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Manifesto of Austin, TX IRS Suicide Bomber


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2010 Feb 19, 4:21am   11,785 views  40 comments

by NDrLoR   ➕follow (3)   💰tip   ignore  

 I'm curious to see what the response is to the following Manifesto posted by the Austin man who dived his plane into the IRS building in Austin, TX.   Personally, I believe many of his problems were self-imposed and he may simply have not had a good enough business acumen to make any venture work.  He also seems to have had the incredibly bad fortune to be at the exact locations where a previous boom was turning into a bust.   There also seems to be a degree of "it's everyone else's fault".   In the end, what he did was inexcuasble and his name deserves nothing but infamy.  This reminds me much of Oklahoma City in '95--while two deaths are two too many, at least a carnage on that scale was avoided although the aftermath looks similar.   This also reminds me of Ted Kozinski in making his manifesto public simply out of ego, but of course he plied his evil against many people for nearly two decades before being caught.

Austin Texas Plane Crash

Source: http://twitpic.com/13yxsb

//

Wow. Check out the anti-big brother rant on EmbeddedArt.com that's almost certainly from the pilot of the crash.

The manifesto is dated today, and it even anticipated his death.

---------

"If you’re reading this, you’re no doubt asking yourself, “Why did this have to happen?”  The simple truth is that it is complicated and has been coming for a long time.  The writing process, started many months ago, was intended to be therapy in the face of the looming realization that there isn’t enough therapy in the world that can fix what is really broken.  Needless to say, this rant could fill volumes with example after example if I would let it.  I find the process of writing it frustrating, tedious, and probably pointless… especially given my gross inability to gracefully articulate my thoughts in light of the storm raging in my head.  Exactly what is therapeutic about that I’m not sure, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

We are all taught as children that without laws there would be no society, only anarchy.  Sadly, starting at early ages we in this country have been brainwashed to believe that, in return for our dedication and service, our government stands for justice for all.  We are further brainwashed to believe that there is freedom in this place, and that we should be ready to lay our lives down for the noble principals represented by its founding fathers.  Remember? One of these was “no taxation without representation”.  I have spent the total years of my adulthood unlearning that crap from only a few years of my childhood.  These days anyone who really stands up for that principal is promptly labeled a “crackpot”, traitor and worse.

While very few working people would say they haven’t had their fair share of taxes (as can I), in my lifetime I can say with a great degree of certainty that there has never been a politician cast a vote on any matter with the likes of me or my interests in mind.  Nor, for that matter, are they the least bit interested in me or anything I have to say.

Why is it that a handful of thugs and plunderers can commit unthinkable atrocities (and in the case of the GM executives, for scores of years) and when it’s time for their gravy train to crash under the weight of their gluttony and overwhelming stupidity, the force of the full federal government has no difficulty coming to their aid within days if not hours?  Yet at the same time, the joke we call the American medical system, including the drug and insurance companies, are murdering tens of thousands of people a year and stealing from the corpses and victims they cripple, and this country’s leaders don’t see this as important as bailing out a few of their vile, rich cronies.  Yet, the political “representatives” (thieves, liars, and self-serving scumbags is far more accurate) have endless time to sit around for year after year and debate the state of the “terrible health care problem”.  It’s clear they see no crisis as long as the dead people don’t get in the way of their corporate profits rolling in.

And justice? You’ve got to be kidding!

How can any rational individual explain that white elephant conundrum in the middle of our tax system and, indeed, our entire legal system?  Here we have a system that is, by far, too complicated for the brightest of the master scholars to understand.  Yet, it mercilessly “holds accountable” its victims, claiming that they’re responsible for fully complying with laws not even the experts understand.  The law “requires” a signature on the bottom of a tax filing; yet no one can say truthfully that they understand what they are signing; if that’s not “duress” than what is.  If this is not the measure of a totalitarian regime, nothing is.

How did I get here?

My introduction to the real American nightmare starts back in the early ‘80s.  Unfortunately after more than 16 years of school, somewhere along the line I picked up the absurd, pompous notion that I could read and understand plain English.  Some friends introduced me to a group of people who were having ‘tax code’ readings and discussions.  In particular, zeroed in on a section relating to the wonderful “exemptions” that make institutions like the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy.  We carefully studied the law (with the help of some of the “best”, high-paid, experienced tax lawyers in the business), and then began to do exactly what the “big boys” were doing (except that we weren’t steeling from our congregation or lying to the government about our massive profits in the name of God).  We took a great deal of care to make it all visible, following all of the rules, exactly the way the law said it was to be done.

The intent of this exercise and our efforts was to bring about a much-needed re-evaluation of the laws that allow the monsters of organized religion to make such a mockery of people who earn an honest living.  However, this is where I learned that there are two “interpretations” for every law; one for the very rich, and one for the rest of us… Oh, and the monsters are the very ones making and enforcing the laws; the inquisition is still alive and well today in this country.

