patrick.net

Sunnyvale94087 says

I also think it's "more fair," if people's taxes (from whatever source) are proportional to the government services that they use.

Yup, which is why I said we should demphasize the "% of market value" when calculating property taxes and focus on people paying a slice of the cost of the services they get. Like you, I think locality matters.

I generally like people to pay for what they actually use (ala carte). When you socialize a cost, and make everyone pay a fixed rate and then receive the service/resource in unlimited amounts, there is no individual incentive to be frugal with it. However, sometimes it's the only practical way to charge.


lostand confused says

Why not look at cutting pensions? Hiring contractors for municipal work?? That should solve your money problem.

Those sound like really good ideas. But I think they're distinct issues, and aren't much related to how we should administer property taxes. Property taxation methods should be fixed/improved because they can be, and so should be, not because we have a money problem. I think any and all improvements we can do, should be done.


FortWayneIndiana says

That's kind of what prop 13 did.

Ya, and I think it was a good move. But, I also think prop 13 is starting to show it's age, as it hasn't grown with us quite right. I think in the near future we'll likely revisit our property taxation methods and make some tweaks.

I like your smaller govt + more privatization idea, but I can't say I agree with your idea that age 65+ should be allowed to skip all taxes on their primary residence. As I've said before, I do like tax bill stability, especially for old people. But, I think they can pay their taxes no problem at all via the equity in their home via a lien, if needed. Implementing your suggestion necessitates that we raise taxes on young people, so that enough money could be set aside to allow old people to skip their tax bill. But IMO this isn't a great strategy because the amount of money a given person pays into the system could be wayyy out of proportion to what they later get out of it, and clearly over or under paying isn't ideal. The world just makes so much more sense when the person pays for what they personally use.

People are frugal and efficient with their own money. People are wasteful with other people's money.

Hircus says

But, I think they can pay their taxes no problem at all via the equity in their home via a lien

People shouldn't go into debt just to pay taxes. Sorry we won't agree on this one. Government is a problem if that's what happens, and we don't need this government than. 65+ should be tax free, kicking old people onto the street is something our values and our culture stands against. We long ago committed ourselves to a stable society that promotes dignity and stability. We just have not observed those values lately with all the liberalisms going on around CA.

lostand confused says

Why not look at cutting pensions? Hiring contractors for municipal work?? That should solve your money problem.

Yes! We should do that. But even if, by some miracle, government were trimmed, Prop 13 would still be a tax loophole for millionaires. My proposal specifically stipulates that total property tax collected rise at inflation rate — I'm not giving wasteful government any more money in real terms.

Sunnyvale94087 says

My proposal specifically stipulates that total property tax collected rise at inflation rate — I'm not giving wasteful government any more money in real terms.

Even at current rates,govt find s away to pay their minions in pensions. I used to live in Alameda county-a clerk or whatever her title was retired with a 600k a year pension.

FortWayneIndiana says

Because government didn't need taxes from real estate, they just wanted it to give themselves raises.

Say so the same for the sales tax and income tax otherwise you are a prop 13 mega leach wanted to live on tax money collected (by the government that you hate) from slave neighbors to maintain your M++ $ life style.
If you genuinely believe in government waste. Talk about tax cuts in all forms, not just property tax alone.

CA is doomed. Liberals actually voted to keep the gas taxes and are now fighting to raise property taxes.

in IL home of some of the highest property taxes in the nation-the governor ran and won on raising taxes and got a dem supermajority. I think this country is doomed.

lostand confused says

CA is doomed. Liberals actually voted to keep the gas taxes and are now fighting to raise property taxes.

in IL home of some of the highest property taxes in the nation-the governor ran and won on raising taxes and got a dem supermajority. I think this country is doomed.

Or maybe they think this is the price to eject the middle class and have only rich and slave labor.

lostand confused says

CA is doomed. Liberals actually voted to keep the gas taxes and are now fighting to raise property taxes.

I voted for prop 6 (I think it was the only spending increase that I voted for). I didn't research it extensively, but my impression was that it collected tax revenue via gas and vehicle registration fees, and that the bulk of the money was actually spent on road repair/maintenance.

To me, this seemed like a great way to go. Like I've said many times in this thread, I think people should pay for what they personally use, in proportion to how much they use. People who drive a lot should pay a larger share of the costs of providing roads and related services than those who drive less. Gas seems like the perfect way to make people pay for the cost of roads and other auto related services because by taxing gas directly on a per gallon basis, the people who drive the most, pay the most (because the more you drive the more gas you buy).

