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Islam and Violence


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by resistance     💰tip   follow   2007 Sep 11, 1:35am  

Originally from http://www.faithfreedom.org/

A Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins

Dear friends,

The tragic incidents of September 11 have shocked the world. It is unthinkable that anyone could be so full of hate as to commit such heinous acts and kill so many innocent people. We people of Muslim origin are as much shaken as the rest of the world and yet we find ourselves looked upon with suspicion and distrust by our neighbours and fellow citizens. We want to cry out and tell the world that we are not terrorists, and that those who perpetrate such despicable acts are murderers and not part of us. But, in reality, because of our Muslim origins we just cannot erase the stigma of Islamic Terrorism from our identity!

What most Muslims will say:

Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.

What knowledgeable Muslims should say:

That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do. Those who blow-up their own bodies to kill more innocent people do so because they think they will be rewarded in Paradise. They hope to be blessed by Allah, eat celestial food, drink pure wine and enjoy the company of divine consorts. Are they completely misguided? Where did they get this distorted idea? How did they come to believe that killing innocent people pleases God? Or is it that we are misguided? Does really Islam preach violence? Does it call upon its believers to kill non-believers? We denounce those who commit acts of violence and call them extremists. But are they really extremists or are they following what the holy book, the Qur'an tells them to do? What does the Qur'an teach? Have we read the Qur'an? Do we know what kind of teachings are there? Let us go through some of them and take a closer look at what Allah says.

What the Qur'an Teaches Us:

We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur'an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).

The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (14:17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (5:34). And tells us that for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19-22) and that they not only will have disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire) (22:9). The Qur'an says that those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy (25:68). For those who believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be harsh with unbelievers, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a stern command: Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin. (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that it is good for us even if we dislike it (2:216). Then he advises us to strike off the heads of the disbelievers; and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives (47:4). Our God has promised to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself (8:17). He orders us to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed (9:73).

He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises boys like hidden pearls (56:24) and youth never altering in age like scattered pearls (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to take a green branch and beat your wife, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.

Dear fellow Muslims:Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue? When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said To you be your religion, and to me my religion (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103) and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance in this well-known verse Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah. (The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail all over the earth.).Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions? The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men. Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children 'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation The Life of Muhammad) page 675, 676).The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing free people to slaves and then trading them. With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the 21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by completely ignoring history. They are propagating the same old dogma for simple believing people in a crisp new modern package. Their aim: to gain political power in today's high-tension world. They want to use the confrontational power of the original Islam to catalyse new conflicts and control new circles of power.

Dear conscientious Muslims, please question yourselves. Isn't this compulsive following of a man who lived 1400 years ago leading us to doom in a changing world? Do the followers of any other religion follow one man in such an all-encompassing way? Who are we deceiving, them or ourselves? Dear brothers and sisters, see how our Umma (people) has sunk into poverty and how it lags behind the rest of the world. Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong? Hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, wittingly or unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw above those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate-laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in the Philippines, slavery in the Sudan, honour killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in every Islamic country. We are responsible because we endorse Islam and hail it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what the Qur'an preaches - and ironically we are the main victims too. If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the word for what happened in New York, then why are we supporting the Qur'an that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for the murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what the Qur'an asks them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are doing just that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it. We can stop this madness. Yes, we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes, we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes, we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book, and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Qur'an. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Qur'an the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war. Islam divides the world in two. Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytise and procreate until their numbers increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam. In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is abuse of the trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. Let us see what great Islamic scholars have had to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an into English wrote: Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon the fighting against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.] Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims. [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in the Qur'an and were revealed when Islam was weak. Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace? We propose a solution.

We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.

Arabic translation الترجمة العربية

See http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis and http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for more.

Please copy this article, and distribute it as widely as possible, both online and physically. The future of humanity depends on it.

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1   Clarence 13X   2009 Nov 7, 3:07pm  

Bap33 says

steady market watcher says


The most important thing is that Muhammad was a prophet no different than Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus to most Muslims except that he was the last messenger.

lmao …. so full of poop. The baby raper camel herdsman named mohamad was just a drugged up Arab that hated Hebrews for being God’s chosen. Putting him with Arbaham or Moses or Jesus is absurd. But him with Joe Smith, as they both just wated a “me too” religion.

Maybe we should cool all the bashing of each others religions. All of these persons were just men, whom had a following that worshipped them blindly. There is no such thing as a mystery god and all religions are simply cultures for people that worship. All religions can be debunked in some form, but the existence of god cannot because their is no way we can deny our very own existence or put our finger on lifes origins. We 5% teach our people the Original Blackman is God, the Original Blackwoman is the planet Earth, and through the inner esoteric powers of the Gods and Earths, people can transform and possess their true potential.

...but does this mean that we actually believe that Black people have mystical superpowers? No, this is simply allegory used to motivate and help inspire others to uplift their lives and to believe in themselves....something that was needed as we transitioned into society.

These comments were fairly divisive in nature, but I can understand how emotional these topics can get at times.

2   Bap33   2009 Nov 8, 1:29am  

the term "prophet" was used. It means something. And, God uses prophets. But, prophets of God must be 100% correct or they are false-prophets. Men, yes the prophets mentioned are men ... except Jesus, who was God as a man - not just a man.

mohamad is not 100% correct in prophetic work, and is even doing worse than Nostradomus - percentage wise, so he has been proven to not be a prophet of God.