That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0.  It made me realize for the first time that I live in a country with an ideology that is based on a total and complete lie.  It also made me realize, not only how naive I had been, but also the incredible stupidity of the American public; that they buy, hook, line, and sinker, the crap about their “freedom”… and that they continue to do so with eyes closed in the face of overwhelming evidence and all that keeps happening in front of them.

Before even having to make a shaky recovery from the sting of the first lesson on what justice really means in this country (around 1984 after making my way through engineering school and still another five years of “paying my dues”), I felt I finally had to take a chance of launching my dream of becoming an independent engineer.

On the subjects of engineers and dreams of independence, I should digress somewhat to say that I’m sure that I inherited the fascination for creative problem solving from my father.  I realized this at a very young age.

The significance of independence, however, came much later during my early years of college; at the age of 18 or 19 when I was living on my own as student in an apartment in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.  My neighbor was an elderly retired woman (80+ seemed ancient to me at that age) who was the widowed wife of a retired steel worker.  Her husband had worked all his life in the steel mills of central Pennsylvania with promises from big business and the union that, for his 30 years of service, he would have a pension and medical care to look forward to in his retirement.  Instead he was one of the thousands who got nothing because the incompetent mill management and corrupt union (not to mention the government) raided their pension funds and stole their retirement.  All she had was social security to live on.

In retrospect, the situation was laughable because here I was living on peanut butter and bread (or Ritz crackers when I could afford to splurge) for months at a time.  When I got to know this poor figure and heard her story I felt worse for her plight than for my own (I, after all, I thought I had everything to in front of me).  I was genuinely appalled at one point, as we exchanged stories and commiserated with each other over our situations, when she in her grandmotherly fashion tried to convince me that I would be “healthier” eating cat food (like her) rather than trying to get all my substance from peanut butter and bread.  I couldn’t quite go there, but the impression was made.  I decided that I didn’t trust big business to take care of me, and that I would take responsibility for my own future and myself.

Return to the early ‘80s, and here I was off to a terrifying start as a ‘wet-behind-the-ears’ contract software engineer... and two years later, thanks to the fine backroom, midnight effort by the sleazy executives of Arthur Andersen (the very same folks who later brought us Enron and other such calamities) and an equally sleazy New York Senator (Patrick Moynihan), we saw the passage of 1986 tax reform act with its section 1706.

For you who are unfamiliar, here is the core text of the IRS Section 1706, defining the treatment of workers (such as contract engineers) for tax purposes. Visit this link for a conference committee report (http://www.synergistech.com/1706.shtml#ConferenceCommitteeReport) regarding the intended interpretation of Section 1706 and the relevant parts of Section 530, as amended. For information on how these laws affect technical services workers and their clients, read our discussion here (http://www.synergistech.com/ic-taxlaw.shtml).

SEC. 1706. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN TECHNICAL PERSONNEL.

(a) IN GENERAL - Section 530 of the Revenue Act of 1978 is amended by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection:

(d) EXCEPTION. - This section shall not apply in the case of an individual who pursuant to an arrangement between the taxpayer and another person, provides services for such other person as an engineer, designer, drafter, computer programmer, systems analyst, or other similarly skilled worker engaged in a similar line of work.

(b) EFFECTIVE DATE. - The amendment made by this section shall apply to remuneration paid and services rendered after December 31, 1986.

Note:

·      "another person" is the client in the traditional job-shop relationship.

·      "taxpayer" is the recruiter, broker, agency, or job shop.

·      "individual", "employee", or "worker" is you.

 

Admittedly, you need to read the treatment to understand what it is saying but it’s not very complicated.  The bottom line is that they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d).  Moreover, they could only have been more blunt if they would have came out and directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave.  Twenty years later, I still can’t believe my eyes.

During 1987, I spent close to $5000 of my ‘pocket change’, and at least 1000 hours of my time writing, printing, and mailing to any senator, congressman, governor, or slug that might listen; none did, and they universally treated me as if I was wasting their time.  I spent countless hours on the L.A. freeways driving to meetings and any and all of the disorganized professional groups who were attempting to mount a campaign against this atrocity.  This, only to discover that our efforts were being easily derailed by a few moles from the brokers who were just beginning to enjoy the windfall from the new declaration of their “freedom”.  Oh, and don’t forget, for all of the time I was spending on this, I was loosing income that I couldn’t bill clients.

After months of struggling it had clearly gotten to be a futile exercise.  The best we could get for all of our trouble is a pronouncement from an IRS mouthpiece that they weren’t going to enforce that provision (read harass engineers and scientists).  This immediately proved to be a lie, and the mere existence of the regulation began to have its impact on my bottom line; this, of course, was the intended effect.

Again, rewind my retirement plans back to 0 and shift them into idle.  If I had any sense, I clearly should have left abandoned engineering and never looked back.