So, I don't know if the money is spent properly, but at least in regard to the tax collection strategy - I think it's near ideal.

Why do you feel prop 6 was bad?

Hircus says

People who drive a lot should pay a larger share of the costs of providing roads and related services than those who drive less

They are already paying gas taxes. Some of this money is going to bart-whose janitors make 200k with pensions. Why not jettison BART's unions and use that money to run it profitably.
I live din CA and paid some real high gas taxes-how much si enough before liberals wake up and say enough?

I say same thing for all taxes.

So you barking up a wrong tree.

Blue says

FortWayneIndiana says

Because government didn't need taxes from real estate, they just wanted it to give themselves raises.

Say so the same for the sales tax and income tax otherwise you are a prop 13 mega leach wanted to live on tax money collected (by the government that you hate) from slave neighbors to maintain your M++ $ life style.
If you genuinely believe in government waste. Talk about tax cuts in all forms, not just property tax alone.

Hircus says

People who drive a lot should pay a larger share of the costs of providing roads and related services than those who drive less.

Prop 13 distorted housing market. Home owners fight blindly against new buildings and force new people to far and far away for shelter. Now driving long comes with additional penalty. I think 85% gas tax goes to train network.

Blue says

Home owners fight blindly against new buildings

That's a false generalization.

Hircus says

The world just makes so much more sense when the person pays for what they personally use.

That would be too fair. How are long-time homeowners supposed to get more county services for less if new homeowners aren't getting bent over a barrel?

There is no enough 'LIMIT' for left wing democrat socialists.....they will take it ALL!

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

Hircus says

The world just makes so much more sense when the person pays for what they personally use.

That would be too fair. How are long-time homeowners supposed to get more county services for less if new homeowners aren't getting bent over a barrel?

Increasing everyones taxes always makes things worse, however liberals always want it. Because to them tax increases = bigger handouts and pension bonuses.

FortWayneIndiana says

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

Hircus says

The world just makes so much more sense when the person pays for what they personally use.

That would be too fair. How are long-time homeowners supposed to get more county services for less if new homeowners aren't getting bent over a barrel?

Increasing everyones taxes always makes things worse, however liberals always want it. Because to them tax increases = bigger handouts and pension bonuses.

The world just makes so much more sense when the person pays for what they personally use.

Blue says

I think 85% gas tax goes to train network.

That's kinda shocking, and really disappointing to hear. You can probably guess that I think they should raise train ticket prices if they need to fund trains :p

Hircus says

You can probably guess that I think they should raise train ticket prices if they need to fund trains :p

The government should fire every government employee, declare bankruptcy, liquidate all the pensions by paying out (30 cents on the dollar, perhaps), put in anti-government-union laws, and start over. They costs would drop substantially and the service would be improved (because you would always fire the bottom 20% of employees every year).

There is so much wrong with the concept of government unions, I don't even know where to start.

Sunnyvale94087 says

The government should fire every government employee, declare bankruptcy, liquidate all the pensions by paying out (30 cents on the dollar, perhaps), put in anti-government-union laws, and start over. They costs would drop substantially and the service would be improved (because you would always fire the bottom 20% of employees every year).

Has anyone ever managed to rip a large govt program to shreds and start over with efficiency?

Hircus says

Sunnyvale94087 says

The government should fire every government employee, declare bankruptcy, liquidate all the pensions by paying out (30 cents on the dollar, perhaps), put in anti-government-union laws, and start over. They costs would drop substantially and the service would be improved (because you would always fire the bottom 20% of employees every year).

Has anyone ever managed to rip a large govt program to shreds and start over with efficiency?

Government is like a living organism, it evolves.
One good measure is to limit (how about max 300%) public worker compensation of "Gross Domestic Product per Capita" which is about 53k currently in US. At macro level, the total cost of government should be caped at certain percentage of GDP, this is very subjective/political/cultural etc.
(On a related topic the government spending is part of GDP calculation which is wrong. ref: https://www.quora.com/Is-the-salary-paid-to-teachers-considered-in-the-calculation-for-GDP-under-government-purchases)

Has anyone ever managed to rip a large govt program to shreds and start over with efficiency?

Germany, Japan, 1945

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

FortWayneIndiana says

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

Hircus says

The world just makes so much more sense when the person pays for what they personally use.

That would be too fair. How are long-time homeowners supposed to get more county services for less if new homeowners aren't getting bent over a barrel?

