patrick.net

There is nothing right or wrong in this country...there is only legal and illegal.
I believe you can do whatever with your property when you are in possesion...can someone enlighten me please ?

At least in some instances, you have to look at it like Scorched Earth policy, especially if you're removing appliances or upgrades that you provided to a place out of your own pocket.

the car loan will not be satisifed by just surrendering the car. You owe the difference between the amount they sell it for and your loan amount. Non-recourse loans only live in houses. And it is stuuuuupid.

lets see ... nothing down on some POS $300K stucco job in 2006, HELOC another $50K right away, never make a payment, live free for 2 years, get a short-sale offer to slow down the foreclosure process and gain another 6 months, and then remove the appliances and cabinets and carpet and plumbing fixtures and lighting fixtures and automatic garage opener ... you should go to prison.

… you should go to prison

So should all the investment bankers and all the people who made millions ( esp CEO's)...the sad part is that anything goes as long as its legal even though its outright fraud!!

Let's just end this madness right now by GIVING everyone the house of his or her choice, the non-negotiable "value" of which will be established by the government, based on the current available stock. One qualifies regardless of income, race, color or creed. Said house WILL DEPRECIATE automatically by 1% EACH YEAR AS LONG AS ONE OWNS IT. And if owner dies, house goes to someone else OUTSIDE THE FAMILY, and we begin the cycle anew. No inheritance, no deductions, no brokers, no mortgages, no bank involvement. Houses become FREE. No ridiculous prices, no more building unless and until all houses are inhabited. Current owners lose all tax benefits, which vanish. You pay maintenance and taxes (also set by the government, and they don't change) and for services as you need them. After all, everyone is entitled, right? This is only fair. All subject to the same rules, rich or poor. Oh, and you don't have to insure it because the government will do that. If it falls down in a quake or some such disaster, you just get another one. And if you decide to walk away from it, who cares? The government will find another sucker to fob it off on. We do not want anyone to feel deprived, now, do we, and we are all entitled, aren't we?

I am against it. Because it is senseless destruction as the livable house now is not. You take minutes to rip all the copper out of the walls the easy destructive way, and it takes tens of hours and how much money to put all that back? I also see this from the standpoint of removing a home from circulation which worsens the supply for those of us still waiting for the supply overhang to make homes affordable again. If we want to make this "OK" then just knock them down with bulldozers and be done with it.

I think if we simply executed everyone who dafaulted on their loans, we wouldn't have so many deadbeats (sort of like the opposite of what Chris Borden is suggesting).

homeowner_for ever_san jose says

There is nothing right or wrong in this country…there is only legal and illegal.
I believe you can do whatever with your property when you are in possesion…can someone enlighten me please ?

You definitely need enlightening.

With that train of thought, if you rent a house you can strip it down and sell the parts, turn it into a crack house, or whatever. I believe that there is right & wrong, and that it's important to be respectful of others (and their property) That's what I taught my kids.

Even i was taught the same thing and i live by it...unfotunately the country is headed in a different direction..there is no sense of decency and morals and ethics..looks like our standards have fallen so low that anything is OK in this country as long as its legal...where is the outrage ?

Right & wrong is binary.

Many years ago I rented a flat from an increasingly psychotic slum lord-ish landlady. The rent was affordable and it was a pretty cool little dump up above a business, (cool to me, anyway - think Philip Marlowe), so I dealt with the episodes of bizarreness and insanity from her as long as I could - nearly ten years. Throughout that time, whenever I needed something fixed, I was attacked, so I learned to fix things myself, from plumbing to basic wiring. Throughout the years, I also updated or restored things, from paint, light fixtures (replacing the single bulbs hung from the ceiling) floor tiles, grout, wall plates, the air conditioning units and even refinished the wood floors myself. I liked my place looking good. Anyway, when my insane landlady finally cracked me, and I had to beat it, you can bet your ass I took everything I put into that place along with me, even if it ended up going in the dumpster. I didn't even let them keep the locks I had installed. I wasn't leaving anything that came out of my pocket that might have proven useful to my landlady in the slightest. This was my rendition of Scorched Earth Policy.

