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By resistance follow resistance   2007 Sep 11, 1:35am 370,566 views   1,538 comments   watch   nsfw   quote   share    

Originally from http://www.faithfreedom.org/

A Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins

Dear friends,

The tragic incidents of September 11 have shocked the world. It is unthinkable that anyone could be so full of hate as to commit such heinous acts and kill so many innocent people. We people of Muslim origin are as much shaken as the rest of the world and yet we find ourselves looked upon with suspicion and distrust by our neighbours and fellow citizens. We want to cry out and tell the world that we are not terrorists, and that those who perpetrate such despicable acts are murderers and not part of us. But, in reality, because of our Muslim origins we just cannot erase the stigma of Islamic Terrorism from our identity!

What most Muslims will say:

Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.

What knowledgeable Muslims should say:

That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do. Those who blow-up their own bodies to kill more innocent people do so because they think they will be rewarded in Paradise. They hope to be blessed by Allah, eat celestial food, drink pure wine and enjoy the company of divine consorts. Are they completely misguided? Where did they get this distorted idea? How did they come to believe that killing innocent people pleases God? Or is it that we are misguided? Does really Islam preach violence? Does it call upon its believers to kill non-believers? We denounce those who commit acts of violence and call them extremists. But are they really extremists or are they following what the holy book, the Qur'an tells them to do? What does the Qur'an teach? Have we read the Qur'an? Do we know what kind of teachings are there? Let us go through some of them and take a closer look at what Allah says.

What the Qur'an Teaches Us:

We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur'an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).

The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (14:17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (5:34). And tells us that for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19-22) and that they not only will have disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire) (22:9). The Qur'an says that those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy (25:68). For those who believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be harsh with unbelievers, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a stern command: Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin. (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that it is good for us even if we dislike it (2:216). Then he advises us to strike off the heads of the disbelievers; and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives (47:4). Our God has promised to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself (8:17). He orders us to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed (9:73).

He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises boys like hidden pearls (56:24) and youth never altering in age like scattered pearls (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to take a green branch and beat your wife, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.

Dear fellow Muslims:Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue? When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said To you be your religion, and to me my religion (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103) and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance in this well-known verse Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah. (The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail all over the earth.).Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions? The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men. Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children 'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation The Life of Muhammad) page 675, 676).The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing free people to slaves and then trading them. With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the 21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by completely ignoring history. They are propagating the same old dogma for simple believing people in a crisp new modern package. Their aim: to gain political power in today's high-tension world. They want to use the confrontational power of the original Islam to catalyse new conflicts and control new circles of power.

Dear conscientious Muslims, please question yourselves. Isn't this compulsive following of a man who lived 1400 years ago leading us to doom in a changing world? Do the followers of any other religion follow one man in such an all-encompassing way? Who are we deceiving, them or ourselves? Dear brothers and sisters, see how our Umma (people) has sunk into poverty and how it lags behind the rest of the world. Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong? Hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, wittingly or unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw above those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate-laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in the Philippines, slavery in the Sudan, honour killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in every Islamic country. We are responsible because we endorse Islam and hail it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what the Qur'an preaches - and ironically we are the main victims too. If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the word for what happened in New York, then why are we supporting the Qur'an that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for the murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what the Qur'an asks them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are doing just that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it. We can stop this madness. Yes, we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes, we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes, we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book, and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Qur'an. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Qur'an the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war. Islam divides the world in two. Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytise and procreate until their numbers increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam. In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is abuse of the trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. Let us see what great Islamic scholars have had to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an into English wrote: Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon the fighting against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.] Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims. [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in the Qur'an and were revealed when Islam was weak. Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace? We propose a solution.

We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.

Arabic translation الترجمة العربية

See http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis and http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for more.

Please copy this article, and distribute it as widely as possible, both online and physically. The future of humanity depends on it.

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1499   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2020 Feb 1, 2:30pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Undercover Mosque is a documentary programme produced by the independent television company Hardcash Productions[1] for the Channel 4 series Dispatches that was first broadcast on 15 January 2007 in the UK. The documentary presents video footage gathered from 12 months of secret investigation into mosques throughout Britain