Increasing everyones taxes always makes things worse, however liberals always want it. Because to them tax increases = bigger handouts and pension bonuses.

The world just makes so much more sense when the person pays for what they personally use.

They've used my taxes for last 30+ years to pay for things that are only being finally built now. So not sure exactly how this works out, I've paid 30 years into the system. Your theory only works if what you pay in the year is built and used that year. But it doesn't work that way.

NoYes says

There is no enough 'LIMIT' for left wing democrat socialists.....they will take it ALL!

Exactly: they open with a sweet song about "fairness" but once the limits on tax increases (like Prop13) are lifted - watch out. Illinois will seem a child's play compared with what our own pinko fucks are capable of.

FortWayneIndiana says

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

FortWayneIndiana says

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

Hircus says

The world just makes so much more sense when the person pays for what they personally use.

That would be too fair. How are long-time homeowners supposed to get more county services for less if new homeowners aren't getting bent over a barrel?

Increasing everyones taxes always makes things worse, however liberals always want it. Because to them tax increases = bigger handouts and pension bonuses.

The world just makes so much more sense when the person pays for what they personally use.

They've used my taxes for last 30+ years to pay for things tha...

You're talking about how government spends your money. That's a different issue that needs to be addressed.

Cut the taxes, they’ll be forced to be efficient

HeadSet says

Has anyone ever managed to rip a large govt program to shreds and start over with efficiency?

Germany, Japan, 1945

Diversity has divided and weakened us to much to ever be able to come close to those kinds of accomplishments again.

No it’s same issue.

You want equal, go pay me 30 years of taxes with interest and than we can talk about paying same amounts today.

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

FortWayneIndiana says

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

FortWayneIndiana says

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

Hircus says

The world just makes so much more sense when the person pays for what they personally use.

That would be too fair. How are long-time homeowners supposed to get more county services for less if new homeowners aren't getting bent over a barrel?

Increasing everyones taxes always makes things worse, however liberals always want it. Because to them tax increases = bigger handouts and pension bonuses.

The world just makes so much more sense when the person pays for what they per...

MegaForce says

Hircus says

Gas seems like the perfect way to make people pay for the cost of roads and other auto related services because by taxing gas directly on a per gallon basis

But people who get 40 mpg vs 20mpg pay less. Electric car drivers don't pay at all.

It's the weight of the vehicle which wears the road, not the type and amount of fuel it uses. So Tesla ModelS should be taxed the same as other 4000 lbs vehicles, like Toyota 4Runner, for example. And, of couse, the taxes thus collected should be spent on the roads. You want a fucking choo-choo - let the investors pay for it and then recoup their investment from ticket sales. The fucking thing is redundant as it doesn't cover any routes not already covered by cars and planes.

Fortwaynemobile says

No it’s same issue.

You want equal, go pay me 30 years of taxes with interest and than we can talk about paying same amounts today.

No. The way government budgets work is year by year, funded by those annual tax revenues. No one cares what you paid 30 years ago. Someone new coming into your neighborhood was paying into a tax system where they were previously at. Paying taxes isn't like paying into an investment fund that you get credit for in past years and enjoy the residual benefit so that you get to pay less. That's not the way taxes work. Go look it up.

DASKAA says

MegaForce says

Hircus says

Gas seems like the perfect way to make people pay for the cost of roads and other auto related services because by taxing gas directly on a per gallon basis

But people who get 40 mpg vs 20mpg pay less. Electric car drivers don't pay at all.

It's the weight of the vehicle which wears the road, not the type and amount of fuel it uses.

I think what he meant is that my suggestion to tax gas doesn't do a very good job of making people pay proportional to miles driven, because electric cars don't buy any gas.

I'm sure one could go deeper into the analysis of costs, because even if everyone used gas and got the same mpg, I'm sure there's still other factors (like you mentioned - weight is one of those factors).

If prop13 was gone...

Long time homeowners/elderly would pay equal taxes to new homeowners/young families.

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

Fortwaynemobile says

No it’s same issue.

You want equal, go pay me 30 years of taxes with interest and than we can talk about paying same amounts today.

No. The way government budgets work is year by year, funded by those annual tax revenues. No one cares what you paid 30 years ago. Someone new coming into your neighborhood was paying into a tax system where they were previously at. Paying taxes isn't like paying into an investment fund that you get credit for in past years and enjoy the residual benefit so that you get to pay less. That's not the way taxes work. Go look it up.

Government doesn't spend that way. They spend many things over long periods of time. Major programs take years to implement and build. So yeah, pay me 30 years worth of taxes that I paid into the system with interest than we'll be paying equally.