Maybe in most of the cases of preforeclosure gutting, it's just low-life takers doing what they do best; but I'd bet at least a percentage of the instances are similar to what mine was; they're taking back what they put into the place as a nice fuck you to the banks.

not to move the arguement from housing, but the truth is there is a sect of America that even feels illegal, immoral, and indecent behavior should be accepted. They feel so strogly that they spend millions getting politicos and media to adjust the laws and/or to change the social views of these behaviors. Bringing things back to a very basic and absolute view of right and wrong would be great.

We have a lot of morals and decency which anyone who has lived outside the US would realize. The problem is that we tighten what we consider decent down with time and become more inline with each other over time and always find "new" problems to concern ourselves with.

Look at stores with self checkout. That wouldn't be possible in most countries.

Playing music at 3am in the morning? That isn't decent anymore.

Running a car down the street pumping out clouds of black smoke? That isn't decent anymore.

When driving we stop at stop signs, even when there aren't other cars around. That is us behaving morally and because we know everyone is better off doing it.

There might be laws preventing us from doing many of these things, but there isn't enough enforcement to do anything about it if people actually chose NOT to behave properly. The fact is, most people do, and we can live with a fairly moderate police force.

These things aren't available in many countries. There is always going to be a low life around that breaks the rules and is easy to point out, but in general how many people are ripping apart their houses and running? VERY few. If you took a city of 100,000 and looked in every house, I bet you woudln't find more than 1 or 2 who had this done, IF that. There might be a couple of cities where this has become the "norm" but if you look at the broader picture, you won't see this.

Patrick,

Could you unmoderate my 10:14 AM post? It has no links or bad language. Maybe just mispellings, grammer errors or logic flaws.

pkennedy,

You make a valid point, but let me add:

Look at stores with self checkout. That wouldn’t be possible in most countries.

That is because the self checkouts are monitored. The stores are just as watchful for shoplifters whether they pass through a certain aisle or not. Think of the occasional vending machine that is broken and gives away free product. Once the word gets out, the machine is emptied fast. Consider also the case where a customer buys a box of chicken nuggets, and finds a battered and fried chicken head amongst the product. Will the average fellow just be repulsed for a moment, then have a laugh with his friends about it, then turn the box back in for a replacement? Or will he whip out his mobile phone camera to document the atrocity, then decide what lawyer to call so he can file for his lawsuit lottery?

Playing music at 3am in the morning? That isn’t decent anymore

True, but nothing is done about the mufflerless Harley riders that bust eardrums at all hours. Many a summer outing is spoiled by these assholes when they ride through parks and beachfronts that have easy road access.

Running a car down the street pumping out clouds of black smoke? That isn’t decent anymore.

That has more to do with state inspections than courtesy. Besides, look how many people still text, use the phone, or are intoxicated when they drive. They couldn't care less about endangering lives as long as they are not inconvenienced.

When driving we stop at stop signs, even when there aren’t other cars around. That is us behaving morally and because we know everyone is better off doing it.

That happens when the cost is low, as in little traffic to slow you up. Check out intersections during rush hour, and you will see plenty of red light runners. So many people want to run lights that it is controversial when a locality wants to set up red light cameras. Not just legitimate concerns like shortening the yellow light duration, but just the fact of having red light cameras at all.

It's pretty hard to get into major details in a thread on such a large topic with so many cultures involved, but when in other countries there are *real* checks for shop lifting. People everywhere employed for it, people watching the watchers. The people 'watching" self check counters are hardly watching. Most are staring at the wall waiting for someone to get stuck and to go help them. If any person wanted to walk out with goods it would be incredibly easy, but the majority don't. The checkers are there for a modest reminder to keep people honest, but you'll never convince someone that they're eagle eyes are there to catch shop lifters. Usually they're staring off into no where when I'm going through.

