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Why I'm not a (Capital-L) Libertarian


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2021 Jun 5, 9:17pm   757 views  30 comments

by AmericanKulak   ➕follow (9)   💰tip   ignore  

I'm a near free speech absolutist - but not totally

I don't believe you lose your freedom of speech while on the clock. However, I believe Companies can ban all political talk while on the clock, as long as it is all and not some. I'm amazed at how many "Free Speech Absolutists" become non-absolute only in the one circumstance when you're exchanging money for labor.

I believe Political Speech discrimination bans are MORE important than anti-discrimination in race or gender.

I don't believe property is human, and giving human rights to property is bizarre. Saying a company with a million diversely-held shares should have free speech as a human being, is like saying your timeshare should have the same free speech as a human being.

I believe Corporations should only be able to lobby on affairs that effect them. In other words, Amazon can't lobby for LGBTQ+ rights or on bills. It could lobby on tariffs or taxes.

I believe Everybody - human or corporate - should only be able to lobby/donate where they can vote. Delaware will have a lot of voters and donations! You can donate to your Senators, Congressman, or the POTUS candidate, but not to the Senator in the next state or even the Congressman in the next district. He represents THOSE voters, not you, and you shouldn't be influencing him.

Economic compulsion is real, and it's the MOST common form of compulsion. Far, far more common today and historically that outright physical compulsion or even social pressure.

Finally, and this was the key jumping off point for me into popular conservativism: Families, not Markets, are the essence of society.

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1   Patrick   2021 Jun 5, 10:55pm  

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says
Families, not Markets, are the essence of society.


Good slogan.
2   HeadSet   2021 Jun 6, 7:12am  

I believe Everybody - human or corporate - should only be able to lobby/donate where they can vote. Delaware will have a lot of voters and donations! You can donate to your Senators, Congressman, or the POTUS candidate, but not to the Senator in the next state or even the Congressman in the next district. He represents THOSE voters, not you, and you shouldn't be influencing him.

I agree, but good luck with that. These donations are how politicos get rich and those politicos do not even want to restrict donations from other countries. Therefore, the politicos will oppose anything that limits their ability to sell influence. The first step to attack this style of corruption is term limits, but that will be fought by the politicos for the same reason.
3   Patrick   2021 Jun 7, 1:13pm  

HunterTits says
Corporations are just groups of ppl joined in some common cause, usually commercial.


Not exactly. The whole point of a corporation is that those people who own it have no personal liability for its actions.

This is very different from a group of people who have liability.
4   Patrick   2021 Jun 7, 1:18pm  

I think it does have something to do with freedom of speech.

When people have personal liability for their speech, they are more self-censoring.
5   Patrick   2021 Jun 7, 5:49pm  

HunterTits says
I believe Political Speech discrimination bans are MORE important than anti-discrimination in race or gender.





I absolutely agree with that.

But it still seems to me that corporations and the people making them up have different liabilities.
6   rocketjoe79   2021 Jun 7, 9:35pm  

Corps should never have been given rights like people. Citizen's United ruling needs to be overturned or Congress needs to legislate differently.
7   AmericanKulak   2021 Jun 8, 9:21am  

HunterTits says
No it isn't. Corporations are not property. Corporations are just groups of ppl joined in some common cause, usually commercial.


Corporations are property, shares of a company are distributed to people, but corporations aren't flesh and blood humans with souls to save. Also unlike humans, they don't have other worries like sickness and health, reproduction, and are immortal. That's why property shouldn't have the same rights as Humans.

The people who own the shares can vote.
8   Tenpoundbass   2021 Jun 8, 10:43am  

The problem I have always had with the "Libertarian" moniker. For a group of folks that doesn't want the government meddling in their own affairs. They are most opinionated group of people(Save for the outright radical Left), and have a litany of rules and druthers, they would impose on everyone else, in a New York instant.
They have no problem saying what everyone else ought to do.

Selfish and Contentious would best describe them.
9   NuttBoxer   2021 Jun 8, 4:02pm  

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says
Economic compulsion is real, and it's the MOST common form of compulsion. Far, far more common today and historically that outright physical compulsion or even social pressure.