<>Dr. Ijaz Mian on the subject of non-Muslim laws: "You cannot accept the rule of the kaffir…[w]e have to rule ourselves and we have to rule the others."[3]
Abu Usamah saying of apostates: "If the imam wants to crucify him he should crucify him. The person is put up on the wood and he's left there to bleed to death for three days."[4]
Abu Usamah speaking on the deficiency of women's minds: "Allah has created the woman, even if she gets a PhD, deficient. Her intellect is incomplete, deficient. She may be suffering from hormones that will make her emotional. It takes two witnesses of a woman to equal the one witness of the man."[4]
Praises the killer of a British soldier serving in Afghanistan, stating "The hero of Islam is the one who separated his head from his shoulders."[5]
Abdullah el-Faisal: "You have to bomb the Indian businesses, and as for the Jews you kill them physically."[6]
Advocates violent Jihad against the non-Muslims and predicting that an army of Muslims will arise against the non-Muslims in England.[3]
Dr Bilal Philips on marriage with girls before puberty: "The prophet Muhammad practically outlined the rules regarding marriage prior to puberty. With his practice, he clarified what is permissible, and that is why we shouldn't have any issues about an older man marrying a younger woman, which is looked down upon by this society today, but we know that Prophet Mohammed practised it, it wasn’t abuse or exploitation, it was marriage."[4]
Condemns Muslim integration into British society.[3]
Calls for the overthrow of the British government and democracy.[7] "[T]hey will fight in the cause of Allah. I encourage all of you to be from amongst them, to begin to cultivate ourselves for the time that is fast approaching where the tables are going to turn and the Muslims are going to be in the position of being uppermost in strength, and when that happens, people won’t get killed – unjustly."[6]
Dr. Mian: "You are in a situation in which you have to live like a state within a state, until you take over."[8]
Al Jibali: "By the age of ten, it becomes an obligation on us to force her to wear hijab, and if she doesn’t wear hijab, we hit her."[6]
Dr. Mian praised the Saudi religious police practice of imprisoning people who do not pray: "They send the police, and they say, well, if you don’t come for prayer, close your shop, we will arrest you. But if you don’t, then we have to bring the punishment on you, you will be killed, and nobody will pray on you."[6]
Abu Usamah saying that homosexuals should be killed by throwing them off a cliff, stating "throw [the homosexual] off the mountain."[6]

1500   Patrick   ignore (1)   2020 Feb 1, 2:50pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Thanks for quoting these facts here @NoCoupForYou

I expect that page will be removed from the Wikipedia once the SJWs there discover it.
1501   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2020 Feb 1, 2:52pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Patrick says
I expect that page will be removed from the Wikipedia once the SJWs there discover it.

Got another one for ya about race. I gotta start organizing info, putting interesting shit in bookmarks is too hard to sift through.
1502   Patrick   ignore (1)   2020 Feb 2, 7:00pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      


Streatham terror attacker Sudesh Amman had just been released from prison
The 20-year-old attacker was released from jail last month after serving time for sharing extremist material. ...

Terrorist in fake bomb vest stabs two on high street before being shot dead
Victims are man in 40s and woman in 50s - their lives are not in danger; third person injured by glass
Armed surveillance officers were watching attacker; police say it was Islamist-inspired
Attacker was Sudesh Amman, 20, from Harrow, northwest London
Released a few weeks ago after serving less than half his sentence for spreading extremist material

Islam does not belong in the West at all.
1503   Fortwaynemobile   ignore (2)   2020 Feb 2, 8:06pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Diversity and inclusivity strikes again.
1504   Rin   ignore (7)   2020 Feb 2, 9:44pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Patrick says
Islam does not belong in the West at all.

It also doesn't belong in the east as well ... Buddhist, Hindu, and Confucian societies.

It's a religion which belongs is a time capsule, also known as the middle ages.
1505   HeadSet   ignore (3)   2020 Feb 6, 7:41am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

An illegal immigrant tried to kill a women who would not marry him so he could stay in England. Good thing a Taxi Driver intervened.

"Prosecutor Stefan Weidmann told St Albans Crown Court that Ahmed was an illegal immigrant from Bangladesh and wanted to marry his victim so he could stay in the country."

1506   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (2)   2020 Feb 6, 11:18am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Rin says
It also doesn't belong in the east as well ... Buddhist, Hindu, and Confucian societies.

Modern societies are not defined by old philosophies.
Maybe Islam ideas only survived so far because of a certain level of backwardness and a conservative revulsion at modernity.
But modernity is here. We live in the exponential. Everything is changing around us, and around the world...
Stone people? Cut off limbs? What weird ideas! How fragile are these ideas!
The only way Islam may win is if civilization fails and the world falls back into a new dark age, otherwise young people will increasingly find these ideas irrelevant and abandon them.
No doubt, some will try.
But hoping for both the west and the rising east to fall however may be a bit too much.
1508   Rin   ignore (7)   2020 Mar 2, 2:42pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Heraclitusstudent says
The only way Islam may win is if civilization fails and the world falls back into a new dark age, otherwise young people will increasingly find these ideas irrelevant and abandon them.