I follow no religion. I believe in God the father of all. And he demands blood for sin. And he sent his Son Jesus to die for all sins. I believe this based on The Bible's ability to explain the nature of God and it's perfect prophetic work. Knowing there is a God is not religion. Understanding The Bible is not a religion. Kneeling each day and aiming towards a paticular compass direction - as a direct order from clergy- is religous, and silly.

3   Clarence 13X   2009 Nov 8, 1:39pm  

Bap33 says

the term “prophet” was used. It means something. And, God uses prophets. But, prophets of God must be 100% correct or they are false-prophets. Men, yes the prophets mentioned are men … except Jesus, who was God as a man - not just a man.
mohamad is not 100% correct in prophetic work, and is even doing worse than Nostradomus - percentage wise, so he has been proven to not be a prophet of God.
I follow no religion. I believe in God the father of all. And he demands blood for sin. And he sent his Son Jesus to die for all sins. I believe this based on The Bible’s ability to explain the nature of God and it’s perfect prophetic work. Knowing there is a God is not religion. Understanding The Bible is not a religion. Kneeling each day and aiming towards a paticular compass direction - as a direct order from clergy- is religous, and silly.

Right, except Jesus the mystery god who died for everyones sins. Continue worshipping blindly, hopefully you will find what you seek without all the hatred of other religions....as hinted in your responses. Whether we kneel, close our eyes when we pray religion is nothing more than the culture that we identify with and assume for our methods of worship. This brings me back to my point of Christianity claims of supremacy through statements such as "All Things through Christ" and "No man shall enter gods kingdom except through Christ". This would mean that billions of people would be left out of the mystical heaven simply because they were born muslim or hindu...if this mysteryt god you call Jesus doesnt have room for different views then he is as close minded as you are. I will never state that no other prophets existed and are lesser than Mohammed, yet Christians use superiority complexes handed down from the crusades to proclaim Jesus the one and only true prophet, thereby damning the rest of the world to hell. I encourage you to stop denouncing other religions because you will miss out on a lot that other religious cultures have to offer....I am not waiting on Mohammed, Jesus or any other mystery man written about in scriptures to save my soul when I can do what is right now in the world that we live in.

This debate is older than our ages combined, dating back to the crusades when the hatred of other religious cultures began in a struggle over the areas many consider a holy land. Why engage ourselves in that kind of stupidity when Jesus or Mohammed would denounce any kind of violence brought about in a game of religious superiority.

In my old age, I have come to learn that it is quite silly to denounce other religions and proclaim Islam as the only one and true path to enlightenment...Just as silly as proclaiming my 5% beliefs of the black man being the one and only true and living GOD.

The bible and Koran are filled with fables written by men, designed to strike fear in our hearts in attempt to gain a following..obviously it is working. I would encourage you to try and think independently of any teachings of a mystery god as you are being misled by Jesus who was merely a man....no matter how much you proclaim him a god.

He still sat by and watche 5 million Africans die while crossing the seas and another 5 million Jews die at the hands of Hitler...Where was this mystery god Jesus then? Should we punish him for not using his mystical powers the same way you spoke of in your previous posts?

Salaam Alaikem

4   Clarence 13X   2009 Nov 8, 1:44pm  

I dont want you to gather any deep feelings, it is simply a forum for us to dialogue and I dont think you are a bad person for your views....but many years of life have gone by for me and I have learned to accept both religions for what they are...a culture of people brought together to worship.

5   NDrLoR   2009 Nov 10, 6:58am  

Islam, a tyranny based on religion, is to our generation what Nazism, tyranny based on racial hatred, and Communism, tyranny based on class hatred, was to our parents’ and grandparents’ generations. Our parents and grandparents dispatched both Nazism and Communism in short order because they had no doubt that America was the greatest country in the history of the world. Both tyrannies had their supporters and apologists around the world and in our country during their reigns. Of course the human emotions that led to their formations are as old as humankind itself and will never cease, just remain in check. As bad as Communists and Nazis were, they were not sufficiently enamored of their beliefs that they would blow themselves up as Muslims do.

Islam, ignoring the finer points of theology, has the intention of ultimately conquering the world and destroying the adherents of the other two major monotheistic faiths, Judaism and Christianity, along with all the secularists who don’t follow any faith or have abandoned their faiths. Islam is a far older tyranny than either Nazism or Communism and its followers have a built-in tolerance for biding their time, even over centuries, to accomplish their goals.

Virtually every major terrorist attack of the last 45 years was made by Muslims against civilization, right up to and including the one at Ft. Hood last week. Just as during the reign of Communism, there has been a notion that somehow these things must be tolerated and lived with because to respond to them would only make them madder.

Just as Patrick said, during the last 70 years, the rank and file populations of Germany or Japan probably had no quarrel at all with our citizens, just wanting to live their lives and pursue their dreams unmolested. It’s not the rank and file we have to fear, but the leaders and their armies—and in the case of Islam rabid individuals ready to blow themselves and everyone else to pieces. The individual Muslims I’ve worked with in the past were perfectly reasonable, likable people—except for their food. On one occasion on a “Diversity” day, they prepared some of their native dishes and I couldn’t abide them—I only like normal food and wasn’t able to take more than one bite before I had to excuse myself.

Muslims have none of the self-doubt and self-loathing that is so prevalent in the West today—they’re true believers in the ultimate victory of Islam over the infidel, plus they have infinite patience.