Do you consider robbery economic compulsion?

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says
Finally, and this was the key jumping off point for me into popular conservativism: Families, not Markets, are the essence of society.


The essence of Mises teachings is that everything is inter-connected, so economics are never a driver in a vacuum. And God designated the family as the center of society, not conservatives(Genesis). Punishing people for what they put in their body, and supporting endless war and pedophilia, are not what I consider family values.
10   NuttBoxer   2021 Jun 8, 4:10pm  

Tenpoundbass says
The problem I have always had with the "Libertarian" moniker. For a group of folks that doesn't want the government meddling in their own affairs. They are most opinionated group of people(Save for the outright radical Left), and have a litany of rules and druthers, they would impose on everyone else, in a New York instant.
They have no problem saying what everyone else ought to do.

Selfish and Contentious would best describe them.


I don't want ANYONE meddling in my affairs, don't give a fuck if your public or private, stay out of my business!

The slogan of Libertarians is best summed up as Leave me the fuck alone, and I'll leave you the fuck alone, so no we don't have a litany of rules for anyone but ourselves. Don't like that? I don't give a fuck, as long as you stay out of my life.

Here's what I don't like about false paradigm'ers. You all rant about the the horrors of the other side, but when your guys do it, all of a sudden it's all good... hypocrites...
You all philosophize about how your ways is the best, but I live mine, it's not theoretical like yours is, so I know it works. Again, fucking hypocrites.

And if you don't like any of what I just said, and want to tell me to fuck off, go right ahead, because I don't give a fuck AS LONG AS YOU STAY OUT OF MY LIFE!
11   AmericanKulak   2021 Jun 8, 7:45pm  

Tenpoundbass says
The problem I have always had with the "Libertarian" moniker. For a group of folks that doesn't want the government meddling in their own affairs. They are most opinionated group of people(Save for the outright radical Left), and have a litany of rules and druthers, they would impose on everyone else, in a New York instant.
They have no problem saying what everyone else ought to do.

Selfish and Contentious would best describe them.


My problem with them:
"So what if people get hooked on Crack and refuse to get their mental illnesses treated? How can that in any way effect me? To each their own"

(Glass breaks, 7 Crackheads rush their home, steal all their weed, their stereo, their pistols, and break a bunch of shit in their house for fun. Libertarian is shot with his own gun as they run off.)
NuttBoxer says
Do you consider robbery economic compulsion?


Do you consider being fired for an opinion you express outside of work economic compulsion? It's happening daily now. Even for opinions that the majority holds.
12   Patrick   2021 Jun 8, 7:54pm  

I could see a comparison between unions and corporations, both organizations.

But individuals are inherently very different from organizations.

Why is there no death penalty for corporations, for example?
13   AmericanKulak   2021 Jun 8, 8:07pm  

Patrick says
Why is there no death penalty for corporations, for example?



If people were taxed like corporations, you could write off almost everything you do to stay alive, from gas to commute, all groceries, etc. and only pay tax on your disposable income?

Just like a corporation only pays tax on profit and almost everything else is an operating cost excluded from the tax equation?

How come if a corporation is responsible for negligent manslaughter, they aren't "suspended" for 8 years like a human would?
14   PeopleUnited   2021 Jun 8, 9:20pm  

Corporations are established to privatize gains while socializing losses. In practice corporations have become a fascist’s dream.
15   Patrick   2021 Jun 8, 9:33pm  

I wouldn't say that's why they are established, but I have to admit that the biggest US corporations do exactly that. They also merge with government power, which I believe is part of the definition of real fascism.

For example the biggest banks take huge risks on mortgages, took the profits when they were winning, then dumped the losses on taxpayers (largely via the Fed buying their crap bonds) when it all blew up.

And Google spies on everyone, but the government does nothing because they also get all that info from Google.
16   HeadSet   2021 Jun 9, 6:36am  

PeopleUnited says
And Google spies on everyone, but the government does nothing because they also get all that info from Google.