First of all, Islam is not a philosophy of any sorts.

It's in effect, the Imperial aspirations of a Caliphate Abu Bakr (followed by Umar upon his death). Did anyone know that Mohamed's six year old bride, Aisha, was Abu Bakr's biological daughter? What a dad?!

What Islam is ... is the colonial aspiration of a bunch of Arabian clans, wanting to exert their power, in areas outside of their earlier domains, like the Levant (of Byzantine/eastern Roman Empire) and the lands of the Sassanid Persian Empire.

Their success was based upon two major historic events, the first was the plague which killed 40%-50% of Constantinople and other near eastern cities, in decades prior, and the second, a decade long border war between the Byzantines and Persians which resulted in little more than both of their armies being decimated, not being able to deal with marauders coming from the south, led by Khalid Ibn Walid from Arabia under orders from Abu Bakr.

That's Islam in a nutshell. It's about war and conquest.

There's no Paul of Tarsus (a speaker/advocate for Jesus, even though he never met him in person), Hymns of Zoroaster (letters of the prophet to give identity to the Persian race/nation-state), messengers of Ashoka (spreading Buddhism into the rest of Asia), Lao Tzu, and so forth.
1509   Patrick   ignore (1)   2020 Mar 2, 6:36pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Thanks @Rin I knew about the long war between the Byzantines and Persians, but not about the plague as a factor in weakening the Byzantine empire.

There's another factor I picked up from "The Cartoon History of the Universe": Muslims charged lower taxes! The Persians and Byzantines were really squeezing their people, probably to fund the war. The Arabs swooped in and offered any converts from either side far lower taxes, and those taxes were based primarily on assets! As the poor had no assets, Islam was an appealing way to escape taxes, so many converted and joined the Arabs, fighting against their own countries. Fighting and killing non-Muslims are required by Islam, so they did that.

Jews and Christians who didn't convert were allowed to live as long as they paid the Jizya, a far higher tax than on Muslims. So only the wealthier Jews and Christians retained their religions. They were "exempt" from the military as their businesses were what was funding the Muslim armies to begin with. The Zoroastrians fled to India, where they are the Parsis of today, except for some pockets in remote regions of Iran.

If you chose not to pay the Jizya and not to convert and join the army to kill non-Muslims, then you were simply killed by the Muslims.

As an algorithm for spreading itself, Islam is pretty efficient. But the overall effect of Islam on humanity is a disaster. Muslims are violently intolerant of all other religions, unless they can exploit them for cash.
1510   Rin   ignore (7)   2020 Mar 2, 6:58pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Patrick says
Thanks @Rin I knew about the long war between the Byzantines and Persians, but not about the plague as a factor in weakening the Byzantine empire.

The plague had also affected the Persians as well, as it spread throughout the near east, not just the Mediterranean basin. Otherwise, the Persians would have easily defeated the Byzantines with little effort.

I guess it helped the Arabs that a barbaric Saudi Arabia had little contact with civilized societies outside of their desert peninsula.

Patrick says
As an algorithm for spreading itself, Islam is pretty efficient. But the overall effect of Islam on humanity is a disaster. Muslims are violently intolerant of all other religions, unless they can exploit them for cash.

You may want to take names on this one.

There really is no 'Islam'; it's the association of Abu Bakr (1st Caliphate), Khalid Ibn Walid (the General), & Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (2nd Caliphate) which is the religion in a nutshell. It's a tribal star chamber and their Imperial goals of conquering others and using the teachings of their deceased spiritual clan chef, Mohamed, to further their goals.

If you look at it like that, then Islam is nothing more than Arabic colonialism.

There is no proof that some desert dwellers were the great(-great-great...........)-grand descendants of Ismael or anything else, linking 'em to the Jewish nation or Christians of the near east.

This is the fantasy of Islam and its sense of legitimacy against Christianity and Judaism. Heck, even the bordering Persians could claim that the three Magi, referenced in the Bible, were their Zoroastrian scholars, finding Jesus as the Saoshyant (Savior in Old Persian) as predicted by Zoroaster himself. That's a far greater claim of spiritual legitimacy than some roving Arabic barbarian gangs, pillaging the land and telling others that they were Abraham's forgotten offsprings. Talk about lameass appropriations!
1511   Rin   ignore (7)   2020 Mar 2, 8:31pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Patrick says
The Zoroastrians fled to India, where they are the Parsis of today, except for some pockets in remote regions of Iran.

