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Lessons We Should Remember From Divisiveness in the Middle East
invite response
2020 Aug 30, 9:12pm 802 views 22 comments
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2
Patrick
2020 Aug 30, 10:18pm
Patrick
2020 Aug 30, 10:18pm
NuttBoxer says
@NuttBoxer I'm sure you mean well, but you clearly have not studied Islam much.
Islam itself it the primary cause of terrorism in the world, and this goes right back to Mohammed's personal example to his followers, robbing caravans, raping the women, and murdering his enemies, everyone who so much uttered a word of criticism against him, including a nursing woman, Asma bint Marwan, and a 100 year old man, Abu Afak.
This is official Islamic history. ISIS is pure and original Islam doing what Islam teaches: murdering those who refuse to submit or pay, or who deviate from Mohammed's teaching.
Atrocities are the very core of Islam, from its beginning until the present day. Try criticizing Mohammed in public.
There are many good and reasonable Muslims, but that is only because they are not really following Islam as taught by Mohammed. And that's a good thing, but it does not make Islam a good religion.
It's unfortunate the atrocities that have been carried out in the name of Islam, but have nothing to do with it's teachings.
@NuttBoxer I'm sure you mean well, but you clearly have not studied Islam much.
Islam itself it the primary cause of terrorism in the world, and this goes right back to Mohammed's personal example to his followers, robbing caravans, raping the women, and murdering his enemies, everyone who so much uttered a word of criticism against him, including a nursing woman, Asma bint Marwan, and a 100 year old man, Abu Afak.
This is official Islamic history. ISIS is pure and original Islam doing what Islam teaches: murdering those who refuse to submit or pay, or who deviate from Mohammed's teaching.
Atrocities are the very core of Islam, from its beginning until the present day. Try criticizing Mohammed in public.
There are many good and reasonable Muslims, but that is only because they are not really following Islam as taught by Mohammed. And that's a good thing, but it does not make Islam a good religion.
3
Patrick
2020 Aug 30, 10:26pm
Patrick
2020 Aug 30, 10:26pm
NuttBoxer says
BTW, if you want to compare religions, please point out where Jesus did any of those atrocities.
That's the difference.
Muslims who murder are doing exactly what the founder of their religion taught them to do.
Christians who murder are doing the opposite of what the founder of their religion taught them to do.
I can certainly attest to the numerous times throughout history that similar atrocities have been carried out in the name of "Christianity".
BTW, if you want to compare religions, please point out where Jesus did any of those atrocities.
That's the difference.
Muslims who murder are doing exactly what the founder of their religion taught them to do.
Christians who murder are doing the opposite of what the founder of their religion taught them to do.
4
MisdemeanorRebel
2020 Aug 30, 10:51pm
MisdemeanorRebel
2020 Aug 30, 10:51pm
When you follow Jesus' words to the letter, you end up with the Mennonites.
When you follow Mohammed's words to the letter, you end up with ISIS.
When you follow Mohammed's words to the letter, you end up with ISIS.
5
NuttBoxer
2020 Sep 13, 9:11pm
NuttBoxer
2020 Sep 13, 9:11pm
Patrick says
I have not. The author does make it clear that there are divisions in Islam, that cause variation in beliefs, but your interpretation of this as correct vs incorrect is exactly the black/white mentality she rails against. And as a Protestant I understand why. Did you know we have different denominations around everything from what day of the week we should meet, to how someone should be baptized(sprinkling, head only, or full immersion?). You think it really matters if I jump in a lake or get some mist on my face when I'm baptized? It doesn't. Souad covers many of the differences in the beliefs around Islam, but she also covers extremists who use Islam as an excuse, and know nothing of it's teachings.
GWB prayed, so that means God supported turning Iraq into a shithole right? And the witches that were burned by Puritans in Salem, very Godly. And let's not forget the Inquisition in Spain.
Malcom X was a known militant for most of his life. But if you read his autobiography you see a dramatic change occurs after his pilgrimage to Mecca. He returns more balanced, and peaceful. Did you know that women who take the pilgrimage do not cover their faces?
But personally, I don't need any of that to know it's wrong to judge a person based on them being a Muslim and nothing else. Especially since I've been around the protestant church long enough to know hypocrites exist in every religion. And I've been around humans long enough to know the irresponsible ones always do their deeds in someone else's name.