And if Google was not given a choice about sharing, then that is a classic Fascist act - government control but not ownership of private business.
17   theoakman   2021 Jun 9, 6:52am  

I am libertarian in a lot of ways, but as International trade goes, I'm against the free market, especially for nations where there is huge disparity in incomes. Libertarians tend to argue that we should never have tariffs completely ignoring that authoritarian foreign central banks can manipulate their currency and their workers rights to drive domestic businesses out of business. They also fail to realize in a nation where we make $15 an hour, we cannot compete with a nation where they make 50 cents an hour. And next thing you know, we dismantle every factory, run trillion dollar trade deficits, and send enough cash overseas for them to bribe our politicians with.

Any libertarian that argues we should be trading with China is completely delusional.
18   HeadSet   2021 Jun 9, 7:33am  

theoakman says
They also fail to realize in a nation where we make $15 an hour, we cannot compete with a nation where they make 50 cents an hour.

Plus no pollution laws.
19   NuttBoxer   2021 Jun 9, 5:30pm  

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says
Do you consider robbery economic compulsion?


Do you consider being fired for an opinion you express outside of work economic compulsion? It's happening daily now. Even for opinions that the majority holds.


Ok, it's just I've never heard of economic compulsion that didn't end with a gun pointed at your head. Don't believe me, try not paying taxes, or refusing worthless US federal reserve debt notes. Economic compulsion without law is toothless, and with law, it's always physical.
20   NuttBoxer   2021 Jun 9, 5:33pm  

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says
My problem with them:
"So what if people get hooked on Crack and refuse to get their mental illnesses treated? How can that in any way effect me? To each their own"

(Glass breaks, 7 Crackheads rush their home, steal all their weed, their stereo, their pistols, and break a bunch of shit in their house for fun. Libertarian is shot with his own gun as they run off.)


The problem there isn't the crackhead, it's home robbery, which we already have laws against. But practically, this scenario has nothing to do with being a libertarian, and everything to do with not properly training for home defense scenarios. Also, this would only happen in a city, which are all shit holes in my humble opinion. Libertarian or not, if you don't want crackhead home invasions(something we have now), don't live in a shit hole.
21   NuttBoxer   2021 Jun 9, 5:37pm  

theoakman says
Libertarians tend to argue that we should never have tariffs completely ignoring that authoritarian foreign central banks can manipulate their currency and their workers rights to drive domestic businesses out of business.


Like here in the US...

theoakman says
They also fail to realize in a nation where we make $15 an hour, we cannot compete with a nation where they make 50 cents an hour.


Still thinking in terms of fiat currency, which as you just pointed out, is the source economic disparity...

theoakman says
And next thing you know, we dismantle every factory, run trillion dollar trade deficits, and send enough cash overseas for them to bribe our politicians with.

Any libertarian that argues we should be trading with China is completely delusional.


Like we did(NAFTA), and like we are(look at any label in any store in any state).
22   NuttBoxer   2021 Jun 9, 5:40pm  

HeadSet says
Plus no pollution laws.


Like the ones that allowed the EPA to turn the Colorado River copper? Or the ones that create salmonella outbreaks yearly? Or the ones that have us paying for blood cadium from Africa? The ones that keep LA's air so pristine? And make New Jersey a veritable Garden of Eden?
23   NuttBoxer   2021 Jun 9, 5:43pm  

Let me summarize all of your solutions thus far...

"Hail government! If we only had MORE laws, MORE regulation, MORE GOVERNMENT!! Then our lives would be perfect, and float away to our socialist utopia paradise!!!"
24   theoakman   2021 Jun 9, 7:43pm  

If you really want to, I can quote their labor in the price of gold or bitcoin, and my point still stands. As far as NAFTA goes, it just proves my point further.
25   AmericanKulak   2021 Jun 16, 3:19pm  



So, taxpayer obligated payments to Public K-12 can't have a democratic representative direct them away from CRT, or that's Authoritarianism.

