patrick.net

This is news? Affirmative actions been around for 40 years. You just figured it out?

I'm sure you will have some fun with this comment.

"The D.O.J. approved new scoring policy only requires potential police officers to get a 58% and a 63%. That's the equivalent of an ‘F’ and a ‘D’"

As a teacher I can tell you that test writing is tricky business. If you want to have a 90, 80, 70, 60, scale with 90 - 100 is an A, 60 - 70 is a D, etc., then you have to carefully ensure that there are an appropriate number of easy and medium questions. Usually college professors in serious technical subjects don't worry about that. If they accidentally make a test too difficult, then they curve it. Maybe the highest score is a 68.

It's either that or give out "partial credit" way too generously, with a very complicated rubric.

Putting it differently, if I make a test too difficult with all difficult questions, then there is no way for me to discern the Bs versus the Cs versus the Ds and Fs. That is I have to have enough medium questions that the C student can answer and the D and F students can't, and if possible easy questions that the D student might answer but not the failing student.

What does this have to do with this article ? Two things. One, the observation that a 58% is an F and a 63% is a D, is based on assumptions about the quality of the test and the agreed interpretation of the %scale (objectives). Two, it's easy to write a test so that it will have more results under 50% or less. I'll leave it to you to infer what you want from that.

I wonder how the percentage of black police compares to the African American demographics of Dayton (answer 43% of Dayton is A.A. ) ? Are there any advantages that have nothing to do with politics to having a decent number of black cops in a city that is nearly half black ?

Ray's not racist. He just resents reverse racism.

There's a GOTCHA opportunity for Ray in my comment somewhere. Hmmmm where oh where is it ? I'm betting he goes after my teaching. Whatever it is it won't be about the underlying point about ethnic composition of Dayton police. Nor will it be about possible politics internal to the Dayton police dept that may have led to this. 24% chance it's something defensive about his racism.

"According to the complaint, although the civilian labor force of Dayton is approximately 37 percent African-American, only approximately nine percent of the city’s sworn police officers and less than 3 percent of its sworn firefighters are African–American. In fact, according to the complaint, the percentage of African-Americans in the city’s fire department actually decreased from 7 percent in 1984 to less than 3 percent in 2008."

http://www.disabled-world.com/disability/legal/lawsuit-dayton.php#ixzz1GVExVFfq

marcus says

There’s a GOTCHA opportunity for Ray in my comment somewhere.

Why are you responding to rayray? If you ignore him, you can have a reciprocal conversation with many reasonable people. If you play to him, we lose the conversation and it becomes all about rayray. You ignore disruptive children in your classroom (or you 86 'em); either way they don't detract from the issues.

This issue that rayray raised is an interesting one - the DOJ has been around for many years and has filed many lawsuits on behalf of the disadvantaged. In this case, I can't find a lot of info about it without having to weed through the many posts of the white supremacists who stopped polishing their guns long enought to publish their outrage for the world to read.

elliemae says

Why are you responding to rayray?

I do have him on ignore, but I unignore sometimes if it's a thread I have commented in.

Posts are not affected by the ignore function, and my comments in this case are intended for people on the fence that might not understand this situation. That is, my comment isn't really even directed to Ray, except for the part that might make it harder for him to play his usual role.

He says this is radical liberalism. I think it's radical that in 2011 in a city that is over 40% black, with 37% of the civilian workers black that only 3% of the fire department is black.

A good question is, how can that happen ?

every now & then I do it too. I secretly hope he'll grow the ability to have a reciprocal conversation, with exchanges of thoughts & ideas. Then I wake up.

I guess I'm old fashioned in my thinking. I just assumed the purpose of test standards is to determine the qualifications of the test takers. In this case, a certain group of test takers couldn't meet the standards of the test so the "logical" solution is to lower the test standards in order to "qualify" this certain group of test takers that, in reality, flunked the test. What is important here for Obama’s Department of Justice is to achieve the desired results based entirely on the color of a person’s skin. Problem: not enough Blacks pass the test. Solution: lower the test standards so they now miraculously “pass.” End of problem. Everyone is happy, except for the non-Blacks that actually passed the test and therefore deserved to be hired, along with the citizens of the fair town of Dayton that will no doubt receive poorer service as a result.

The Army needed to lower standards to fill ranks too.

So?

RayAmerica says

I just assumed the purpose of test standards is to determine the qualifications of the test takers

When only 3% of the fire department is black, and 9% of the police are black, in a city that is over 40% black, it becomes clear that the purpose of the test is all together different than what you think it is, or think it should be.