Instead I got busy working 100-hour workweeks.  Then came the L.A. depression of the early 1990s.  Our leaders decided that they didn’t need the all of those extra Air Force bases they had in Southern California, so they were closed; just like that.  The result was economic devastation in the region that rivaled the widely publicized Texas S&L fiasco.  However, because the government caused it, no one gave a shit about all of the young families who lost their homes or street after street of boarded up houses abandoned to the wealthy loan companies who received government funds to “shore up” their windfall.  Again, I lost my retirement.

Years later, after weathering a divorce and the constant struggle trying to build some momentum with my business, I find myself once again beginning to finally pick up some speed.  Then came the .COM bust and the 911 nightmare.  Our leaders decided that all aircraft were grounded for what seemed like an eternity; and long after that, ‘special’ facilities like San Francisco were on security alert for months.  This made access to my customers prohibitively expensive.  Ironically, after what they had done the Government came to the aid of the airlines with billions of our tax dollars … as usual they left me to rot and die while they bailed out their rich, incompetent cronies WITH MY MONEY!  After these events, there went my business but not quite yet all of my retirement and savings.

By this time, I’m thinking that it might be good for a change.  Bye to California, I’ll try Austin for a while.  So I moved, only to find out that this is a place with a highly inflated sense of self-importance and where damn little real engineering work is done.  I’ve never experienced such a hard time finding work.  The rates are 1/3 of what I was earning before the crash, because pay rates here are fixed by the three or four large companies in the area who are in collusion to drive down prices and wages… and this happens because the justice department is all on the take and doesn’t give a fuck about serving anyone or anything but themselves and their rich buddies.

To survive, I was forced to cannibalize my savings and retirement, the last of which was a small IRA.  This came in a year with mammoth expenses and not a single dollar of income.  I filed no return that year thinking that because I didn’t have any income there was no need.  The sleazy government decided that they disagreed.  But they didn’t notify me in time for me to launch a legal objection so when I attempted to get a protest filed with the court I was told I was no longer entitled to due process because the time to file ran out.  Bend over for another $10,000 helping of justice.

So now we come to the present.  After my experience with the CPA world, following the business crash I swore that I’d never enter another accountant’s office again.  But here I am with a new marriage and a boatload of undocumented income, not to mention an expensive new business asset, a piano, which I had no idea how to handle.  After considerable thought I decided that it would be irresponsible NOT to get professional help; a very big mistake.

When we received the forms back I was very optimistic that they were in order.  I had taken all of the years information to Bill Ross, and he came back with results very similar to what I was expecting.  Except that he had neglected to include the contents of Sheryl’s unreported income; $12,700 worth of it. To make matters worse, Ross knew all along this was missing and I didn’t have a clue until he pointed it out in the middle of the audit.  By that time it had become brutally evident that he was representing himself and not me.

This left me stuck in the middle of this disaster trying to defend transactions that have no relationship to anything tax-related (at least the tax-related transactions were poorly documented).  Things I never knew anything about and things my wife had no clue would ever matter to anyone.  The end result is… well, just look around.

I remember reading about the stock market crash before the “great” depression and how there were wealthy bankers and businessmen jumping out of windows when they realized they screwed up and lost everything.  Isn’t it ironic how far we’ve come in 60 years in this country that they now know how to fix that little economic problem; they just steal from the middle class (who doesn’t have any say in it, elections are a joke) to cover their asses and it’s “business-as-usual”.  Now when the wealthy fuck up, the poor get to die for the mistakes… isn’t that a clever, tidy solution.

As government agencies go, the FAA is often justifiably referred to as a tombstone agency, though they are hardly alone.  The recent presidential puppet GW Bush and his cronies in their eight years certainly reinforced for all of us that this criticism rings equally true for all of the government.  Nothing changes unless there is a body count (unless it is in the interest of the wealthy sows at the government trough).  In a government full of hypocrites from top to bottom, life is as cheap as their lies and their self-serving laws.

I know I’m hardly the first one to decide I have had all I can stand.  It has always been a myth that people have stopped dying for their freedom in this country, and it isn’t limited to the blacks, and poor immigrants.  I know there have been countless before me and there are sure to be as many after.  But I also know that by not adding my body to the count, I insure nothing will change.  I choose to not keep looking over my shoulder at “big brother” while he strips my carcass, I choose not to ignore what is going on all around me, I choose not to pretend that business as usual won’t continue; I have just had enough.

I can only hope that the numbers quickly get too big to be white washed and ignored that the American zombies wake up and revolt; it will take nothing less.  I would only hope that by striking a nerve that stimulates the inevitable double standard, knee-jerk government reaction that results in more stupid draconian restrictions people wake up and begin to see the pompous political thugs and their mindless minions for what they are.  Sadly, though I spent my entire life trying to believe it wasn’t so, but violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer.  The cruel joke is that the really big chunks of shit at the top have known this all along and have been laughing, at and using this awareness against, fools like me all along.

I saw it written once that the definition of insanity is repeating the same process over and over and expecting the outcome to suddenly be different.  I am finally ready to stop this insanity.  Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let’s try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well.