Much of Europe has abandoned Judeo/Christianity and the cities of Paris and London have large enclaves of self-segregated Muslims who marinate in resentment and hostility towards Westerners—they’d love to do the Charleston and Black Bottom and wear short skirts, but know Mohammed wouldn’t approve. Laws have been passed in many of these places that forbid any kind of criticism or satire directed against Muslims because they are so tetchy and can be set off by the least little thing that might offend them. A great palliative to Islam would be for the Firehouse Five Plus Two to set up in a mosque and blast the thing with a rousing version of Tiger Rag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rljRIEMDSo&feature=related

6   Clarence 13X   2009 Nov 10, 7:35am  

Many of your comments are based on Eastern Islamic philosophy, since I live in America I cannot hate America. I agree with what Patrick states but I dont engage in that stupidity nor do I deny it exists.

7   Clarence 13X   2009 Nov 11, 6:06am  

None of these fools were prophets, including Jesus. They were all men spewing a bunch of dreams from their internal desires and fears.

I dont follow anything blindly and without introspection.

8   Mr pre-modernist   2010 Jan 3, 3:33pm  

Islam and Judaism is a culture, a religion, and a way of life enmeshed together with a legal system and world-domination as an end-goal. Some forms of Christianity share these characteristics. These religions desire(d) to create a nation-state. For Jews: they must make a distinction between Zionism and Judaism. Not all Jews support the nation-state of Israel or the creation of a Zionist state. Many are against it. The same goes for Muslims and Christians creating states of their own.

Ultimately, we must examine our religious texts from an historical critical approach. You can't rely only on the text! You have to read the history with the text and examine the text critically for contradictions, not just devotionally! Stop the hate and the violence brothers and sisters! Have some respect for personal conviction!

Me: I was baptized a Christian. My religion was used to exploit people and keep them from thinking for themselves. Our texts were changed. You can read Bart D. Ehrman's research. Research the historical period from 0-300ce you'll see this clearly. The original followers of Yeshua were Torah following, Koesher Jews who believed that Yeshua fulfilled some manner of prophecy. There is one thing I like about the religion I came from. It shows that there is more to the law: the spirit behind the law and matters of the heart are just as important. And if you love your neighbor as yourself and love G-d, then you fulfill most of the law (some of the mitzvot and all Ten Commandments) Ultimately, Christianity is Greek platonism/mysticism fastened to Judaism with elements of Zorastrianism (First four chapters of Matthew, some of Luke, and Revelation). Unfortunately, Christianity is often used by corrupt politicians, clergy and popes to exploit people who are ignorant.

One thing we can agree on: Principles are important. They do exist. And unless we have some, civilization descends into chaos as history too easily makes clear. You all may not believe in religion, but I believe in the principles taught by my religion. Read Matthew chapter 5 and James 1-5. Ultimately my personal convictions lie closest to Ebionite. Yes, I am a heretic. I am sure the Christians and the Jews will both hate me now. Here: I don't believe Mohammed was a prophet and I think his life is very unspiritual. Now everyone hates me. Wait: Atheists, I believe in the idea of God even if God is only a theoretical construct. Why: I believe principles have a divine source.

9   Â¥   2010 Jan 3, 5:03pm  

Whenever you point your finger at someone you have three pointing back at you.

We can only lead by example. Only 15% of the US believe in naturalistic evolution; 30% or so desire public law to reflect Old Testament writings. We have our own row to hoe.

10   monkframe   2010 Jan 3, 11:38pm  

The problem isn't any particular religion so much as it's religion itself.
Used to promulgate mythology of whatever stripe, it's also used to justify and then start wars.
I've come to believe through observation that many humans seem to need some sort of belief in something other than our own abilities, and it doesn't increase our chances of survival as a species.

11   resistance   2010 Jan 3, 11:39pm  

But even the most fanatical Christian is a not a threat to public safety.

Disgruntled young men who find Jesus just try to convert you and 300 other people. Disgruntled young men who find Mohammed try to kill you and 300 other innocent passengers on a plane.

Draw a cartoon of Jesus, and Christians will just pity you. Draw a cartoon of Mohammed, and a Muslim with an ax shows up at your door.

12   scholayil   2010 Jan 3, 11:51pm  

Fundamentalism is a christian word.

Buddism is peaceful? Heard of JVC in srilanka, cambodia etc...War of the Worlds - Niall Ferguson is a good read. Kind of explains why Christaians had to kill 6 million Jews and 50 million inferior christians in War 1 & 2. Just dont mention crusades. So much for harmless Christian myth.

Humans don't need a rational reason to kill each other, if not for religion we will kill each other for association, e.g. soccer teams, or even food.

It is in fashion now to show muslims as the new jews so that killing them is easier on the soul. 1 Million "terrorists" were killed in Iraq for unobtainium.

Don't spread the evil muslim myth. All humans are animals. Just because suicide bombers dont have precision guided bombs that kills neatly, dont make them much different from you slaughtering vietcongs, iranians, panamians, guatamaleans, chileans, afghanis, iraqis.......for your evangelists.

13   scholayil   2010 Jan 3, 11:56pm  

People who have not been colonized before will not get the connection between Christianity and bloody coloniolists like the French and British and neo-colonialists like USA. Read more about pathetic humans.

14   monkframe   2010 Jan 3, 11:59pm  

"But even the most fanatical Christian is a not a threat to public safety.

Patrick, you forget about George W. Bush.

15   scholayil   2010 Jan 4, 12:02am  

I am from 3rd world, but now live in the US. Outwordly people are good and treat others nice. I am impressed.

Recently a missionary knocked on my door and told me I need to be f@@@$E "saved". I felt offended and am thinking about leaving US if this is how the mind of the citizens really work!

He tried to tell me how a jesus was born, was god , was human, had no followers, was killed, was alive again, he had to die for our sins, blah , blahs.....

