suffering does not deserve decency.

Do they not have parents? The photos posted are staged. Hook line and sinker...

Here's the adult thing to do, stop shooting at each other. Just came up on the anniversary of a friends kid that died that would have been same age as my oldest. They didn't adult and he died of a bacterial infection. 100% preventable. Adults need to adult. Kids will die. Adults will die. Choices have been made. They can change those choices.

The problem is both sides have religion. Reading fiction books has always been a problem. It's just a certain few that fuck up the world. Pick your poison I guess. Until Muslims, Jews and mainly Catholics can live in peace (they won't) this goes on forever. Humans are going to die. Kids included. You can have emotions, but you're not doing anything to get to the root of the problem. Religion.

WookieMan says

I don't care... Not sure how much clearer I can be. No nation has the ability to attack us in any meaningful way.

We've already been conquered and we are currently occupied. Why do you think we spend money and resources on nations that have NOTHING to do with the United States?

WookieMan says

Hell the Koreans are still technically at war.

You realize they were about to sign the official end of the war until Bolton put an end to that, by saying that the US would deal with North Korea using the "Libya model". The use foments conflict, NOW. That's all it does. We don't have foreign enemies, we have a domestic one.

WookieMan says

Sure we get involved financially. I paid my taxes and so be it. As long as we don't put our young men into the situation any more. I can live with a gamble of tax payer money, just not our citizens. This doesn't end. Ever.

You are simply incapable of understanding what is going on.

Ukraine wouldn't be in war if the US didn't overthrow it, and then fund it, and 300,000+ Ukrainians wouldn't be dead, and Europe would have easy access to energy and we wouldn't have spent trillions of dollars on wars in the Middle East, or be dealing with Israel, and Afghanistan wouldn't be selling our latest military equipment to every Tom Dick and Harry, if we just left them alone.

It's not just money.

The "refugees" that keep coming into this nation, our government created a good deal of them, through sanctions, direct war, and other foreign interference.

Whatever, it's pointless to try to explain something that should be immediately obvious to anybody but you can't seem to comprehend.

richwicks says

You are simply incapable of understanding what is going on.

Ukraine wouldn't be in war if the US didn't overthrow it, and then fund it, and 300,000+ Ukrainians wouldn't be dead, and Europe would have easy access to energy and we wouldn't have spent trillions of dollars on wars in the Middle East, or be dealing with Israel, and Afghanistan wouldn't be selling our latest military equipment to every Tom Dick and Harry, if we just left them alone.

Russia/USSR has been at war far longer than 2014. Are you serious? The entire 20th century all of Europe was at war. Fuck it's been at war for centuries. This will never change regardless of our involvement. We were at our most peaceful time in world history until Ukraine/Russia and Isreal/Gaza.

The biggest culprit in it all is Russia. US involvement financially and equipment wise is nothing. Ukraine was of no threat regardless of their government being overthrown. If they were they'd be demolishing Russia right now. They're not. There was no threat. That's been my point on this topic. They now have more NATO neighbors. That's winning for Russia and the fault of the US??? Russia could have just been neighbors. We could take Canada in days and we don't.

Let the federal government do what they want. Maybe focus on local and get the shit off your streets... Everyone is hyper focused on national and international politics and ignores what is happening in your back yard. It's the reason I won't step foot in San Fransisco again in my lifetime. I don't care about Ukraine or anything. I'd like to go to a once great city like San Francisco and enjoy myself without slipping on a turd and fall on an AIDS needle.

You CA guys are a bit blind as someone that travels. You guys stay there and don't do anything besides local. Get out. You'll like it.

WookieMan says

Russia/USSR has been at war far longer than 2014. Are you serious? The entire 20th century all of Europe was at war. Fuck it's been at war for centuries.

But the US hasn't been.

You can't seem to comprehend that.

War fucks up BOTH nations, and it's fucking up THIS nation. It doesn't matter if we're attacked or not.

The Swiss have stayed out of wars almost entirely. They have prospered as a nation. They allow people to come in, but they're not citizens of Switzerland. They have a high standard of living. That used to be the United States.

WookieMan says

They now have more NATO neighbors.

Which will just cost the US more money.

THAT'S why they joined NATO, of course. They won't pay for any of it. NATO is useless. It's been obsolete since December 26th, 1991. It's just money laundering, nothing else.

WookieMan says

Let the federal government do what they want.

This is an "admiral".



All this trans bullshit is top down. Department of Education pushes it now.

WookieMan says

You CA guys are a bit blind as someone that travels. You guys stay there and don't do anything besides local. Get out. You'll like it.