Guess who the other Zoroastrians, aside from the ones in India and former Soviet Central Asia were at, in more recent times? ...

Yes, the Yazidis of the Iraq-Syria border who were recently decimated, by guess who? ... another Abu Bakr namesake, head of ISIS! It's like the same genocides committed by Imams and Clerics, continually repeat, centuries later.
1512   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (2)   2020 Mar 3, 11:58am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Rin says

First of all, Islam is not a philosophy of any sorts.

It's in effect, the Imperial aspirations of a Caliphate Abu Bakr

Well it's a "tribe", in the sense a group animated by tribal instincts. (Tribes in this sense also include political parties, nations, cults, etc...)
All tribes are built around shared beliefs: dogmas, values, narratives, doctrines, etc....
Shared goals: pick your version of paradise.
In/out group dynamic: believers vs infidels.

So, for a tribe, the question is: Are your beliefs in sync with the world around you?
They won't be if a global civilization spreads around the earth, based on science and technology, based on liberalism or some kind of anti-religious ideology like in China.
They will be, if civilization collapses.
1513   Rin   ignore (7)   2020 Mar 3, 12:02pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Heraclitusstudent says
Well it's a "tribe", in the sense a group animated by tribal instincts. (Tribes in this sense also include political parties, nations, cults, etc...)

In this case, the tribe is the nationality/race of Arabia.

And thus, anyone who isn't an Arab, has no reason to adhere to Islam, outside of some forced conversion of one's ancestors.
1514   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (2)   2020 Mar 3, 12:09pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

No you're mistaking 'tribe' with the ethnic meaning. I mean it in the "beliefs" meaning.
But yes, it is kind of Arab centric, and a kind of Trojan horse for Arabic culture. Though the Turks can at least pretend to have dominated it historically. The Iranians have their own slightly different off-shoot, etc...
The thing with ideologies is that they tend to evolve with time, even when you have verses saying you can't change a comma, or something to that effect. What people actually believe changes.
Religions can't cross cultural frontiers without some change in character. This is why we have protestants in northern Europe but latin countries have more cult around the virgin Mary.
1515   Rin   ignore (7)   2020 Mar 3, 12:35pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Heraclitusstudent says
No you're mistaking 'tribe' with the ethnic meaning. I mean it in the "beliefs" meaning.
But yes, it is kind of Arab centric, and a kind of Trojan horse for Arabic culture. Though the Turks can at least pretend to have dominated it historically. The Iranians have their own slightly different off-shoot, etc...

In this case, the ethnic half is a significant aspect of the 'beliefs' structure.

The Sufis themselves, use a type of Guru yoga, but replacing "the Guru" with Mohamed's presence as oppose to let's say a Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, etc. This is, in a way, how eastern practices have survived in an Islamic world which doesn't want 'em.

The problem is that if you ask an educated, non-indoctrinated Turk, Persian, or Indonesian why they'd want to be a part of a religion where the entire basis of the faith lies below ...


and many won't want to answer the question because it exposes the truth that their ancestors were Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Christians, or Shamans who were forced to convert by virtue of a powerful Arabic empire of antiquity.

Yes, I know of these apostates and even they say that the Sufis (and Rumi) sold out just to keep their lives.
1516   Rin   ignore (7)   2020 Mar 3, 2:28pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Rin says

Yes, I know of these apostates and even they say that the Sufis (and Rumi) sold out just to keep their lives.

One more thing, they are deadly afraid of saying anything against Mohamed out loud but uniformly, throw Abu Bakr and any Babylonian Caliphate under the bus.

I think it's safe to say that the ancient proverb (paraphrased as) .."He who controls Babylon, controls the world" was probably what inspired the Abu Bakr invasion into greater Persia, resulting in today's Islamic stranglehold of the near east.

Since Islam is not separable from Abu Bakr, no matter how hard the Iranians say that Ali was the true Caliphate, that Mohamed was in effect, a conqueror/murderer by proxy, one degree of separation, his wife's father.