I was happy I was not fed this crap at birth. I wanted to ask him if he realized all the absoulutely convoluted nonsense coming out of him??? but did not want to disappoint that idiot, I will leave it to Bill Maher

16   yachtman   2010 Jan 4, 12:03am  

But even the most fanatical Christian is a not a threat to public safety.
Disgruntled young men who find Jesus just try to convert you and 300 other people. Disgruntled young men who find Mohammed try to kill you and 300 other innocent passengers on a plane.
Draw a cartoon of Jesus, and Christians will just pity you. Draw a cartoon of Mohammed, and a Muslim with an ax shows up at your door.

Any religion that focuses upon the 'Old Jerusalem' is in bondage under their mother Hagar. This includes Islam, Judaism, and 99% of Christianity. Paul explains this in Galatians 4:24-31.

Paul begins Galatians with the threat he faced with Judaized Christianity creeping into the Church. Today, this is the most radical religious element in existence - Judeo-Christianity or Christian Zionism.

17   anonymous   2010 Jan 4, 12:51am  

In post #3, steady market watcher said:

"The Dalai Lama has proven to be a snake, a shameless opportunist who tried to capitalize on the opportunity to blackmail China as it readies to host the Olympics. "

Communism China has forced Dalai Lama, the Tibet leader (in sense of both religion and politics), to exile his homeland for more than half a century. A lot of his follwers who could not escape 50+ years ago had been either killed or tortured to death in jail. As the whole watching, Dalai is still being "rejected" to go back to his own country by the Communism China, which has occupied Tibet for 50+ years.

If you don't know this fact, Mr. steady market watch, just google it. An ignorant person never makes a good watch-er --- no matter what issue he intends to watch.

If you know that part of history, then, Mr. steady market watch, you certainly have very unique observation incline to see that Dalai is a snake just because Dalai made some soft and gentle complaint to the China government after he has been exiled for 50+ years and is still being deprived the right to go back to where he was born by invading foreign power.

18   anonymous   2010 Jan 4, 12:51am  

Islam and Judaism is a culture, a religion, and a way of life enmeshed together with a legal system and world-domination as an end-goal. Some forms of Christianity share these characteristics. These religions desire(d) to create a nation-state. For Jews: they must make a distinction between Zionism and Judaism. Not all Jews support the nation-state of Israel or the creation of a Zionist state. Many are against it. The same goes for Muslims and Christians creating states of their own.

Ultimately, we must examine our religious texts from an historical critical approach. You can't rely only on the text! You have to read the history with the text and examine the text critically for contradictions, not just devotionally! Stop the hate and the violence brothers and sisters! Have some respect for personal conviction!

Me: I was baptized a Christian. My religion was used to exploit people and keep them from thinking for themselves. Our texts were changed. You can read Bart D. Ehrman's research. Research the historical period from 0-300ce you'll see this clearly. The original followers of Yeshua were Torah following, Koesher Jews who believed that Yeshua fulfilled some manner of prophecy. There is one thing I like about the religion I came from. It shows that there is more to the law: the spirit behind the law and matters of the heart are just as important. And if you love your neighbor as yourself and love G-d, then you fulfill most of the law (some of the mitzvot and all Ten Commandments) Ultimately, Christianity is Greek platonism/mysticism fastened to Judaism with elements of Zorastrianism (First four chapters of Matthew, some of Luke, and Revelation). Unfortunately, Christianity is often used by corrupt politicians, clergy and popes to exploit people who are ignorant.

One thing we can agree on: Principles are important. They do exist. And unless we have some, civilization descends into chaos as history too easily makes clear. You all may not believe in religion, but I believe in the principles taught by my religion. Read Matthew chapter 5 and James 1-5. Ultimately my personal convictions lie closest to Ebionite. Yes, I am a heretic. I am sure the Christians and the Jews will both hate me now. Here: I don't believe Mohammed was a prophet and I think his life is very unspiritual. Now everyone hates me. Wait: Atheists, I believe in the idea of God even if God is a theoretical construct. Why: I believe principles have a divine source.

19   pacman   2010 Jan 4, 1:33am  

The assumptions of the behavior of Jesus are not based in historical data.
There is less historical information about Jesus than there is about Nicholas of Myra (Santa Claus).
The assumptions about Christianity being harmless are not based in fact. That would required forgetting the Inquisition, The Crusades, and the creation and support of modern Israel by Christians in part to help fulfill Revelations prophecy.
I think all religions go through cycles of violence, reform, and corruption.
I am a former born-again Christian. I now believe in no religion or superstition of any kind. I try to be aware of how much logic and science is behind my beliefs. I describe myself as a Scientist, as other labels are relative to religion.
The assumptions by some about non-religious people being immoral can not based in fact or experience. Superstitious beliefs are not required for humans to be moral or establish moral guidelines.
I know many kind Muslims. I think focusing on Muslim texts is a bit unfair. There are many violent and immoral texts included in the Christian Bible as well.
Any religious text should be viewed in context only. What human(s) wrote it? Why did they write it? How historically and scientifically reliable is the text? Only then can one see the relevance of such texts in the current world.

20   sfbubblebuyer   2010 Jan 4, 1:42am  

But even the most fanatical Christian is a not a threat to public safety.

Tell that to the doctors who have been shot and bombed by them. Nutbags are nutbags, no matter what religion they do or do not ascribe to.

21   resistance   2010 Jan 4, 1:59am  

Yes! Most Muslims are kind people, and quite reasonable, but that is in spite of Islam, not because of it. Islam teaches them to imitate the violence and intolerance of Mohammed. See the Koran quotes above. But humanity defeats Islamic teaching in most Muslims, most of the time.