This guy is the Treasurer of the Oklahoma Libertarian Party and part of the Von Mises Caucus, by the way.
26   Patrick   2021 Jun 28, 5:44pm  

https://babylonbee.com/news/is-your-teenager-secretly-a-libertarian-9-signs-to-look-for

It's every parent's worst nightmare: your kid comes out as a libertarian. Don't worry -- we can help you nip it in the bud. You should be closely involved in your teen's life to make sure he doesn't suddenly start believing in freedom and personal responsibility. Make sure to constantly check for these 9 warning signs:

1. You walk into his room late at night and he frantically tries to hide the video he's watching: Ron Paul's Liberty Report. - Caught red-handed.

2. He asks for his allowance in Bitcoin. - Dogecoin can also be a red flag.

3. He screams, "AM I BEING DETAINED!?" when you ask him to come downstairs for dinner. - Also during detention, when you make him go to the grocery store with you, and pretty much anytime anyone asks him to do anything.

4. You check under his mattress and sure enough, he's been hiding the worst thing imaginable: a copy of Basic Economics by Thomas Sowell. - Talk to your kids about Sowell before it's too late.

5. While his schoolmates are shooting each other in Call of Duty, he's plinking targets from 150 yards with his AR-15 - He's only interested in the real thing.

6. You catch him texting girls "Taxation is theft." - Always check your kids' electronic devices so you can be alerted to these telltale signs of libertarianism.

7. He plays Grand Theft Auto but spends the whole time ranting about police violence against him for flying a military helicopter around Los Santos. - "I thought this was AMERICA."

8. You get a call from school that he got thrown out of economics class again for arguing with his teacher about the unsustainability of the U.S. Dollar and the failure of Keynesian economics. - Trouble at school might mean he's been radicalized by the Austrian school of economics. Not good!

9. He has no friends. - This is perhaps the surest sign of all.


The last one is unfair. Libertarians usually have lots of libertarian friends.
27   AmericanKulak   2021 Jun 28, 5:53pm  

NuttBoxer says

Do you consider robbery economic compulsion?


Yes, Robbery is illegal.

Is cutting people off from services or employment because of political views not a form of compulsion? Especially is the service is a monopoly or near monopoly? Remember Wikileaks and the Payment Processors? I believe it was only the government of Iceland that prohibited it, in a fit of populism.

"Start your own" didn't work - people did, and then the payment processors cut them off, the DDOS prevention services were strong armed by their vastly larger competitors to drop them, etc. I believe Mike Lindell dropped by his law firm because other clients complained the Law firm was repping Mike in a case that had nothing to do with them?


NuttBoxer says

The problem there isn't the crackhead, it's home robbery, which we already have laws against. But practically, this scenario has nothing to do with being a libertarian, and everything to do with not properly training for home defense scenarios. Also, this would only happen in a city, which are all shit holes in my humble opinion. Libertarian or not, if you don't want crackhead home invasions(something we have now), don't live in a shit hole.


People who live in meth infested small towns/rural areas would disagree.
28   theoakman   2021 Jun 28, 5:54pm  

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says


So, taxpayer obligated payments to Public K-12 can't have a democratic representative direct them away from CRT, or that's Authoritarianism.

This guy is the Treasurer of the Oklahoma Libertarian Party and part of the Von Mises Caucus, by the way.


That's because he's a poser that doesn't even understand his own supposed ideology.
29   AmericanKulak   2021 Jun 28, 5:57pm  

theoakman says
That's because he's a poser that doesn't even understand his own supposed ideology.


Is it Libertarian that Public Schools are subsidized with taxpayer funds to teach CRT, teach the teachers how to teach CRT, hire "Bias" consultants?
30   mell   2021 Jun 28, 6:43pm  

theoakman says
MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says


So, taxpayer obligated payments to Public K-12 can't have a democratic representative direct them away from CRT, or that's Authoritarianism.

This guy is the Treasurer of the Oklahoma Libertarian Party and part of the Von Mises Caucus, by the way.


That's because he's a poser that doesn't even understand his own supposed ideology.


That guy is a fucking idiot and by no means Libertarian. The schools are centrally funded with all this CRT bs. If you defunded all schools and allowed free market competition I'd have no problem with a few nutbag schools trying to teach CRT, they would have zero pupils. Pretty much the same for the rest of his list. Not allowing dicks in female competitions has nothing to do with authoritarian, rather the opposite. It's preserving diverse categories. What an idiot.

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