 

The communist creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed."

 

Joe Stack (1956-2010)

02/18/2010

#politics

Comments 1 - 40 of 40        Search these comments

1   Leigh   2010 Feb 19, 4:56am  

In fear of being wire tapped by Big Brother I'm gonna keep this brief and simple (trust me, my life ain't worth tapping into;O) He's not alone in his thoughts though not sure violence is the answer. Some times I wonder if we are all just one event away from a psychotic episode? I just hope I deal w/ mine a little more effectively and more in isolation as to not harm innocent folks. I do think, though, that he would have had an even bigger impact if he flew his plane into something like AIG or Goldman Sachs but maybe that's my own personal frustration w/ the system shining through? I think the IRS is just the messenger, not the source.

In the end, not sure much will become of this because of the level apathy among the common folks...unfortunately.

2   Vicente   2010 Feb 19, 5:28am  

Did Joe Stack do any prison time?

It's implied he "lost 10 years" during his first attempt at organized tax-evasion conspiracy, that HOME CHURCH SCAM thing, but he never says prison. Maybe he just got a fine and realized he had wasted 10 years on a failed attempt to get religious tax exemption.

After that I expect he was on a MISSION FROM GOD and the IRS had him on file as a known tax-cheat, so every time they pulled him in to nitpick again, it just added to the size of the chip on his shoulder.

Wicked commentary on Mister Nutbar Manifesto here:

http://rimbosity.com/writings/joe-stack-translated.html

3   NDrLoR   2010 Feb 19, 6:38am  

Wicked commentary on Mister Nutbar Manifesto here:

http://rimbosity.com/writings/joe-stack-translated.html

I think the one or two-sentence synopsis are quite accurate--BTW, I don't believe he was ever imprisoned. He was no more effective in evading taxes than he was in running a business.

4   Leigh   2010 Feb 19, 11:32am  

oh, now I'm curious about the details of this guy's life. I didn't consider that he might have started a church but it makes some sense in a way. I'm not exactly a big fan of organized religion, heck, I am a recovering Catholic myself.

He should have tried starting a church in Oregon. I swear we have one every mile or so and few are your traditional Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, LDS, etc.

5   elliemae   2010 Feb 19, 2:10pm  

Vicente says

Wicked commentary on Mister Nutbar Manifesto here:
http://rimbosity.com/writings/joe-stack-translated.html

That made me laugh my ass off (which is a lot of laughing...).

The guy was angry and crazy - and he killed some innocent people. What a selfish SOB.

6   Â¥   2010 Feb 19, 6:07pm  

That commentary was my initial take, too.

I looked at the html source when the manifesto was still live and saw it was written in Office 2000.

That a tech professional wouldn't have an MSDN subscription is so, so sad.

Bona-fide contractors with business can do very well with all the deductions and stuff, especially during downtimes when Congress throws open the gates of Accelerated Depreciation etc. Much better than W-2 workers, other than the lack of easy access to bullet-proof group health care.

7   nope   2010 Feb 19, 11:53pm  

I have a few questions about this incident:

1. Why are these guys always engineers? You're giving us a bad name, assholes.

2. What on earth was this guy actually mad about? Yeah, he mentions taxes and government, vaguely, but it seems more like he's just rambling. I've read the "manifesto" three times and I honestly can't make sense of it. Suicide letter fail!

3. How is this not terrorism?

- Guy A flies a plane into a federal building, hoping to send a message to the government.
- Guy B flies a plane into a federal building, hoping to send a message to the government.

4. I wonder if this guy understood how much of my tax dollars he wasted by crashing his plane into a building.

8   PeopleUnited   2010 Feb 20, 12:03am  

Kevin says

I wonder if this guy understood how much of my tax dollars he wasted by crashing his plane into a building.

Good point. This guy was a complete moron. But not a terrorist, just a glorified wannabe revolutionary who didn't have the guts to LIVE and do the right thing.

9   elliemae   2010 Feb 20, 12:56am  

So many definitions of terroist exist. This guy meets many of them - for example, Dictionary.com defines terroist as "a person who frightens or terrorizes others." However, there is always someone on this forum who must find an argument.

From the manifesto:
"During 1987, I spent close to $5000 of my ‘pocket change’, and at least 1000 hours of my time writing, printing, and mailing to any senator, congressman, governor, or slug that might listen; none did, and they universally treated me as if I was wasting their time. I spent countless hours on the L.A. freeways driving to meetings and any and all of the disorganized professional groups who were attempting to mount a campaign against this atrocity. This, only to discover that our efforts were being easily derailed by a few moles from the brokers who were just beginning to enjoy the windfall from the new declaration of their “freedom”. Oh, and don’t forget, for all of the time I was spending on this, I was loosing income that I couldn’t bill clients."

He chose to spend his time, energy & money in fighting a system, and failed time & again. Interesting that this is someone else's fault. He could have saved alot of time and trouble (and innocent lives) if he had simply killed himself long ago.