Yes, there are violent and intolerant Christians, but that is in spite of Christianity, not because of it. Christianity teaches them to imitate the NON-violence and tolerance of Jesus. See the New Testament. But in some people, hate defeats Christian teaching.

What I'm talking here is about what people are taught is the right behavior, by the example of their founder. Jesus didn't hurt anyone, and stopped his followers from using violence. Mohammed killed lots of people, and did not stop his followers from using violence.

What do the two religions teach people to do?

The Muslim who showed up with an ax at the door of a cartoonist was PRAISED by Islamic leaders. That's just not right.

22   Done!   2010 Jan 4, 2:15am  

I found it to be Opposite in Malaysia a Muslim country, than that our media has ingrained in our psyche. I wasn't even aware at the time it was illegal for me to say "Allah" as a non Muslim, until just last week, after it was over turned. I found the Muslims I met, kind and soft spoken. One silently protested me wearing shorts, but he wasn't like "Off with his head!" about it.

We need to start treating terrorist thugs as such and quit dragging religion into it.

Until the Muslim community start trying to impose Shiria(sp) law here, they are O.K. with me for the most part.

23   scholayil   2010 Jan 4, 2:27am  

Anyone who believes in religions and profhets and that only the one chosen by birth is loved by god is a nut case.

Try reading "Evolution of God"; Jesus was no popular man if he existed. Most of jesus' and christian teachings are Paulanity and others writings. It is nice to imagine a peaceful man. Then sing and fall in love with the songs. The above book makes clear that the Roman power was too absolute to allow Christians to be violent. Too bad suicide bombing was not invented by LTTE yet. Christians brought out violence when balance of power shifted. Sounds familair these days with all the invasions in 'sthans.

Same kind of MYTHOLOGY repeats in other places too. God Rama of hindus was not as popular in ancient times as he is now all thanks to some good poets and songers who created love in the heart of desciples. Reminds me of a good Hindu who adviced me on moving to Texas "Never discuss religion or politics at work, you think muslims fundamentalists are dangerous, wait till u see these guys, plus they have guns and think bush is a prophet"

Only Christians could use nukes on fellow humans as the yellow ones were not 'shaved'. No other religion has tried that yet. My bet is Jews will be next to try that. Muslims will have a tough time as the prophet also says something like "killing one person is like killing humanity..." and "Do not exceed in retribution, one eye for an eye is enough, nothing more, if possible forgive, god loves the forgiving and the patient...."

24   anonymous   2010 Jan 4, 2:37am  

Before I begin - I will agree with your analysis that many Muslims are uneducated about their religion which is leading to the confusion today - education in the Muslim world needs to be addressed as this is the best solution for ignorance.

A couple of problems with your analysis...

1) Yusuf Ali himself was of Pakistan origin - he did not speak Arabic nor could he understand the arabic of the Quran - in fact, it takes a studied person to understand the Arabic of the Qur'an which is referred to as Fus'ha Arabic.
2) The above verses are not only taken out of context but as I mentioned in #1 they are mis translated and misunderstood. These quotes, by in large are in response to an occurance - for instance where it states to "kill the disbelievers where you find them" - read a few verses before this and after and you will see it refers to retaliation against those who attack first.
3) The Prophet Mohammad did not lead us to doom. In fact, we were being led to doom before Allah chose him to bring humanity out of darkness into light - as He did with all of his Prophets. Only an ignorant person with no knowledge of Islam or the Prophet Mohammad would think otherwise.
4) This war that is being waged is not a war against Prophet of Islam or Islam itself - now follow my reasoning - the Qur'an states that Allah is the protector of his Prophet and of this Religion. The job of every Muslim is only to convey the message. The war that is being waged is between Allah and those opposing his will.
...I end with a quote from the Qur'an

18:28 And keep thy soul content with those who call on their Lord morning and evening, seeking His Face; and let not thine eyes pass beyond them, seeking the pomp and glitter of this Life; nor obey any whose heart We have permitted to neglect the remembrance of Us, one who follows his own desires, whose case has gone beyond all bounds (i.e., whose case has been abandoned).
18:29 Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!

25   Mr pre-modernist   2010 Jan 4, 3:28am  

This has been a good discussion. I've enjoyed it.

In response to Pacman: "The assumptions of the behavior of Jesus are not based in historical data. There is less historical information about Jesus than there is about Nicholas Klass (Santa Claus)."

True, sort of. We have many accounts of written by other people, but it is odd that Yeshua wrote none of his own. Regardless, there is a lot of data surrounding the Jerusalem church overseen by Yeshua's brother James "the Just." Many historians also confirm this fact. Historians also confirm that the original text used by Christians was called the gospel of the Hebrews, which was quite similar to the Gospel of St. Matthew used today by Christians, without the first four chapters. In others words, the Virgin birth of Christ, the story of the Three-wise-men, these narratives were added and come from Zorastrianism (Mithraism*). The gospel of Matthew is about as close as we'll get to what the original Christians read before Christianity was hi-jacked for political purposes.

Responding to Pacman once again:

"The assumptions about Christianity being harmless are not based in fact."

Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, and Satanism are all harmless. They're just ideas. People make them harmful. There is no way to quantify a religion scientifically and say that one is harmful. You could statistically quantify the religion's followers who are violent, but they'd be marginalized: less than 5%. People, as in the crusades, only do what they're told because they're too stupid to think for themselves. They don't learn to make distinctions between political goals and religion.