@NuttBoxer I'm sure you mean well, but you clearly have not studied Islam much.
I have not. The author does make it clear that there are divisions in Islam, that cause variation in beliefs, but your interpretation of this as correct vs incorrect is exactly the black/white mentality she rails against. And as a Protestant I understand why. Did you know we have different denominations around everything from what day of the week we should meet, to how someone should be baptized(sprinkling, head only, or full immersion?). You think it really matters if I jump in a lake or get some mist on my face when I'm baptized? It doesn't. Souad covers many of the differences in the beliefs around Islam, but she also covers extremists who use Islam as an excuse, and know nothing of it's teachings.
GWB prayed, so that means God supported turning Iraq into a shithole right? And the witches that were burned by Puritans in Salem, very Godly. And let's not forget the Inquisition in Spain.
Malcom X was a known militant for most of his life. But if you read his autobiography you see a dramatic change occurs after his pilgrimage to Mecca. He returns more balanced, and peaceful. Did you know that women who take the pilgrimage do not cover their faces?
But personally, I don't need any of that to know it's wrong to judge a person based on them being a Muslim and nothing else. Especially since I've been around the protestant church long enough to know hypocrites exist in every religion. And I've been around humans long enough to know the irresponsible ones always do their deeds in someone else's name.
6
NuttBoxer
2020 Sep 13, 9:18pm
NuttBoxer
2020 Sep 13, 9:18pm
Patrick says
Have you ever read the Old Testament? The Israelite's conquest of Canaan? The Angel of Death killing Egyptian children? Protestant's believe in both Old and New, and that it was the same God throughout. We believe in the Trinity, not just Jesus by himself.
Maybe you've missed some important context in your studies.
BTW, if you want to compare religions, please point out where Jesus did any of those atrocities.
Have you ever read the Old Testament? The Israelite's conquest of Canaan? The Angel of Death killing Egyptian children? Protestant's believe in both Old and New, and that it was the same God throughout. We believe in the Trinity, not just Jesus by himself.
Maybe you've missed some important context in your studies.
7
Patrick
2020 Sep 13, 9:32pm
Patrick
2020 Sep 13, 9:32pm
NuttBoxer says
Thanks, but I don't think so. I've read Old and New testament as well as the Koran.
The Old Testament does have some Islamic-type violence, but Jesus had no part in it.
Mohammed, however, was a full blown thug, murdering, raping, pillaging. All according to official Islamic sources.
Maybe you've missed some important context in your studies.
Thanks, but I don't think so. I've read Old and New testament as well as the Koran.
The Old Testament does have some Islamic-type violence, but Jesus had no part in it.
Mohammed, however, was a full blown thug, murdering, raping, pillaging. All according to official Islamic sources.
8
MisdemeanorRebel
2020 Sep 13, 9:41pm
MisdemeanorRebel
2020 Sep 13, 9:41pm
The OT clearly defines the boundaries of Israel, outside which God explicitly said "You extend beyond, I'll whoop your ass"
The NT only carries the weight of the Great Commission to talk about the Gospel.
Only the Quran has the Sword Verse, and contains explicit instructions about taxing other monotheists - providing they utterly submit to Islam's dominant rule over them - but showing no mercy for Pagans/Kaffirs that do not convert.
The NT only carries the weight of the Great Commission to talk about the Gospel.
Only the Quran has the Sword Verse, and contains explicit instructions about taxing other monotheists - providing they utterly submit to Islam's dominant rule over them - but showing no mercy for Pagans/Kaffirs that do not convert.
9
just_passing_through
2020 Sep 13, 10:04pm
just_passing_through
2020 Sep 13, 10:04pm
NuttBoxer says
There are good people I've known who may have been muslim and I was unaware. There are muslims I know who are fantastic people. I've never asked about it but I overheard one at work who was very active and was basically doing the same shit I was doing when I was a little catholic boy. Setting up unicef trips, doing good shit for the local community etc.
The ones that blow up suck balls though. So I don't want em around. Maybe someday I'm able to change my mind.
I don't need any of that to know it's wrong to judge a person based on them being a Muslim and nothing else.