I'm not saying that it's a simple conspiracy, but the net effect is the same. Again not that something this simple happened: Let's say someone observes that very few African Americans are getting scores on this test above 80%. All they have to do is remove a fairly small number of the easiest questions that everyone gets right and now very few of the African Americans get better than 68%. Who knows what the questions are or how the police academy or college fits in to this. Maybe there are tons of white men and women that study criminal justice in college or go to the academy and there really are just way more qualified whites. But what if it's also true that the community benefits from police having an ethnic composition that reflects that of the community ? That shouldn't be that hard to understand.

The corporate world gets it.

The powers that be determine hiring policy. If they are concerned about mission critical knowledge, they can have periodic tests that must be passed after the person is hired. Maybe tie pay increases to it. It's quite clear that not only was Dayton Police not making an effort to have an ethnically balanced department, they were doing the opposite in one way or another.

I wonder what the comments would be from our friends from the Left if the situation were to be reversed, i.e. "not enough Whites" passed the test and the standards were lowered in order to achieve the "desired" results?

Just thank your lucky stars you never have to take a test showing that you understand the comments of anyone trying too hard to inform you.

By the way, if you were talking entrance in to Law School or Medical school, I would tend to agree about affirmative action. But the police is all together different. They are interacting with the public in a unique way, and besides, for police, EQ (emotional intelligence(do you know what that is Ray ?)) is way more important than IQ. Not that a certain amount common sense and ability to learn isn’t required.

Are these tests even relevant to the job?

Here's a sample test for the Kentucky state police:

http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/pdf/KSP_Study_Guide.pdf

What is the value of 3xa^2 - 2a + 5 when a = 4?

How is that relevant at all to being an effective police officer?

Or knowing the definitions of 'imperturbability', 'laconic', or 'diaphanous', which are also in the test.

Officer Miller experienced some degree of trepidation every time he had to unholster his gun in the line of duty. Trepidation most clearly means....

Really? Knowing what trepidation means is important to being a cop?

I care a hell of a lot more about a cops personal integrity, interpersonal skills, and dedication than any of the above.

If the Dayton test is anything like the Kentucky test, it smells a little fishy, like it's actually designed to test things that white people are more likely to know, and that are not at all relevant.

RayAmerica says

I wonder what the comments would be from our friends from the Left if the situation were to be reversed, i.e. “not enough Whites” passed the test and the standards were lowered in order to achieve the “desired” results?

@RAYAMERICA

I cant give you comments from the far left but from the middle left.

I rarely engage in race baiting any longer since the days of BAP33 vs 13X but it seems the issue of race can never go away. I agree that test scores shouldnt be lowered, however, we should also extend as much empathy and support to lower income communities as we can to ensure they continue to grow their families in a positive direction. That being said, the black community needs to establish strong families and educational focus which will lead to a secure socioeconomic status so that articles like this dont have to be written. My family will continue to grow in the right direction whether your intent was maliciously aimed at pointing out the faults of black people based upon an internal subconscious dislike for us black americans or not.

Both my wife and I have degrees, understand the importance of raising our children free of negative imagery and express deep love for them. This is the level of responsibility that is missing in most Black households which has led to the decay of Black society.

Once we rid our society of the blowback (drugs, thugs, misogyny, bad parenting) that has resulted from slavery, then we will see a fair playing field for all and your point will be moot.

Clarence 13X says

Once we rid our society of the blowback (drugs, thugs, misogyny, bad parenting) that has resulted from slavery, then we will see a fair playing field for all and your point will be moot.

As a troll, rayray's purpose is to write incendiary posts and then personally attack anyone who responds. He's not interested in a conversation - and the valid points about the bias of the testing and the lack of diversity in the police/fire departments are probably fluff to him. I don't know many people who could answer the questions posted above, but they could build anything, carry 100 pounds up 10 flights of stairs and shoot a gun with amazing accuracy. They can problem solve their way out of many situations... but they couldn't pass a test with the questions above.

Hell, we have some (what appear to be) intelligent posters who can't spell worth a shit and their grammar leaves much to be desired. Doesn't mean they're not smart.

Some people read an article, then make up their mind. Others make up their mind and find articles to support their position - then post it on a real estate forum on the interwebs in an attempt to bait people into a fight.