10   nope   2010 Feb 20, 3:41am  

AdHominem says

Kevin says

I wonder if this guy understood how much of my tax dollars he wasted by crashing his plane into a building.

Good point. This guy was a complete moron. But not a terrorist, just a glorified wannabe revolutionary who didn’t have the guts to LIVE and do the right thing.

So why are suicide bombers who do the exact same thing called "terrorists"? They both have the same objective -- changing a system that isn't doing what they want. They both harm innocent people to send their "message". What is the difference?

Do you believe Tim McVeigh was a terrorist? If not, why not? If so, how were his actions any different from Joe Stack's, other than Stack killing himself in the process?

11   PeopleUnited   2010 Feb 20, 3:49am  

Well, in my humble opinion a terrorist is part of larger violent movement.

Of course if you ask Britain, George Washington was a terrorist. If you ask Abe Lincoln, Robert E Lee was a traitor and a terrorist, when actually Sherman was the greater terror advocate. The designation terrorist is in the eye of the beholder. You can call this psycho a terrorist if you like, but I think it discredits the real terrorists and over-glorifys this lone psycho.

12   nope   2010 Feb 20, 4:07am  

AdHominem says

Well, in my humble opinion a terrorist is part of larger violent movement.

So Tim McVeigh was not a terrorist? Kaczynski was not a terrorist? Will you call it terrorism when we start to see more organized patterns of violence, as advocated by many members of various populist movements? Because we absolutely will see more Joe Stack's over the next few years.

The kind of life experiences that drive people to become a Joe Stack are the same as those that drive people to become any of the random kids who blow themselves up on planes. If Joe had been given help and instruction from some larger planner, would his motivations have been any different?

Of course if you ask Britain, George Washington was a terrorist. If you ask Abe Lincoln, Robert E Lee was a traitor and a terrorist, when actually Sherman was the greater terror advocate. The designation terrorist is in the eye of the beholder. You can call this psycho a terrorist if you like, but I think it discredits the real terrorists and over-glorifys this lone psycho.

That's actually the *point*. By treating so-called "terrorists" like some sort of evil supervillians to create a good-vs-evil narrative, we ignore the real issue.

This is why there can be no "victory" in the war on terror. As long as people are faced with situations that make them angry enough to kill innocents to get their message across, there will be terrorism. It's high time that we faced that fact and stopped treating terrorists the way that we might treat a military threat.

13   elliemae   2010 Feb 20, 4:38am  

AdHominem says

Well, in my humble opinion a terrorist is part of larger violent movement.

First time you've presented your opinion as humble. Of course, your humility lasted one sentence, but that's progress and we're all more than a little proud of you. (elliemae dabs a tear from her eye)

AdHominem says

You can call this psycho a terrorist if you like, but I think it discredits the real terrorists and over-glorifys this lone psycho.

I know that "real terrorists" are thrilled you're on their side and concerned about their status. Let us know if they thank you directly.

14   PeopleUnited   2010 Feb 20, 5:47am  

I agree there can be NO victory in the "war on terror"

so how do we prevent Kevin says

The kind of life experiences that drive people to become a Joe Stack

?

15   Â¥   2010 Feb 20, 6:14am  

Kevin says

It’s high time that we faced that fact and stopped treating terrorists the way that we might treat a military threat.

We live in a society where the Deputy Sheriffs are successfully suing to stop early release of inmates.

Our military's job isn't to defeat terrorism, it's to make business for itself. And business is good.

16   elliemae   2010 Feb 20, 6:17am  

AdHominem says

so how do we prevent Kevin says
The kind of life experiences that drive people to become a Joe Stack
?

We can't prevent the life experiences - because they're not what drives people to do crazy things. The people themselves are crazy. Everyone reacts differently to situations. What makes some people laugh can make others angry. Sometimes there are warning signs, sometimes there aren't.

Ya never know.

17   PeopleUnited   2010 Feb 20, 6:46am  

Troy says

Kevin says

It’s high time that we faced that fact and stopped treating terrorists the way that we might treat a military threat.

We live in a society where the Deputy Sheriffs are successfully suing to stop early release of inmates.
Our military’s job isn’t to defeat terrorism, it’s to make business for itself. And business is good.

And yet the prisons are already too full. Doesn't USA have one of the highest incarceration rates in the world?

"Well we're in the Nazi killing business and business is booming!" -Waldo The Apache

18   PeopleUnited   2010 Feb 20, 6:48am  

elliemae says

AdHominem says

so how do we prevent Kevin says

The kind of life experiences that drive people to become a Joe Stack

?

We can’t prevent the life experiences - because they’re not what drives people to do crazy things. The people themselves are crazy. Everyone reacts differently to situations. What makes some people laugh can make others angry. Sometimes there are warning signs, sometimes there aren’t.
Ya never know.