No other prophet in history can make such an assertion aside from let's say Charles Manson.
1517   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2020 Mar 4, 8:24am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Pakistanis torture a Choora - Christian - to death for polluting their water pipe by bathing their Kafirness in it.
1518   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2020 Mar 11, 3:41pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Shi'tes flagellating themselves by the thousands - in Germany.
1519   Patrick   ignore (1)   2020 Mar 12, 9:21pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Iraqi Islamic Scholar Hadi Al-Modarresi, Prior to Being Infected with Coronavirus: The Virus Is a Divine Punishment against the Chinese


Maybe he changed his mind now that he has it.
1521   Patrick   ignore (1)   2020 Mar 19, 5:16pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Gosh, those "orphans and widows" really need to shave more.
1522   Patrick   ignore (1)   2020 Mar 19, 7:55pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

We need more fundamentalist Muslim leaders to act like this!
1524   Patrick   ignore (1)   2020 Apr 16, 10:27pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

We should really refer to the Saudis as the factually correct "Islamic dictatorship of Saudi Arabia".
1525   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2020 Apr 23, 8:55pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

National Bikini Day falls on Ramadan!
1526   zzyzzx   ignore (2)   2020 May 4, 12:10pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      


Drinking Camel Urine for Coronavirus

An “Islamic medicine specialist” and director of a religious-scientific institution in Iran recently called on his countrymen to drink camel urine as the “best cure” for coronavirus and other ailments.
1527   NoCoupForYou   ignore (4)   2020 May 11, 11:51am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Was the Display Setter in on the Joke?

1528   Patrick   ignore (1)   2020 May 11, 5:18pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Mmmm, bacon...
1530   zzyzzx   ignore (2)   2020 May 12, 5:50am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Patrick says
Mmmm, bacon...

It clearly states bacon flavoring. It might not have any actual bacon.
1531   Patrick   ignore (1)   2020 Jun 1, 5:14pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      


Shocking moment sister of Florida terror suspect, 23, 'who idolized Pulse nightclub shooter and supported ISIS' is shot dead by police officer after she lunged at him wielding a butcher knife

Heba Momtaz Al-Azhari, 21, was shot and killed by Temple Terrace, Florida, police on Friday after attacking officer with a knife
Heba was the sister of Muhammed Momtaz Al-Azhari, 23, who was charged last week with attempting to provide material support to ISIS
Surveillance video shows Heba lunging at officer armed with a butcher knife outside Temple Terrace City Hall
Family spokesperson later said the woman was upset over her brother's arrest
Muhammed Al-Azhari is accused of trying to buy weapons, including assault-style rifle, and scouting potential targets for an attack in Tampa Bay area
Al-Azhari served three years in Saudi prison for plotting to travel to Syria with his father to join terror group and participate in jihad
He was deported back to the US in 2018 after completing his sentence
FBI says Al-Azhari told informant he wanted to kill at least 50 people and expressed admiration for Pulse shooter Omar Mateen
His phone was allegedly found to contain videos of Al-Azhari rehearsing what he would say when carrying out an attack

Absolutely no one on planet earth is surprised by this anymore.

No believing Muslim should be allowed into the United States.
1532   Patrick   ignore (1)   2020 Jun 5, 7:45pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      


Al-Qaeda chief in north Africa Abdelmalek Droukdel killed - France
1533   richwicks   ignore (1)   2020 Jun 5, 10:30pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Patrick says

Al-Qaeda chief in north Africa Abdelmalek Droukdel killed - France

Al-Qaeda justifies war in the Middle East and does not seem to advantage what they claim to be fighting for.

I think you should at least consider the possibility that they are dupes of our own intelligence agencies. I don't know, and cannot say they are, but I an reluctant to consider them so stupid.

Why is an Al-Qaeda leader doing - living in France? Communications are entirely compromised and I think I demonstrated that to you - or at least claimed I did. I can demonstrate it though. Suspicion of your government is a healthy thing, lack of it leads to authoritarianism.
1534   Patrick   ignore (1)   2020 Jun 6, 4:12pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

richwicks says
Why is an Al-Qaeda leader doing - living in France?

He was living in Mali and was killed there.
1536   Patrick   ignore (1)   2020 Jun 12, 8:43am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      


At least 1,000 non-Muslim girls are forcibly converted to Islam in the country annually, according to a Human Rights Commission of Pakistan report. Many of these girls belong to the Hindu community in Sindh, where most of Pakistan’s eight million Hindus live. Locals claim that such abductions are so common they affect ‘every other family‘, with a vast majority of those targeted underage. Some victims are as young as 12 years old.
1537   Blue   ignore (0)   2020 Jun 12, 9:04am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Patrick says

At least 1,000 non-Muslim girls are forcibly converted to Islam in the country annually, according to a Human Rights Commission of Pakistan report. Many of these girls belong to the Hindu community in Sindh, where most of Pakistan’s eight million Hindus live. Locals claim that such abductions are so common they affect ‘every other family‘, with a vast majority of those targeted underage. Some victims are as young as 12 years old.

Generally obduct and enslave but the "secular" media reports only conversations. Most of these girls never see their families. Islam creates these barbarians. Did anyone see action from UN in its existence.

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