To Clarence:

I agree with everything you've posted. Trust me, this is not "race baiting." I believe these types of practices cause an unnecessary division amongst the races and need to be eliminated. Every effort should be made to include all people for public service, regardless of their race, etc. However, the playing field for qualification should be level for all people, regardless of their race or social standing. I believe that is precisely what MLK was striving for; a society in which people are judged by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin. I personally do not know a single racist in my entire sphere. Like me, these people had nothing to do with the injustices that took place in this country and therefore feel these injustices should not be perpetrated upon other innocent people; in this case, the White people that took the test and passed. The goal in this country, in my opinion, should be equal opportunity. By lowering test standards in order to achieve racial balance is perpetrating the same type of racial injustice that was committed against innocent people in the past. We should be striving for unity based on equal opportunities for all. Achieving quotas by punishing innocent people should be recognized and disdained by all that seek a more equal and just society.

Ray seems to have a lot of outrage, I just have a whole boatload of "who cares?" after all a good Uh-merican should have a six-shooter and not need police to enforce justice. Police departments like all government entities should be small enough you can "strangle them in the bathtub". Cut their budgets, cut their salaries, zero the benefits, learn to do more with less.

MarkInSF says

Or knowing the definitions of ‘imperturbability’, ‘laconic’, or ‘diaphanous’, which are also in the test.

Officer Miller experienced some degree of trepidation every time he had to unholster his gun in the line of duty. Trepidation most clearly means….

Really? Knowing what trepidation means is important to being a cop?

I care a hell of a lot more about a cops personal integrity, interpersonal skills, and dedication than any of the above.

Come to think of it, if these officers are going to be working within black communities, shouldn't Dayton police candidate be required to demonstrate that they understand the culture, problems, and language used with that community?

“The NAACP does not support individuals failing a test and then having the opportunity to be gainfully employed,” agreed Dayton NAACP President Derrick Foward.

It sounds like the lily white Dayton Police Department needs to fix their fucking test and hiring practices, not lower the scores. Blaming the problem on Obama and the DOJ is the height of idiocy.

Perhaps they should take a note from the LAPD that recruits heavily in minority communities to increase minority test takers. Lowering the threshold for test scoring is stupid, silly, ignorant, and an attempt to play the race card so media stories like this get out.

The test should require an understanding of Black English Vernacular (you know, the dialect derided as Ebonics by racists). Cops who can't talk the talk shouldn't walk the walk. LAPD requires proficiencies in Spanish, Korean, and dozens of other languages and dialects.

Hey Dayton, join the 21st Century you imbeciles!

SoCal Renter says

“The NAACP does not support individuals failing a test and then having the opportunity to be gainfully employed,” agreed Dayton NAACP President Derrick Foward.

Very interesting. SoCal Renter quotes the local head of the NAACP and doesn't seem to understand that he is AGAINST the current practice of lowering the test standards in order to qualify Black test takers.

SoCal Renter says

The test should require an understanding of Black English Vernacular (you know, the dialect derided as Ebonics by racists).

I guess there must be a lot of Black "racists" because there were a lot of Blacks referring to "Ebonics" as a particular vernacular used within the Black community.

SoCal Renter says

Hey Daton, join the 21st Century you imbeciles!

At least those "imbeciles" know how to spell "Daton." LOL

RayAmerica says

SoCal Renter says

“The NAACP does not support individuals failing a test and then having the opportunity to be gainfully employed,” agreed Dayton NAACP President Derrick Foward.

Very interesting. SoCal Renter quotes the local head of the NAACP and doesn’t seem to understand that he is AGAINST the current practice of lowering the test standards in order to qualify Black test takers.

No, I understand that the NAACP is rightly against lowering the standards. That's my point too. The test scores aren't the problem. The test and hiring practices are the problem.

RayAmerica says

SoCal Renter says

The test should require an understanding of Black English Vernacular (you know, the dialect derided as Ebonics by racists).

I guess there must be a lot of Black “racists” because there were a lot of Blacks referring to “Ebonics” as a particular vernacular used within the Black community.

You misunderstand. The name "Ebonics" isn't racist, it was coined by Professor Robert Williams who is black. It's the derision now associated with it in much of the White community that I'm pointing out. This is important because:

Dr. Williams created the Black Intelligence Test of Cultural Homogeneity by drawing from a glossary of African-American vernacular and personal experience.[5] “Danger: Testing and De-humanizing Black Children” Though structured similarly to traditional IQ testing, European Americans scored consistently lower on the BITCH than African Americans. Dr. Williams did not conclude, as had white psychologists, that this proved the intellectual inferiority of European Americans.

I think Dayton needs a test similar to BITCH that accounts for community vernacular and culture.

RayAmerica says

SoCal Renter says

Hey Dayton, join the 21st Century you imbeciles!

At least those “imbeciles” know how to spell “Daton.” LOL

Fixed.

You're entirely missing the point, Ray.