There are good people I've known who may have been muslim and I was unaware. There are muslims I know who are fantastic people. I've never asked about it but I overheard one at work who was very active and was basically doing the same shit I was doing when I was a little catholic boy. Setting up unicef trips, doing good shit for the local community etc.
The ones that blow up suck balls though. So I don't want em around. Maybe someday I'm able to change my mind.
10
Patrick
2020 Sep 14, 8:43am
Patrick
2020 Sep 14, 8:43am
NuttBoxer says
@NuttBoxer where did I say that you should judge people based on being Muslim?
I did not.
Do not say that I did.
i am, however, saying that islam is by far the most violent and intolerant religion, by a long shot. It's not even close and it's morally wrong to pretend otherwise.
People are born into religions and that's not their fault. But terrorism is the fault of all people who pretend that Islam has nothing to do with it, including non-Muslims apologists. It makes them complicit in daily murder. Yes, daily.
https://thereligionofpeace.com/
I don't need any of that to know it's wrong to judge a person based on them being a Muslim and nothing else.
@NuttBoxer where did I say that you should judge people based on being Muslim?
I did not.
Do not say that I did.
i am, however, saying that islam is by far the most violent and intolerant religion, by a long shot. It's not even close and it's morally wrong to pretend otherwise.
People are born into religions and that's not their fault. But terrorism is the fault of all people who pretend that Islam has nothing to do with it, including non-Muslims apologists. It makes them complicit in daily murder. Yes, daily.
https://thereligionofpeace.com/
11
socal2
2020 Sep 14, 9:33am
Recommend reading any of Bernard Lewis' books on Islam.
Also the Pulitzer Winning "Looming Tower" by Lawrence Wright.
Also the Pulitzer Winning "Looming Tower" by Lawrence Wright.
12
Shaman
2020 Sep 14, 9:38am
Shaman
2020 Sep 14, 9:38am
NuttBoxer says
This is (sadly) wrong. Most people do not understand how to critically think, even and perhaps especially if they hold degrees from institutions of higher learning.
Based on my own observations, I would put the number at 20% critical thinkers to everyone else as sheeple.
From the article (about college faculty):
“ Though the overwhelming majority of faculty claimed critical thinking to be a primary objective of their instruction (89%), only a small minority could give a clear explanation of what critical thinking is (19%). Furthermore, according to their answers, only 9% of the respondents were clearly teaching for critical thinking on a typical day in class. ”
http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/the-state-of-critical-thinking-today/523
I'm confident the majority of US citizens are critical thinkers,
This is (sadly) wrong. Most people do not understand how to critically think, even and perhaps especially if they hold degrees from institutions of higher learning.
Based on my own observations, I would put the number at 20% critical thinkers to everyone else as sheeple.
From the article (about college faculty):
“ Though the overwhelming majority of faculty claimed critical thinking to be a primary objective of their instruction (89%), only a small minority could give a clear explanation of what critical thinking is (19%). Furthermore, according to their answers, only 9% of the respondents were clearly teaching for critical thinking on a typical day in class. ”
http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/the-state-of-critical-thinking-today/523
13
SunnyvaleCA
2020 Sep 14, 12:20pm
NuttBoxer says
Islam, it would seem, has a wider range of followers. Maybe the Affleck/Harris exchange can help:
www.youtube.com/embed/vln9D81eO60
Have you ever read the Old Testament? The Israelite's conquest of Canaan? The Angel of Death killing Egyptian children? Protestant's believe in both Old and New, and that it was the same God throughout.Christianity went through a reformation ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation ) in which many "barbaric" practices were abandoned. The religion has become more "civilized" over time. The West hasn't had a Salem Witch Trial or a crusade or even a crucifixion for quite a while. The old testament is almost universally considered by followers to be "descriptive" and not "prescriptive" — this is a description of what happened, not a prescription for what you should do now.
Islam, it would seem, has a wider range of followers. Maybe the Affleck/Harris exchange can help:
www.youtube.com/embed/vln9D81eO60
14
Patrick
2020 Sep 14, 12:24pm
Patrick
2020 Sep 14, 12:24pm
SunnyvaleCA says
My point is not whether or not Christians used to be as murderous as Muslims. They were, centuries ago.
My point is that Christianity does not teach murder, but Islam does.