There are always "loud" people, but in general society doesn't accept it any longer. I'm not sure the number of Harley riders to citizens there are, but I'm sure it's a pretty large number. The average honesty level in america is amazing. Not solely because of laws, but because that is how we are.

I'm not sure where you are driving, but in the Bay Area people aren't running that many red lights. Those red light cameras are nailing about 7 people a day each (MAX). If you look up the stats they're only getting about 60 per month. Of course at $400 each, it makes them money. I'm not talking about red lights either, I'm talking about stop signs. People stop for them. If they don't and you are noticing them, it is because it's not the "norm". You don't notice when someone has green grass in their front lawn, but you sure notice if they've got 6 foot weeds growing in it.

We take the minority and blow it up and think it's the majority, when that isn't the case.

A few things that follow with honesty:
- Higher level of productivity. The higher the honesty level in a country the higher the productivity output in general
- Smaller households. The more "honest" we are, the more likely we are to live alone because our points of view on "everything" don't mesh. Try living with your closest 12 relatives and see how well that works out. You would be at each other throats quickly if you're truly honest about everything. Our honesty forces us to leave home at an earlier age. We are too "honest" with our parents. Honest and independence are linked in a way. One forces the other upon us.

Why do we hate the "games" realtors play? Because we hate the dishonest we feel when dealing with them. If honesty wasn't the "norm" we would just consider it normal and have "methods" for dealing with it. We have lost many of our methods for dealing with dishonesty, we're taken very easily because we're so used to dealing with honesty in general.

If you've visited poor countries, you'll find that they are very cautious when buying anything or dealing with anyone. That there is a lot more "social" networking going on and a lot more discussions going on with each negotiation. Their methods are all about looking for dishonesty even if they don't realize it, that is essentially what they are doing.

zzyzzx, surely you knew I was being sarcastic...but I'm not sure you did....

Bringing things back to a very basic and absolute view of right and wrong would be great.

Again, right and wrong is binary. Okay for machines - not so great for human beings.

Consider also the case where a customer buys a box of chicken nuggets, and finds a battered and fried chicken head amongst the product. Will the average fellow just be repulsed for a moment, then have a laugh with his friends about it, then turn the box back in for a replacement? Or will he whip out his mobile phone camera to document the atrocity, then decide what lawyer to call so he can file for his lawsuit lottery?

I would be more disturbed by the former scenario, actually - in which a bizarrely detached customer has a quick chuckle before exchanging the offending deep-fried chicken head for some proper pigeon Mcnuggets.

You really made me laugh with that!

How about the folks that take out every last bit of equity that the bank allows and then stop making payments? I don't know how many times I see homes that were purchased 15-20 years ago for 35-50K but then get listed as a short sale at over 350K and it's obvious the money was NOT put back into the house as updates/remodels. Or homes that were purchased in the past 5-7 years, no permits pulled=no major remodel, yet a short sale listed at 200-300K over purchase price 5-7 years ago. Where did all the money go...vacations? new cars? Sometimes I see that the equity was pulled to buy a second home, then the first gets foreclosed on? WTF? I think the bank should take the second home, the new cars and all their dang vacation pictures.

But from what I understand, the banks are soooo overwhelmed with foreclosures that it's taking 12 months or more to even begin the foreclosure process. People are living in these homes rent free.

Everyone sitting around waiting for their taxpayer funded bailout?!?! We whine about taxpayer funded health care but cheer on taxpayer funded cash for clunkers and increasing and extending the home buyer's credit in a weak attempt to sustain this false economy...what the heck.

Don't worry, it's all going to blow up in our faces really soon. Those of us who didn't participate will pay. That's what bailouts are all about: Rewarding the greedy and the stupid at the expense of the smart. Love those rules.