The test did no have to do with performance as a police officer, and that's why they had to settle. The law in question is this:

Title VII prohibits discrimination in employment on the basis of race, color, sex, national origin or religion. Title VII prohibits not only intentional discrimination, but also the use of employment practices (e.g. written examinations and qualification standards), which result in disparate impact, unless the employer can prove that such practices are job related and consistent with business necessity.

Are you for tests that are not job related? That's whole reason Dayton settled the case. They knew they could not show their test was job related.

What would you think if the test asked questions about hip-hop lyrics that caused blacks to do better, even though it has nothing to do with being a cop? Would that be a fair test?

MarkInSF says

The test did no have to do with performance as a police officer, and that’s why they had to settle.

The test had nothing to do with the law you cite. Discrimination in the test was never even an allegation, so where you get this is beyond me.

Read the story ... in part:

DAYTON -- The Dayton Police Department is lowering its testing standards for recruits.

It's a move required by the U.S. Department of Justice after it says not enough African-Americans passed the exam.

Dayton is in desperate need of officers to replace dozens of retirees. The hiring process was postponed for months because the D.O.J. rejected the original scores provided by the Dayton Civil Service Board, which administers the test.

Under the previous requirements, candidates had to get a 66% on part one of the exam and a 72% on part two.

The D.O.J. approved new scoring policy only requires potential police officers to get a 58% and a 63%. That's the equivalent of an ‘F’ and a ‘D’.

Direct quote from the President of the Dayton NAACP:

“The NAACP does not support individuals failing a test and then having the opportunity to be gainfully employed,” agreed Dayton NAACP President Derrick Foward.

“If you lower the score for any group of people, you're not getting the best qualified people for the job,” Foward said.

Bubble Bobble says

These people recieve a book that goes over all of the required information on the exam. This is information that can and will save your life, and is not something to be trivialized, simplified, or ignored.

Actually, I don't think you know what's on the test. (Neither do I).

Bubble Bobble says

I doubt what you are seeing is a racist conspiracy, it’s that the people who don’t pass, dont study!

What we know is what they (the people doing the hiring) did not do. They did not find a way to hire African Americans who have plenty of potential to be good cops, to balance out the department as it should be.

They did not do that. Maybe this is an honest mistake, and it's not that hard to see how it could happen. Considering that being a cop is such a coveted job because of the huge government benefits, causing so many people to apply. Causing WAY WAY too many to apply. So how do they whittle down the number of applicants, so that they don't have to interview too many ? They write a test that is actually pretty difficult (that is that doesn't have very many easy questions). The test may be overkill, in that it ends up to a degree testing education level, beyond what is needed for the job, but it helps reduce the number of eligible candidates to a manageable level.

I could see this happening, and I can also see way more white applicants than black.

There are many ways in fact that this situation could arise without a conscious or even unconscious attempt to preclude African Americans from being hired.

Still, it is true that what they didn't do is find a good way to balance out the hirees, to slowly bring the racial balance of the department in to balance with the community. OR at least move it in that direction. (the fire dept WENT DOWN TO 3%)

And that is something they should have done, without going through this battle with the federal govt., which is insulting and misleading with its implications.

Ray, is this really that hard to comprehend ( ha,..as if Ray could ever consider such a thing) ? I just hope Ray is at least 76 because in that case I understand. Learning at some point, unfortunately, gets really difficult.

elliemae says

Some people read an article, then make up their mind. Others make up their mind and find articles to support their position - then post it on a real estate forum on the interwebs in an attempt to bait people into a fight.

Extremely accurate.

marcus says

Ray, is this really that hard to comprehend ( ha,..as if Ray could ever consider such a thing) ? I just hope Ray is at least 76 because in that case I understand. Learning at some point, unfortunately, gets really difficult.

Let's leave his IQ out of this!

I'm on the side of the President of the Dayton NAACP. Which side are you lefties on?

Direct quote from the President of the Dayton NAACP:

“The NAACP does not support individuals failing a test and then having the opportunity to be gainfully employed,” agreed Dayton NAACP President Derrick Foward.

“If you lower the score for any group of people, you’re not getting the best qualified people for the job,” Foward said.

marcus says

What we know is what they (the people doing the hiring) did not do. They did not find a way to hire African Americans who have plenty of potential to be good cops, to balance out the department as it should be.

ROFL !!! The Civil Service Commission administers the test for the Dayton Police Department. As governed by law, the applicants must pass the exam in order to qualify for appointment to the department. What "way" is it that you wanted them to "find a way to hire African Americans?"

RayAmerica says

The test had nothing to do with the law you cite.