BayArea says

If prop13 was gone...

Long time homeowners/elderly would pay equal taxes to new homeowners/young families.

... and all of them would pay much more than they pay now, no exception.

DASKAA says

BayArea says

If prop13 was gone...

Long time homeowners/elderly would pay equal taxes to new homeowners/young families.

... and all of them would pay much more than they pay now, no exception.

I disagree.
Prop 13 segregated population. If prop13 was gone, first it unites all and bring common uniform tax rather than new neighbors pay to old neighbors.
Then we can talk about the next topic of high or low taxes which is related but a different topic.
Until then prop 13 beneficiaries who own neighboring slaves never stop cooking stone soup and sell in the name of grandma, hating govt etc. and minting $$$.

Blue says

DASKAA says

BayArea says

If prop13 was gone...

Long time homeowners/elderly would pay equal taxes to new homeowners/young families.

... and all of them would pay much more than they pay now, no exception.

I disagree.
Prop 13 segregated population. If prop13 was gone, first it unites all and bring common uniform tax rather than new neighbors pay to old neighbors.
Then we can talk about the next topic of high or low taxes which is related but a different topic.
Until then prop 13 beneficiaries who own neighboring slaves never stop cooking stone soup and sell in the name of grandma, hating govt etc. and minting $$$.

Nailed it. Not sure what Prop 13 humpers don't get about this. They're obviously blinded by their selfish desire to get unfair benefit at new homeowners' expense.

You are just too ignorant about how taxes work.

You directly benefit from 30 years of my taxes. In name of equality and fairness that you propose, pay it up with interest and COLA adjustment.

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

Blue says

DASKAA says

BayArea says

If prop13 was gone...

Long time homeowners/elderly would pay equal taxes to new homeowners/young families.

... and all of them would pay much more than they pay now, no exception.

I disagree.
Prop 13 segregated population. If prop13 was gone, first it unites all and bring common uniform tax rather than new neighbors pay to old neighbors.
Then we can talk about the next topic of high or low taxes which is related but a different topic.
Until then prop 13 beneficiaries who own neighboring slaves never stop cooking stone soup and sell in the name of grandma, hating govt etc. and minting $$$.

Nailed it. Not sure what Prop 13 humpers don't get about this. They're obviously bli...

FortWayneIndiana says

So yeah, pay me 30 years worth of taxes that I paid into the system with interest than we'll be paying equally.

You’re mistaking the “rent” you pay to the government for the privilege of owning a house under their jurisdiction with some sort of retirement account or investment. You’re a renter to the government. We all are. Sure you paid rent (at vastly unfair low rates) for 30 years but you also got 30 years of home ownership out of the deal. I’ve had mine for two and already paid $19,000 for the taxes. I figure that’s about 10 of your thirty years. In four more I’ll have contributed the same amount as you have.

So there!

It ain’t rent, it’s investment into my city and state for future generations.

Just didn’t think future generations would be out of touch entitled brats that want everything free.

They want free, start your own city.

Quigley says

FortWayneIndiana says

So yeah, pay me 30 years worth of taxes that I paid into the system with interest than we'll be paying equally.

You’re mistaking the “rent” you pay to the government for the privilege of owning a house under their jurisdiction with some sort of retirement account or investment. You’re a renter to the government. We all are. Sure you paid rent (at vastly unfair low rates) for 30 years but you also got 30 years of home ownership out of the deal. I’ve had mine for two and already paid $19,000 for the taxes. I figure that’s about 10 of your thirty years. In four more I’ll have contributed the same amount as you have.

So there!

Prop 13 is fundamentally unfair in that some people pay much less tax than other people for the exact same government services.

Quigley says

FortWayneIndiana says

So yeah, pay me 30 years worth of taxes that I paid into the system with interest than we'll be paying equally.

You’re mistaking the “rent” you pay to the government for the privilege of owning a house under their jurisdiction with some sort of retirement account or investment. You’re a renter to the government. We all are. Sure you paid rent (at vastly unfair low rates) for 30 years but you also got 30 years of home ownership out of the deal. I’ve had mine for two and already paid $19,000 for the taxes. I figure that’s about 10 of your thirty years. In four more I’ll have contributed the same amount as you have.

So there!

Exactly. Prop 13 has created such inequity. No wonder Prop13-humpers are willing to fight to the death to keep their unfair advantage. Same reason the South fought so fiercely to keep slavery. Tunnel vision to their own selfish desires.