The Muslim who murders in the name of Islam is actually following Islam correctly. It is central to Islam to murder all those who refuse to submit ("Islam" means submission) and refuse to pay the annual ransom for non-Muslims, called the jizya.
The Christian who murders anyone is violating the teachings of Jesus.
Yes, most Muslims are peaceful and reasonable, but that is only because they disobey Islam. ISIS is real, authentic, honest Islam exactly as Mohammed taught it.
Christianity went through a reformation ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation ) in which many "barbaric" practices were abandoned.
My point is not whether or not Christians used to be as murderous as Muslims. They were, centuries ago.
My point is that Christianity does not teach murder, but Islam does.
The Muslim who murders in the name of Islam is actually following Islam correctly. It is central to Islam to murder all those who refuse to submit ("Islam" means submission) and refuse to pay the annual ransom for non-Muslims, called the jizya.
The Christian who murders anyone is violating the teachings of Jesus.
Yes, most Muslims are peaceful and reasonable, but that is only because they disobey Islam. ISIS is real, authentic, honest Islam exactly as Mohammed taught it.
15
NuttBoxer
2020 Sep 14, 1:14pm
NuttBoxer
2020 Sep 14, 1:14pm
Patrick says
Joshua sacked an entire city. David a man after God's own heart had songs sung about him killing 10's of thousands. Noah let everyone drown. Things are never as black and white as you think, especially when it comes to other cultures and other times.
I wouldn't presume to understand Irish people just because I read Joyce, but you've judged an entire population based on your reading of a religious book translated from it's original language. And yes, that does matter. Understanding the cultural and historical significance, as well as some of the original words used in a passage really expands and clarifies the meaning.
Thanks, but I don't think so. I've read Old and New testament as well as the Koran.
Joshua sacked an entire city. David a man after God's own heart had songs sung about him killing 10's of thousands. Noah let everyone drown. Things are never as black and white as you think, especially when it comes to other cultures and other times.
I wouldn't presume to understand Irish people just because I read Joyce, but you've judged an entire population based on your reading of a religious book translated from it's original language. And yes, that does matter. Understanding the cultural and historical significance, as well as some of the original words used in a passage really expands and clarifies the meaning.
16
NuttBoxer
2020 Sep 14, 1:33pm
NuttBoxer
2020 Sep 14, 1:33pm
Patrick says
Islam has been around for thousands of years. The Ottoman empire was one of the largest in human history. Terrorism is a recent term, and from what I've noticed, used largely by governments who want an excuse to kill or control people. Bombings are much more prevalent in the Middle East, and are mostly from drones. As are foreign troops occupying Middle Eastern countries. If you want to talk about terrorism, you should familiarize yourself with another recent term, "Blow-back".
So there you are. You can choose to line up with the MIC, or ISIS, because for black-or-white people like yourself there are no other choices. But as someone who firmly rejects false paradigms as divisionist bullshit, I'll go the middle road of judging people as I meet and get to know them, and promoting peace, not violence.
I do own a gun, and do worry about having to use it, but not on Muslims. BLM, Antifa, police, DHS, FBI, DEA, and desperate or dangerous criminals, yes. Those are the only terrorists I have to worry about.
But terrorism is the fault of all people who pretend that Islam has nothing to do with it, including non-Muslims apologists. It makes them complicit in daily murder. Yes, daily.
Islam has been around for thousands of years. The Ottoman empire was one of the largest in human history. Terrorism is a recent term, and from what I've noticed, used largely by governments who want an excuse to kill or control people. Bombings are much more prevalent in the Middle East, and are mostly from drones. As are foreign troops occupying Middle Eastern countries. If you want to talk about terrorism, you should familiarize yourself with another recent term, "Blow-back".
So there you are. You can choose to line up with the MIC, or ISIS, because for black-or-white people like yourself there are no other choices. But as someone who firmly rejects false paradigms as divisionist bullshit, I'll go the middle road of judging people as I meet and get to know them, and promoting peace, not violence.
I do own a gun, and do worry about having to use it, but not on Muslims. BLM, Antifa, police, DHS, FBI, DEA, and desperate or dangerous criminals, yes. Those are the only terrorists I have to worry about.
17
SunnyvaleCA
2020 Sep 14, 1:46pm
NuttBoxer says
Terrorism is a recent term"Terrorism" might be a recent term, but not a recent concept. There are plenty of tales 2000+ years old of what we would generally consider terrorism. Political assassinations, burning fields of crops, murdering "women and children" at random, crucification, etc.