Pacman: "now [I] believe in no religion or superstitious of any kind. I try to be aware of how much logic and science is behind my beliefs. I try to be aware of how much logic and science is behind my beliefs. I describe myself as a Scientist, as other labels are relative to religion. The assumptions by some about non-religious people being immoral can not based in fact or experience. Superstitious beliefs are not required for humans to be moral or establish moral guidelines."

Too bad. Scientism is a religion in itself--in that it is a systematic worldview. Science doesn't give us much of an ought. Science only tells us how the world is. Read Scottish philosopher David Hume's Essay on the is/ought problem. Once we find out the truth statements, we still have to decide to do with the data. Only philosophy, ethics, religion and CONVICTIONS can tell us this.

A religion is just a system of beliefs. If the beliefs are pro-social, they can do society great good. Logic and science only test for truth statements. If that's all we have, then looking at German and Russian History, they were nations which were very scientific--the pinnacle of scientific. Germany pre-WWII had more scientist P.h.D's than any nation at that time. Science didn't serve them well--it failed them miserably. The scientists committed mass genocide on a scale never before seen in the modern world. Certainly, their education failed them.

Next statement:
"I know many kind Muslims. I think focusing on Muslim texts is a bit unfair. There are many violent and immoral texts included in the Christian Bible as well."

All of the violent texts are found in the old testament. The only new testament texts that you could claim a problem with were written by Paul of Tarsus. Paul was an anti-semite, and wrote against homosexuality and had what we would call a masculinist view of women.

In response to scholayil: "Try reading “Evolution of God”; Jesus was no popular man if he existed. Most of jesus’ and christian teachings are Paulanity and others writings. It is nice to imagine a peaceful man. Then sing and fall in love with the songs. The above book makes clear that the Roman power was too absolute to allow Christians to be violent. Too bad suicide bombing was not invented by LTTE yet. Christians brought out violence when balance of power shifted. Sounds familair these days with all the invasions in ’sthans."

Most of Jesus' teachings are not Paulinty. I question the author's scholarship. I recommend that you read the works of renowned scholars such as Bart D. Ehrman (University of North Carolina Chapel Hill) or Bruce Metzger. The information presented above is inaccurate and juvenile. You have to understand church history to make these claims. I question "Evolution of God" as a credible text. Paul turned Jesus into a god-man. There were a handful of Christian groups at the outset: The Ebionites, the Marcionites, gnostics and proto-orthodox (those who adopted the Pauline interpretation of Christianity and later wiped the other groups out). Pauline Christianity is what became Roman-Catholicism and Protestantism.

I'll close with my previous statement: The original followers of Yeshua were Torah following, Koesher Jews who believed that Yeshua fulfilled some manner of prophecy. There is one thing I like about the religion I came from. It shows that there is more to the law: the spirit behind the law and matters of the heart are just as important. And if you love your neighbor as yourself and love G-d, then you fulfill most of the law (some of the mitzvot and all Ten Commandments) Ultimately, Christianity is Greek platonism/mysticism fastened to Judaism with elements of Zorastrianism (First four chapters of Matthew, some of Luke, and Revelation). Unfortunately, Christianity is often used by corrupt politicians, clergy and popes to exploit people who are ignorant.

26   Â¥   2010 Jan 4, 6:36am  

But even the most fanatical Christian is a not a threat to public safety.
Disgruntled young men who find Jesus just try to convert you and 300 other people. Disgruntled young men who find Mohammed try to kill you and 300 other innocent passengers on a plane.
Draw a cartoon of Jesus, and Christians will just pity you. Draw a cartoon of Mohammed, and a Muslim with an ax shows up at your door.

I don't dispute that. But we need to approach this situation with intelligence and not stupidity, since stupidity is going to get a lot people killed, likely including a lot of us.

The muslim extremists that pop up are like cornered animals seeking ways to push back. With 9/11, the London attacks and this latest loser there can be a thread of causality identified. I'm not justifying the shit they pull but the reality is what it is.

We can fight fire with fire and blow their shit up in response, like we did in Afghanistan and Iraq. Well, that seems not to work so well unless you're a stockholder in LMT.

I'm a liberal because liberalism works in the long run. We don't need to shove Westernism down their throats and we don't need to tell them how to run their lives. They'll figure it out eventually. Not this decade or maybe not this century but eventually.

Defense of our way of life doesn't really require much. We've got our own home-grown Taliban to deal with, what with Proposition 8 and the the fucktard fundie contingent.

27   resistance   2010 Jan 4, 6:46am  

We should definitely not "fight fire with fire" or "shove Westernism down their throats".

The right response, IMHO, is honest and non-violent essays exactly like the one above, written in Arabic, and distributed widely. They are human just like the rest of us, and I'm sure at some level they suspect that Islam is wrong.

The US does lots of stupid things abroad to profit certain shareholders here at home. I think those shareholders are already reaping some of the consequences of their bad karma, and US power will probably fade from the world because of that, like the English empire faded.

28   anonymous   2010 Jan 4, 7:55am  

Well,

I m muslim living in USA.

It is in my daily routine that I read holy quran and get benefited from it one way or the other. I m proud to be muslim, living & working cordially with Chritians and Jews.

I agree with Kashif313 that Quran has been intrepreted completely wrong in many occasions by the people don't have knowlege. Its like If I say 'you are allowed to kill a person' but don't say that 'when your life itself in danger with that person' will make my statement completely out of context.