Ah yes, the whole nature vs. nuture. Probably a little of both. So keep an eye on your neighbor, if you see him loading his plane or car with excessive fuel, alert the authorities.

19   elliemae   2010 Feb 20, 7:20am  

AdHominem says

Ah yes, the whole nature vs. nuture.

Do you know what that means? Because just throwing out stuff you read on the interweb or half-heard in high school don't make for a pertinent argument.

20   PeopleUnited   2010 Feb 20, 12:13pm  

Does everything have to be an insult or argument with you? I was just making conversation. Demons. Demons. The Devil made me do it.

Well if that is how you want to play I can just about guess but... are you single, divorced or both?

21   Vicente   2010 Feb 20, 3:51pm  

So Adhominem, what makes mass-murderers so appealing to you? This nature-vs-nurture fascination is because your parents never showed affection isn't it? Please, do go on.

22   elliemae   2010 Feb 20, 9:29pm  

AdHominem says

Does everything have to be an insult or argument with you? I was just making conversation. Demons. Demons. The Devil made me do it.

Sometimes you almost get it and it seems like you can actively participate in an adult conversation. But then you toss out comments that seem to be designed to appear to make you smarter. No one mentioned "nature vs nurture" and it simply doesn't fit there. Another of my favorite Adhom comments was about the "Electric Kool-aid Acid Test," which provided many laughs all around (thank you!).

Your problem is that you aren't "just making conversation," you assert yourself to be a quasi-expert on subjects about which you contain little knowledge and spend a chunk of time posturing. I'm going to tell you something that will probably hurt your feelings: you need about 30 more years of actual life before you will understand most of the subjects about which you are currently speaking.

Real life. Not internet life.

AdHominem says

Well if that is how you want to play I can just about guess but… are you single, divorced or both?

Wow. Personal attacks. People usually resort to them when they lack substance. But then again, according to dictionary.com "ad hominem" means:

1.appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2.attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

You chose your name well.

23   PeopleUnited   2010 Feb 21, 3:55am  

Vicente says

So Adhominem, what makes mass-murderers so appealing to you? This nature-vs-nurture fascination is because your parents never showed affection isn’t it? Please, do go on.

elliemae says

AdHominem says

Does everything have to be an insult or argument with you? I was just making conversation. Demons. Demons. The Devil made me do it.

Sometimes you almost get it and it seems like you can actively participate in an adult conversation. But then you toss out comments that seem to be designed to appear to make you smarter. No one mentioned “nature vs nurture” and it simply doesn’t fit there. Another of my favorite Adhom comments was about the “Electric Kool-aid Acid Test,” which provided many laughs all around (thank you!).
Your problem is that you aren’t “just making conversation,” you assert yourself to be a quasi-expert on subjects about which you contain little knowledge and spend a chunk of time posturing. I’m going to tell you something that will probably hurt your feelings: you need about 30 more years of actual life before you will understand most of the subjects about which you are currently speaking.
Real life. Not internet life.
AdHominem says

Well if that is how you want to play I can just about guess but… are you single, divorced or both?

Wow. Personal attacks. People usually resort to them when they lack substance. But then again, according to dictionary.com “ad hominem” means:
1.appealing to one’s prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one’s intellect or reason.

2.attacking an opponent’s character rather than answering his argument.
You chose your name well.

I agree I did choose my name well. The whole of these past two messages is Ad Hominem. My name is to call reference to the mindset of the great people of patrick.net which is by and large, especially when it comes to Ellie May and Nomograss.... Ad Hominem Ad Infinitum.

When you address me as a human being and address my posts with honest and sincere respect perhaps you will get some in return. Till then expect Ad Hominem for your Ad Hominem.

Which is it single, divorced or both?

24   elliemae   2010 Feb 21, 4:45am  

When your friends, "By" and "Large," ask me a question, I shall answer.

Your turn.

25   PeopleUnited   2010 Feb 21, 5:07am  

Is this is a popularity contest? Or just a bunch of left wing bullies with keyboards?

elliemae says

We can’t prevent the life experiences - because they’re not what drives people to do crazy things.

Ellie says it is nature not nurture (in so many words).

Kevin says

The kind of life experiences that drive people to become a Joe Stack are the same as those that drive people to become any of the random kids who blow themselves up on planes.

Kevin says it is nurture more so than nature (in so many words).

elliemae says

No one mentioned “nature vs nurture” and it simply doesn’t fit there.

Ellie says "you don't know &*%*%^*& about nature vs. nurture. Ellie implies she is the expert on the field and keeper of the faith and no Libertarian has a right to comment on such issues which are clearly over the heads of anyone who doesn't have a load of "friends" like Nomograss and other left liberal bullies on this site.

elliemae says

When your friends, “By” and “Large,” ask me a question, I shall answer.

Ellies says "I am so popular that I can be as big a dick as I want so there."

Uh good one ellie you sure know your nature vs. nurture. So are you an ass by nature or did you have to be trained?

26   elliemae   2010 Feb 21, 5:21am  

Seriously, that's all you've got? You're silly.