BTW, I believe we need real punishment for EVERYONE involved in this Ponzi scheme, from bankers to greed "conned"-sumers. But I don't look for that, as long as the powers that be will try to continue the illusion of the debt-based economy at any cost. Oh, and don't mean to put a damper on your debt party, but how are you going to pay for the forced health care that's coming? What? You actually believe it will be affordable? They aren't even telling you what it will cost, but rather cramming it down your throat. Your overpriced house won't save you. You lose! We all lose! Change is coming, and you won't like it.

chrisborden says

BTW, I believe we need real punishment for EVERYONE involved in this Ponzi scheme, from bankers to greed “conned”-sumers. But I don’t look for that, as long as the powers that be will try to continue the illusion of the debt-based economy at any cost. Oh, and don’t mean to put a damper on your debt party, but how are you going to pay for the forced health care that’s coming? What? You actually believe it will be affordable? They aren’t even telling you what it will cost, but rather cramming it down your throat. Your overpriced house won’t save you. You lose! We all lose! Change is coming, and you won’t like it.

I'm an RN on the front lines of this. Don't get me started. I could save us billions in the current system if they'd just listen to me;O) Let me give you an example: insurance reimburses 4X the amount for a spinal fusion vs a discectomy. Yet, the fusion rarely relieves chronic pain. Then add to it all the tools and hardware needed for these fusions that must be purchased. You figure it out.

chrisborden says

BTW, I believe we need real punishment for EVERYONE involved in this Ponzi scheme, from bankers to greed “conned”-sumers. But I don’t look for that, as long as the powers that be will try to continue the illusion of the debt-based economy at any cost. Oh, and don’t mean to put a damper on your debt party, but how are you going to pay for the forced health care that’s coming? What? You actually believe it will be affordable? They aren’t even telling you what it will cost, but rather cramming it down your throat. Your overpriced house won’t save you. You lose! We all lose! Change is coming, and you won’t like it.

Oh, and two examples from this week. Two pt's will be needing either chronic dialysis the rest of their lives or kidney transplants thanks to untreated hypertension. You can chalk that up to being uninsured due to working crappy jobs that offer no bennies. It would be great if our health care system had a massive paradigm shift and focused more on preventative medicine but then it's dang hard to make money on illness and disease all the while trying to prevent it.

Leigh - I've said it many times: THEY need to talk to us, the people on the front lines. We're the ones who see the asinine decisions that cost the rest of us millions in grants & tax incentives to providers & insurance companies.

But people's hatred of socialized medicine (aka healthcare for all) and lack of understanding of the current system has once again highjacked a thread. The question here was whether or not it's ethical to gut a house because the bank is foreclosing.

Nope. It's stealing. And my mommy told me that stealing was bad.

Nope. It’s stealing.

From whom? The bank?

Unless it's stuff that came out of your pocket, in which case, you'd be a fool to leave it behind -- then perhaps, but I still can't muster much sympathy for any bank, let alone any moral arguments on their behalf.

...granted, I am not defending the type of nitwits as seen in in that video that Patrick posted, which I only just watched. But I think they and the banks deserve one another.

Let's see now. I go to the casino, bet every dime I own and lose. But because I believe I should be guaranteed a winning hand on my "investment," (and I'm still trying to figure out just where it says one should NEVER LOSE on a house) I feel it is my right to burn down the house because they won't refund my money. OK, then, by that "logic," because I hate the new car I just bought, I feel it is my duty to make a statement about Suzukis by going down to the dealership and vandalizing every car in sight to "get back" at the salesman for duping me into buying an inferior car. What is the difference between my fantasy and someone trashing a house because it "didn't work out" for him? I'd like to get back at the dealer, but I made a choice, and I choose to live with it and learn to do better research next time. At least I learned a lesson, unlike people who buy houses they can't afford then blame banks (who are also entirely culpable) for their mistakes.

How can these people say they own the house when they still owe X amount of dollars. Take my neighbor for example. Bought 4 years ago for $415K using an 80-20. Re-did some floors, re-tiled the kitchen and bath, new sinks and went stainless steel with kitchen appliances nothing extensive. Due to the crazy market his house appreciated to $550K in a short time. He pulled out the equity and bought a small business/cafe. Well, the economy showed signs of slowing. Last year about this time he pulled out the remaining equity (now owes the bank $660K) and stopped making payments and has been living free ever since. SO he made three years of mortgage payments, mostly interest of course, yet pulls out $200K and has been living for free for about a year?!!?