Don't try to misintrepret Islam, its a beautiful religion gives you the balanced life in this world, tells you the purpose of this very short life in response to the life coming next which will be forever. In the Holy Quran, God (Allah) doesn't tell you to kill non-muslims rather God tell you to be JUST with each other. If someone intends to kill you then you are allowed to kill'em as you are allowed to kill the robber in your house trying to kill you.

I strongly denounce the acts of terrorisms of 9/11, london attacks & or the one in the forthood texas. And I also denounce the killings of innocents being killed in the so-called wars of terrosim whether they are in Iraq, Afghanistan or in the Israel/Palestine as the all of the prophets taught love not war and WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER. But these war will let individual youngsters to rise and take their revenge against innocents.

Producing the article like this wouldn't shed the light on the problem at hand rather it will increase hatred amongst the people and create racism with each other. We need to educate people and ask them to read the holy books in detail and don't try to mistrepret the real meaning or the message of almight God (Allah) towards the humanity, refer the educated cleric as these are the statements of God not the person which were conveyed by His messenger and God (Allah) himself give you the challenge in the quran that His word won't never be altered.

My friends, we would never be prevailed if we promote hatred but love..

AN

29   resistance   2010 Jan 4, 8:01am  

What matters is not the educated cleric, but what you youself can clearly see the meaning is. And what the terrorists clearly see the meaning is.

I'm sure AN and Kashif313 are fine human beings, but that's because they're fine human beings to begin with and they choose to ignore the parts of the Koran and Mohammed's history that are cruel and inhuman.

As long as you keep calling Qur’an the unchangeable book of God, you cannot blame terrorists who clearly understand what is written there for all to see.

30   Â¥   2010 Jan 4, 8:20am  

Secularists are something of an endangered minority in this county, btw. Until it is safe to be an avowed atheist here in the states I don't think we have any moral basis telling them how to read their own holy book.

31   Â¥   2010 Jan 4, 8:28am  

Patrick, I think you're way out of line with that, if I may honestly express my opinion here.

People who get sucked into religion project themselves into what they read and are taught.

Mormons are nice people to a fault but their religion is screwed up in parts.

I'm no islamic scholar but I take imdrpepper's above at face value. What we call the Old Testament is full of crap teachings and somehow the Christianists here in the US work around them for the most part.

Going out of your way to insult their beliefs isn't going to improve the situation. I do it en passant because I'm tired of the bullshit from all sides, but this also probably isn't conducive.

32   scholayil   2010 Jan 4, 8:30am  

All religious are nuts accept it.

I understand Christians want to look good, the best way is to highlight people worse than the Christian 'educated'. I think those 'islamic' terrorists may need to do a lot more killings to evoke shame in Muslims, if that is what Christian media/evangelists want.

Being blessed with Jesus and love, any explanation why Christians engage in Killings to defeat godless communists and other killings for profit?
1. Millions in vietnam, cambodia, Korea, Iraq, Iran
3. Millions in colonialist times
5. Millions in Japan
6. 70 Million in WW1-2
7. Millions in Afghan - Pak -USSR _USA Mess ( Reagen commented Bin Laden and fighters are like founders of USA. Maybe some truth in that)

Do you really think Christian Communist killing is over? If over they need a new enemy for the arms industry. Religion plays well for the powerful.

33   kthomas   2010 Jan 4, 8:31am  

Patrick, you never cease to amaze me. You tackle tough subjects, but in a civilized manner. God bless you.

Anyhow, as a recent convert to Islam, I can honestly say there's a lot of bullshit in the Koran. However, there's an equal amount in the Old and New Testaments. To blindly believe is to be led off of a cliff. God wants us to question things.

Theologically, Islam is more complete than Judaism and Christianty. It speaks to many things that the Bible never really discusses. Things like taxes, the adoption of children, how to deal with thieves and criminals, what to eat and what not to eat, how to love your wife and children, it preaches racial and social equality, something Jesus was crucified for. Morever, it reaffirms many of the more ardent beliefs that make Jews jews and Christians christians, namely the belief in the One God. (The Holy Trinity concept is, franky, too confusing.) The Bible is very clear that we are all children of Noah and Abraham, so there is no difference.

These days, it's all politics and money, the latter be the Golden Cow of our time. For example, if after WW2 there were no Muslims at all in the Holy Land and only Christians, would US policy towards Israel be so one-sided? And if only Christians lived in Saudi Arabia, and Iraq, and Iran, would our petrol-driven economy had been so eager to deplete and rob our Christian brothers?

Ghandi said it best: If all Christians lived according to the teachings of the Prophet Jesus, there would be no Jews, no Hindus, no Bhuddists and no Muslims.

Why did I convert? I myself was inspired by Malcolm X. His hatred of whites was transformed into love. He inspired me greatly. He died for his change of heart, killed by his own people.

As for me, I fear only one thing: God's wrath. If I commit to evil deeds, God will know, and deal with me accordingly. Likewise, if I commit to good deeds, God will know. A healthy fear of God is all one needs to lead a good life. True, some, as you say, are good as is. But Patrick, this is not enough. I've never met an aethiest that was not in fear or paranoia. And though they be fools, I still love them as brothers and sisters. If Muhammed came down right now and told me to commit violence against innocent people, simply because they do not share my beliefs, it is Muhammed that had better worry. I will not lift a finger in violence to any, save he occasioanl criminal or violent fool that wishes me harm. In such cases, you are obligated to chatise evil.

34   resistance   2010 Jan 4, 8:34am  

I'm not insulting anyone. People can choose to be insulted, but that's their choice.

Yes, Christians (and Jews) ignore some very violent episodes in the Old Testament. Good thing! The problem here is that the terrorists are not ignoring what they read in the Koran. They understand it clearly, and they act on it.