27   PeopleUnited   2010 Feb 21, 5:28am  

Nice comeback, your grandma called: she wants it back (along with the panties you borrowed last week).

Does it bother you that your premise about no one bringing up nature vs. nurture was BLOWN out the water? Is english your second language, just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

28   elliemae   2010 Feb 21, 6:27am  

AdHominem says

Does it bother you that your premise about no one bringing up nature vs. nurture was BLOWN out the water?

Actually, it wasn't. I didn't respond beyond the "silly" comment because you didn't prove anything - other than that you're silly. You aren't taken seriously by anyone other than yourself, from what I can see.

Perhaps when you're done fantasizing about my grandmother's underwear we'll be able to have an intelligent conversation.

29   nope   2010 Feb 21, 7:44am  

elliemae says

AdHominem says

so how do we prevent Kevin says

The kind of life experiences that drive people to become a Joe Stack

?

We can’t prevent the life experiences - because they’re not what drives people to do crazy things. The people themselves are crazy. Everyone reacts differently to situations. What makes some people laugh can make others angry. Sometimes there are warning signs, sometimes there aren’t.
Ya never know.

So you're telling me every kid who has ever blown himself up at a dance club in Israel is "crazy"?

I just don't buy that any more than I buy that the columbine kids were "crazy".

Were Americans collectively "crazy" when we nuked Japan, or were we just really really pissed off?

Everyone has a different point at which they become so frustrated that they turn to violence. For the Joe Stack's of the world perhaps that point was reached when he was doing his taxes and saw a large bill. For the dance club kids perhaps that point is reached when they see their siblings being blown up by a poorly targeted rocket.

So, yes, there is absolutely no way to prevent these events from ever happening. What we can do is reduce their frequency by being more sensitive to people's concerns, and not simply treating anyone with an opinion different from our own as though they were some combination of evil, crazy, and stupid.

30   PeopleUnited   2010 Feb 21, 8:24am  

Kevin says

So, yes, there is absolutely no way to prevent these events from ever happening. What we can do is reduce their frequency by being more sensitive to people’s concerns, and not simply treating anyone with an opinion different from our own as though they were some combination of evil, crazy, and stupid.

Well said Kevin. We also need to recognize and foster the ideals that were outlined in the Declaration of Independence.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Had we followed our own founders reasoning we would not be occupying military bases and sovereign nations ALL over the world.

31   elliemae   2010 Feb 21, 9:01am  

Kevin says

So you’re telling me every kid who has ever blown himself up at a dance club in Israel is “crazy”?
I just don’t buy that any more than I buy that the columbine kids were “crazy”.
Were Americans collectively “crazy” when we nuked Japan, or were we just really really pissed off?
Everyone has a different point at which they become so frustrated that they turn to violence. For the Joe Stack’s of the world perhaps that point was reached when he was doing his taxes and saw a large bill. For the dance club kids perhaps that point is reached when they see their siblings being blown up by a poorly targeted rocket.
So, yes, there is absolutely no way to prevent these events from ever happening. What we can do is reduce their frequency by being more sensitive to people’s concerns, and not simply treating anyone with an opinion different from our own as though they were some combination of evil, crazy, and stupid.

I agree. But the problem is that, with some people, they can't accept defeat and must blame others. Some people are permanent victims and become angry & bitter.

Please remember that Americans didn't collectively bomb Japan. They weren't asked if they wanted to bomb Japan either.

32   PeopleUnited   2010 Feb 21, 9:18am  

elliemae says

They weren’t asked if they wanted to bomb Japan either.

but I bet if they were asked 50% or more would have said bomb's away. Propaganda was the name of the game (and has been so ever since). So democracy is just mob rule. it is a dangerous thing to be at the mercy of the mob.

33   Vicente   2010 Feb 22, 2:18pm  

Great article from a CPA about Mister Nutbar:

In other words, the Andrew Stacks of the world lack the most fundamental trait required for their business success or personal happiness: Common sense. Andrew Stack was a fool, and that - rather than any sort of "government persecution" is why he ended up dead.
.....................
In short, I don't see Andrew Stack as either a terrorist or a victim. I see him as a fool. Ask any CPA who does tax work, and he'll probably be able to tell you of more than one Andrew Stack he's met over the years. I've met them, I've tried to help them, and I've watched them ruin their own lives and the lives of others. I have no sympathy for their "plight" because their plight is always something they've worked quite hard to acquire. It's what fools do.

I've met Andrew Stack....

34   nope   2010 Feb 22, 3:02pm  

Eh, the argument laid out in that article is bullshit too. You don't kill yourself (and others) because you want to avoid paying taxes -- you do such acts because you don't see any other option, and you want to hurt the people that you feel are responsible.

That's not any different from what Tim McVeigh or the 9-11 hijackers were doing.