I've lived in 5 states. California is as varied as NY. Indiana was a bunch of religious nutjobs. Colorado was either FAR RIGHT, or FAR LEFT, no in between, Boston is a shithole as disgusting as NYC. NH is OK but I've not lived there, but I've been there a lot.

richwicks says

Palestinians that have shown ENORMOUS restraint,

LOL. The massacres began decades before Israel was a state. And they never gave a shit about Palestine, Grand Mufti Husseyn wanted the British to establish a Caliphate in Damascus that would include all the Levant from Antioch in Turkey to Lebanon, Jerusalem, Syria, and Iraq

The poster @WookieMan is responding to has had some interesting waffling on the issue. Previously on this board he's said he doesn't give a shit, but whenever the precious Fakestines FAFO, it's all crying on their behalf.

Many will believe the most ridiculous silicone babydolls or ex rectum Hamas death tolls that are out of whack with all sieges from Grzony to Hue City to Fallujah, but express extreme skepticism over pictures of israeli babies executed in their cribs by juiced up paragliding terrorists or burnt to a crisp, though the corpse was inspected by scores of international journalists, doctors, and officials.

NuttBoxer says

Yes, this is a personal attack. Anyone who laughs at children suffering does not deserve decency.

Yep, shooting and burning and kidnapping babies and raping kids is pretty nasty, part of the Oct7 massacre.

Anybody who supports terrorists kidnapping babies and shooting others is a scumbag.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/baby-remains-hostage-gaza-others-go-free-israel-hamas-deal-2023-11-28/

Hamas infiltrators seized baby Kfir, four-year-old Ariel and their parents Yarden and Shiri after bursting into southern Israeli towns on Oct. 7, killing around 1,200 people and prompting an Israeli military offensive that has killed more than 15,000 people according to Gaza health authorities. Kfir is the youngest of the 240 hostages Israel says were captured.

Reuters is one of the most militantly anti-Israel Western press agencies out there, too.

Oh wait, Dawson and Hinkle and the rest of the BS Crew don't really focus on that, except to display hyperskepticism for any and all pro-Israel claims and quick to leap on any alleged Israeli atrocity or staged photo or reused Syrian Civil War photo.

Also, fuck the Red Cross refusing to do their Job under the Geneva Conventions. The reason they are given billions of Global Taxpayer dollars to exercise their duty (it's a mandate, not a maybe if you can) to check on hostages. If this was PIRA or Tamil Tigers being held hostage as suspected terrorists, the IRCC would be fulminating if denied access, but Israeli Civilians, meh, can't risk the rage fallout from Euroleft and Twelvers.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-group-accuses-red-cross-of-biased-and-apathetic-response-to-gaza-hostages/

AmericanKulak says

LOL. The massacres began decades before Israel was a state.

Name one before Zionism was a thing, before 1900.

Palestinians are just responding to foreign invaders, which the US will eventually do, except even if you speak out against them, you're labelled far right wing fascist. Smearing people only works up to a point.

The Native Americans did the same, although their fatal mistake is they continued to war against one another. Arab countries are making the SAME error, Sunni and Shia hate each other more than they hate Israel or the United States.

AmericanKulak says

Also, fuck the Red Cross refusing to do their Job under the Geneva Conventions.

The Red Cross is nothing more than ANOTHER money laundering operation at this point. And the law.. Grow the fuck up. If we had any law, Hillary Clinton would be in jail and the Clinton Foundation would not exist after it was dismantled. Jesus, you think this is still 1980.

AmericanKulak says

The poster WookieMan is responding to has had some interesting waffling on the issue. Previously on this board he's said he doesn't give a shit, but whenever the precious Fakestines FAFO, it's all crying on their behalf.

Not sure what you're getting at. This is a useless portion of the world. If I had the nuke codes I honestly would melt them all. This will never end. They have no resources. Nothing of value besides Med beachfront real estate. Neighbors to the north are still in a civil war. I haven't waffled over a damn thing. it's a shit hole part of the world and will be for our lifetimes. Europe is a shit hole. Russia and China are shit holes.

There's a lot of lipstick on a pig in that part of the world. No different than going to the nice parts of Chicago, New York, Houston, LA, etc. I can still have opinions on who attacked who in the moment. Currently it was Palestine. Isreal has been an aggressor in the past. It's impossible to NOT waffle on this topic.

AmericanKulak says

Yep, shooting and burning and kidnapping babies and raping kids is pretty nasty, part of the Oct7 massacre.

The Jew haters are still denying the atrocities on 10/7 even happened despite hundreds of hours of videos from Hamas GoPros, CCTV cameras and thousands of personal testimonials.

But they instantly believe ever preposterous claim by Hamas and their Islamist allies.

Tells you everything you need to know....