18
Patrick
2020 Sep 14, 6:50pm
Patrick
2020 Sep 14, 6:50pm
NuttBoxer says
Again, there are such things in the Old Testament, but not the New. Jesus did nothing like that, right?
Joshua sacked an entire city.
Again, there are such things in the Old Testament, but not the New. Jesus did nothing like that, right?
19
Patrick
2020 Sep 14, 6:52pm
Patrick
2020 Sep 14, 6:52pm
NuttBoxer says
No, it was invented by Mohammed who died in 632 AD. So it's been about 1400 years, not thousands. Let be factual.
Islam has been around for thousands of years.
No, it was invented by Mohammed who died in 632 AD. So it's been about 1400 years, not thousands. Let be factual.
20
Patrick
2020 Sep 14, 6:54pm
Patrick
2020 Sep 14, 6:54pm
NuttBoxer says
Joyce did not write the foundational text for Irish people, telling them how to behave.
The Koran actually is the foundational text for Islam, and gives Muslims explicit instruction to murder people like you who refuse to convert to Islam, unless you pay the annual ransom (jizya).
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx
I wouldn't presume to understand Irish people just because I read Joyce, but you've judged an entire population based on your reading of a religious book translated from it's original language.
Joyce did not write the foundational text for Irish people, telling them how to behave.
The Koran actually is the foundational text for Islam, and gives Muslims explicit instruction to murder people like you who refuse to convert to Islam, unless you pay the annual ransom (jizya).
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx
21
Patrick
2020 Sep 14, 6:56pm
Patrick
2020 Sep 14, 6:56pm
NuttBoxer says
That's really not fair. I try to look at all sides.
Again, I did not say "all Muslim people are bad". I say that Islam itself is bad because it is profoundly violent and intolerant, and this stems from the examples given by Mohammed himself.
for black-or-white people like yourself
That's really not fair. I try to look at all sides.
Again, I did not say "all Muslim people are bad". I say that Islam itself is bad because it is profoundly violent and intolerant, and this stems from the examples given by Mohammed himself.
22
Shaman
2020 Sep 14, 7:41pm
Shaman
2020 Sep 14, 7:41pm
NuttBoxer says
Wrong again! Sheesh dude.
It was created in the seventh century AD by a camel jockey who claimed to have a visit from an angel. So he wrote a book of really repetitive and violent verses, then recruited followers and started a religious war to spread his new “faith.” Once they took over Mecca, they sent spies and secret troops to Medina awaiting a signal to attack. Then they took over that city as well and over the course of the next few hundred years they spread it to quite a few areas. That only stopped when Christendom retaliated with the Crusades, driving them back to the sand.
Since that humiliation, they’ve concentrated on consolidating power where they are and dreaming up new uses for camel asshole.
Islam has been around for thousands of years.
Wrong again! Sheesh dude.
It was created in the seventh century AD by a camel jockey who claimed to have a visit from an angel. So he wrote a book of really repetitive and violent verses, then recruited followers and started a religious war to spread his new “faith.” Once they took over Mecca, they sent spies and secret troops to Medina awaiting a signal to attack. Then they took over that city as well and over the course of the next few hundred years they spread it to quite a few areas. That only stopped when Christendom retaliated with the Crusades, driving them back to the sand.
Since that humiliation, they’ve concentrated on consolidating power where they are and dreaming up new uses for camel asshole.
I was also reminded of the sentiment held by a large number of people on this sub when it comes to Islam.
The most consistent theme throughout the book is that things are rarely as black-and-white as outsiders attempt to portray them. It's unfortunate the atrocities that have been carried out in the name of Islam, but have nothing to do with it's teachings. As a Protestant, I can certainly attest to the numerous times throughout history that similar atrocities have been carried out in the name of "Christianity".
While people rage against the injustices against blacks in this country, I have noticed an alarming trend that has been building for the past 20 years against Muslims. If you find yourself having a black-or-white view of Islamists, I invite you to read Souad's book. She is a dying breed, a journalist who seeks to tell the truth.
What scares me most in life is having a closed mind. I hope I will always have the courage to question my beliefs, and admit when I am wrong.