Frankly, I don't really care if we call it terrorism or not, but whatever we call it we must not pretend like these are just fundamentally different things. If you make someone sufficiently angry, they will react with violence. Arbitrarily deciding that certain causes of anger justify a special label is absurd.

35   Austinhousingbubble   2010 Feb 22, 11:39pm  

Joe Stack was a domestic terrorist and I suspect he may not be such a unique case.

A week before the incident, I was sitting in traffic discussing the financial headlines of the day with my wife and wondering how many ticking time-bombs were being created as we spoke. I might not have guessed one would go off right in my backyard a week later, but ultimately, I was more surprised at my lack of surprise. The fact is, everyone alive has the propensity for craziness and/or evil. Our thresholds differ, and in the case of Stack, there may even have been a gland firing too much or not enough of something, but ultimately, Joe Stack does not strike me as uniquely fucked-up. Fucked-up -- but no Charles Whitman, for example. That's what's worrying.

When the hurricanes tore through Florida a few years back, leaving hundreds of households without electricity, domestic violence in the region spiked tremendously. No cold beer; no TV; no internet connection. The takeaway was that a surprising number of seemingly rational people are much closer to their tipping point than most people realize. In other words, a huge percentage of the public are miserable, delicate fuckers -- so watch your ass.

If it weren't for all the big Fuck Yous coming out of DC and Wall St., maybe a guy like Stack would have remained one in a million embittered tax evaders, but judging from his manifesto, I think the greatest financial swindle perpetrated on the American Tax Payer probably served as a catalyst, and will likely serve as a catalyst for other disillusioned and imbalanced people hovering a hairs width from the red line. Evidence to this effect can already be seen in headlines like: To Some, Suicide Attack on IRS Made Pilot a Hero. Nobody thought Charles Whitman was a hero.

36   Honest Abe   2010 Feb 23, 12:31am  

N Dr Lo R - so tell us about your classic car. Mine are a 1960 Buick Convertible, white with a red interior. A 1964 Plymouth Sport Fury 383/727 Red with a red interior and a 1961 Super Duty 389, four speed Pontiac Catalina, white with a burgundy interior - lettered up like an authentic drag car...Packer Pontiac (runs 12.85 @ 105).

37   Austinhousingbubble   2010 Feb 23, 12:00pm  

...A fine fleet of death cabs for piloting into your local IRS office. I don't know why, but I had Patrick.netters pegged more as Prius or PT Cruiser types.

Meanwhile, here's an interesting article from '98 by the the NYT about the tax law that helped nudge Stack over the edge.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/27/business/how-a-tax-law-helps-insure-a-scarcity-of-programmers.html?pagewanted=all

Below is a telling snippet that illustrates rather nicely how financial policy is more often than not designed to concentrate wealth from the individual business owner/self-employed to corporations and ultimately to Wall St.

"Critics say that the I.R.S. has recently stepped up its enforcement of the law in a way that effectively kills start-up programming businesses if their only employee is the founder.

The law, which was introduced by Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Democrat of New York, was estimated to raise $60 million over five years, a figure based on a belief by a staff member of the Congressional Joint Committee on Taxation that employees cheat less on their taxes than independent contractors do. That was enough money to pay for a tax break, approved with Mr. Moynihan's support, that was sought by I.B.M. for its overseas operations. Under the Gramm-Rudman deficit control act of the previous year, Congress was required to pay for any tax cuts with comparable revenue increases or spending cuts."

38   NDrLoR   2010 Feb 23, 1:25pm  

Uploaded by mistake

39   NDrLoR   2010 Feb 23, 1:33pm  

Honest Abe "N Dr Lo R - so tell us about your classic car."
First, yours are all nice, especially that '61 Super Duty Pontiac--those are the best Pontiacs ever made. If you think about it, a '51 is a doughty, sluggish old man's car riding on a 30's drivetrain--a '71 is an overweight, government regulated toad--but '61-'70, those cars put the "YAK" in Ponti-Yak!
I have a '53 Cadillac Series 62 Coupe and '56 Cadillac Coupe de Ville--both with original and complete factory air-conditioning. The '53 has 40K miles and I've owned it 20 years; the '56 has 55K. A 1962 Studebaker Lark two-door sedan with 24K miles, 259 V8 with stick-shift and overdrive, 3.73 Twin-Traction rear axle. Last, my fourth '77 Mercury Grand Marquis with 460 CID and 2.50 axle, 51K miles.

40   Honest Abe   2010 Feb 24, 9:52am  

Yea, the 61 Pontiac Catalina is my all time favorite car - but I like all the cars with "history". I bet most people didn't know the shift pattern of some of the old cars...had reverse at the "bottom" haha- a good way to drop a transmission.

Its cool that your Caddys have air-conditioning. With such low miles I bet they are worth some $$$. I like the Studebaker with only 24K miles. My dad had a 1950 Studebaker, black. It was cool. And your Merc, with a 460 and 2.50 axle - it probably will hit 180 mph on a straight stretch of road. Too much fun. Thanks for sharing.

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