How can that NOT be stealing?

Austinhousingbubble says

…granted, I am not defending the type of nitwits as seen in in that video that Patrick posted, which I only just watched. But I think they and the banks deserve one another.

But no one held a gun to their heads and told them to buy. They spent money, usually the bank's, to rehab the house into a granite countertopped, stainless applianced McMansion. They spend months not paying the payment and enjoying homes that would made HGTV so proud... They drank the koolaid and now they want thier money back 'cause it tasted like colored sugar water after all. The banks were riding the wave too - but if the tables were turned and the homeowners made a shitload of money (and the bust never happened), the banks wouldn't be asking for part of the profits earned.

Stealing like the example above, destroying the property because they "put money into it" (that also was their choice), and trashing the home are wrong. It's not okay just because the banks aren't bending over backward to change the terms of the loans. We gave billions of bailout monies to banks and now we want them to make loans to the same people who can't pay them anyway?

>> There is nothing right or wrong in this country…there is only legal and illegal.

Many people seem to be acting according to this principle, except they have taken it one step further:

There is nothing right or wrong in this country…there is only "got caught" or "got away with it".

To me this is a fascinating 'moral story'
It is like watching two bullies fighting out... I am enjoying it from the sidelines :-)

A society based on moral relativism cannot stand.

Bap33 says

not to move the arguement from housing, but the truth is there is a sect of America that even feels illegal, immoral, and indecent behavior should be accepted. They feel so strogly that they spend millions getting politicos and media to adjust the laws and/or to change the social views of these behaviors. Bringing things back to a very basic and absolute view of right and wrong would be great.

figured I'd save myself some time and just hit repeat. lol

Bringing things back to a very basic and absolute view of right and wrong would be great.

Outside of absolutes, I'd like to see some enforcement of current laws--equally to business leaders and consumers. I'm not too surprised how some people hyperleveraged and gutted their homes/equity--seeing how many corporations essentially did the same with their assets.

When you give idiots money (especially FAKE money) they will gamble.

This is not hard. The house is collateral for the loan. If you don't pay the loan the collateral reverts to the lender. Trashing it is stealing. No hard moral issues to figure out. If you feel the bank in some way defrauded you then you have a right to file for legal recourse, not take vigilante justice.

The example of bailing out the banks is very bad for national morals.

Once people see so clearly that the banks don't "get foreclosed on" no matter how bad they are, then people feel justified in cheating the banks.

We need moral leadership willing to let the banks fail.

Maybe I'm being too hasty though. The FDIC has shut down quite a lot of banks lately, though I'd bet you the bankers come out of it just fine.

Bob2356,

Here's a harder moral issue for you:
Is it morally ok for you (personally) to forcibly throw a family out on the street because you can?

Here's what banks are starting to do, so be careful if you choose to be a home gutter...

Suppose you walk away from the house and stop paying. The house sits and you expect the bank to take it over and deal with it. But they DON'T. The house stays in your name. All fines and levies for abandonment and blight go on YOU. The bank will levy a lien against the property for far more than the house is worth, meaning you can't sell it and take anything. So while you're off trying to rebuild your life living somewhere else, the house and all its problems remain yours.

I see alot of this sort of proprty damage in friends' rentals and it's a testament to the character of the person who commits the act. They do it because they can get away with it and they have no investment, emotional or financial, in the property. You can't squeeze blood from a turnip so they have nothing to lose. You can sue them, but they'll just tell you to go @#$% yourself and are never forced to pay up. It's the same mentality, they were just allowed to get a mortgage. It'll be a few years, but it will work itself out. And yeah, it's stealing. Plain old theft. Interestingly though, friends who do credit and background checks on prospective tennants do not have this problem. Gee, I wonder why?