No one needs to be a scholar here. Just read the words. They mean what they mean.

35   anonymous   2010 Jan 4, 8:42am  

I am a born again, have a personal savior and a personal relationship as real as one with a human can possibly have. I talk to god and walk with him. I am convinced, god is my neighbors tree. I would like to share him with everyone in the audience. Please repleat after me. Mr. Tree, we have sined, falling of grace, and come before you, believe you are the only true god and will come to ask you in case of a emergency which way to run, if a nuke hits the earth. We will ask the tree to strike down the ants and kill the mosquitos. Do karate with the snow and to every now and then fall on a car. If need be on a human, if pat robinson finds a reason to. God is a nice cartoon carter, who gets drunk often and is violent when he doesn't get his way, he only needs our money and doesn't care about anything else. expect we give more next week.

36   scholayil   2010 Jan 4, 8:48am  

Well said!

Abdul Muthalib does it influenced by a Yemeni Mulla wearing dirty turban using underwear bombs

Reagen/Bush and his kind of folk do it under influence from evangelists wearing clean cut suits using neat bombs and UAV's.

while vast majority of humans hope they both stop.

37   pacman   2010 Jan 4, 10:18am  

Erickk Hoogenbaum: "Too bad. Scientism is a religion in itself–in that it is a systematic worldview. Science doesn’t give us much of an ought. Science only tells us how the world is. Read Scottish philosopher David Hume’s Essay on the is/ought problem. Once we find out the truth statements, we still have to decide to do with the data. Only philosophy, ethics, religion and CONVICTIONS can tell us this."

It is true that Science alone has no opinion on human behavior. But logic and science can help form and maintain a rational belief system of philosophy and ethics.
At the core of any belief system (including philosophy, ethics, and religion), are some unprovable assumptions. I reason that the fewer assumptions the better, that assumptions should not contradict logic, and that superstition cannot help clarify beliefs in any meaningful way.

A common sense belief assumption may be: We should treat others with kindness as we wish to be treated, and we likely be treated the same.
If "and God said so" is added, it does not clarify the reasoning behind the belief.
Religious beliefs were at one time based on a persons reasoning. That reasoning may or may not be valid now (according to current society or knowledge).

For example, perhaps rules against eating pork or shellfish can be eliminated because of refrigeration, or perhaps the list of animals not to eat should be expanded/changed to help with sustainability of the animals, or our environment. The logic behind religious beliefs should be reevaluated occasionally.

38   Â¥   2010 Jan 4, 11:18am  

No one needs to be a scholar here. Just read the words. They mean what they mean.

That is bullpucky, rhetorical fundamentalism to slag on the religion. (edit: everything controversial has a critical context, and at any rate religionists are very adept at mentally firewalling the crap that causes difficulties for them)

Unlike kthomas above I don't look to musty books for any sort of received morality or ways to live my life, but I understand that BILLIONS of people are either conditioned to do so or find the nihilism and uber-rationality of secular reason to be too much for their monkey brains, and sink back into the warm comfort of faith in a creator or otherwise superior force in the Universe.

IMHO slagging on their religion and the central figure of it as you do is just going to repulse them, as if I walked on the campus of BYU and started slagging on about all the BS surrounding Joseph Smith's life.

Attacking a religion head on like this is a mug's game. You're just playing into their defense mechanisms. The only way to beat back the tide of religion is to live a better life without it and let that be your argument.

39   anonymous   2010 Jan 4, 11:19am  

There has been many jesus, but not one has really existed, just one story that evolved into another one. In the evolutin of god, author didn't want to say god didn't exist, but he put all the info in the book, not very well. Osirus story was not included per politial reasons. you dont want to piss off your audience. Religino is only a need to believe in something, to strengthen your self to fight. There where only a few religions with saviors, which today we believe in. We still have the charlatons, who sell magic. We dont consider them jesus freaks, yet now you know mark is the only book in the bible that could be read, the rest where made up from mark, even mark was made up from other similar stories like jesus. Osirus was killed and he resurected and came back for his people. why did they need him, it's a story, just like today we need jesus. sounds great. writen very well, and evolved, they changed the story many times until it fits perfect today. as soon as you get ride of the middle class and get the poor working like dogs, you get rid of all the problems. NO more fanatics, hell is on earth as heaven is for the rich. when you don't have time, you don't start problems. Our consumer society has to end, a new one of hard work and little pay will begin, probably it will get closer next 20 years. When they blame all our problems on us and make us pay for them, no retirement, and less good jobs. Work in the fields if you want to eat, or move to another country and work in the fields for less. Welcome to the real world, the internet economy, information economy, where techology goes faster than a speeding bullet and we are out of the picture. No pie for you.

40   monkframe   2010 Jan 4, 1:43pm  

So if we're worried about how many people die as a result of, what, religious belief? Hands down in the last ten years, it's Christians running the show and killing massive numbers of people.
George W. Bush, in response to 9/11 (3,000 dead), starts two wars, killing at least some thousands in Afghanistan intially, and then topping that by invading Iraq and killing (by some estimates) hundreds of thousands of people in that country.
Now forget about religion for a second and imagine, in your comfortable existence here in the seat of empire, that we were invaded and got the shit bombed of us. Carpet bombing, not a one-time hit on a prominent target. Whoa, time to take the war to the enemy, no matter the cost, eh?
That's what I find missing from discussions about Islam or any other religion somehow being a worse book of old myths than another book of old myths--the question WHY? Why do they hate us? as one moron asked in recent years.
Figure it out.

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