Yes it does. That is exactly the law that was cited in the lawsuit.

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2009/February/09-crt-172.html

Discrimination in the test was never even an allegation, so where you get this is beyond me.

You can see exactly there what it alleges:

Justice Department Settles Lawsuit Against the City of Dayton, Ohio, Alleging Discrimination Against African Americans in the Hiring of Police Officers...

The United States’ complaint, filed in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Ohio in September 2008, alleges that Dayton’s use of an internally created written examination......resulted in disparate impact on African-Americans. The complaint also alleges that neither practice has been demonstrated by the city of Dayton to be job related and consistent with business necessity, in accordance with the requirements of Title VII.

All they had to do was show that the test was "job related and consistant with business necessity". What's your objection to that?

Mark ... the test given recently WAS adjusted in order to comply with the settlement with the D.O.J. This test made the necessary adjustments and was approved by the D.O.J. The test was then given, and there were zero Blacks that passed the test. The next move by the D.O.J. was to order the test standards be lowered in order to qualify Blacks. Precisely what the NAACP objected to. Had the CURRENT test reflected "discrimination," do you honestly believe the President of the Dayton NAACP would support the Dayton Police?

I don't think we should lower standards to increase employment. Standards are there for a reason, usually public safety.

Tests shouldn't be based on number of people passing/failing. It's there to prove certain level of understanding and mastery. I remember back when I was in high school only 2 people in our entire school passed the AP test for physics... but those two knew their stuff. If test qualifications were lowered, we'd have engineers that build buildings that would not be structurally safe.

RayAmerica says

Mark … the test given recently WAS adjusted in order to comply with the settlement with the D.O.J. This test made the necessary adjustments and was approved by the D.O.J. The test was then given, and there were zero Blacks that passed the test. The next move by the D.O.J. was to order the test standards be lowered in order to qualify Blacks. Precisely what the NAACP objected to. Had the CURRENT test reflected “discrimination,” do you honestly believe the President of the Dayton NAACP would support the Dayton Police?

I looks like you're right. Dayton already hired a firm to design a test that would reflect knowledge needed for the job. I think I have to agree with you on this one. I'm all for efforts to integrate society and give opportunity to those that may not otherwise have it, but this does look like the misapplication of a law designed to prevent discrimination.

http://www.ohio-share.coxnewsweb.com/News-share/Local_News-share/more-than-1-000-show-up-for-dayton-police-exam--1009296.html

Out of 3500 that applied to take the test, only 21% were minorities. I don't know what other cities have done in the past to deal with this situation. I don't like them dumbing down the test, but they have a problem if their police dept is 10% back and fire dept is 3% black. It goes beyond left vs right or political correctness. Police are a very unique city employee because of the way that they interface with the community.

Other cities have dealt with this in more intelligent ways.

Recruiting seems to be part of the problem, or rather the solution that they couldn't find.

Also, it's worth noting that lowering the test scores bar is lowering the standard for ADMISSION in to the police academy. IT should be easy enough to then maintain high standard for getting through the academy. It is sad that Dayton couldn't recognize the problem and deal with it as all other major cities have, without the feds feeling they had to come in.

Most major cities were doing much better with this kind of thing by 1980. What are they, Neanderthals over there ?

If the fed did over step their bounds, it's only because Dayton was so unable to recognize and deal with the problem.

And yes, not having a diverse police force in a diverse city is a big problem, as I said, because of the way that the police interfaces with the community, including of course the black community.

I really found the posts on this thread fascinating even though I wasn't surprised by their content. It took some time, but eventually people put their "it has to be racism" accusations on hold due to the fact that the President of the Dayton NAACP criticized the lowering of test standards. What I found fascinating is how long it took for that fact to finally sink in.

Quotas and affirmative action does nothing but provide artificial opportunities for a very limited number of people that benefit from such policies. What it does a very good job at is in further dividing, unnecessarily so, Blacks and Whites due to these unfair, polarizing practices. MLK had the right goal; level the playing field for all people and basically let the market take it from there.

MLK was a rarity. I haven't seen many folks out there who try to do that. Everyone just attempts to divide and gain market share. Even Obama for first 2 years kept on dividing the country riding the wave of discontent. It backfired finally so he is now trying to get back to the middle.

Ray,

Fess up, you have no sincere interest in Dayton Ohio police force and it's efficacy. All that matters is the conclusion:

"Just another example of radical liberalism at work."

Nothing new here. In fact many of your posts are just THAT, and work backward by picking out some tempest in a teapot to throw above it.

Be careful about all that patting yourself on the back you might take a nasty spill climbing down from your soapbox.