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The big debate: is lockdown wrong?


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2020 May 26, 8:15am   1,081 views  29 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (55)   💰tip   ignore  

https://spectator.us/lockdown-wrong-matt-labash-toby-young-debate/

Are you certain that all those people have died from coronavirus as opposed to with coronavirus? As I’m sure you know, American hospitals get paid around $30,000 by the federal government for each patient they lose to the virus, which must result in some fatalities being ascribed to COVID-19 when the real cause of death is something else. And it’s worth bearing in mind that the average age of COVID fatalities is 80 and an estimated 90 percent have co-morbidities.

But even if the figure is as high as you say, that’s still fewer Americans than died during the Asian Flu pandemic of 1957-58, estimated to have killed up to 116,000. In the second half of 1957 the Dow fell about 15 per cent, but it rebounded quickly, not least because the economy wasn’t mothballed for three months in response.

I’ve done an admittedly cursory amount of historical research and as far as I can tell a policy of quarantining entire populations, whether in a state or a country, has only been tried once before — in Mexico in 2009 as a response to the H1N1 pandemic, aka Swine Flu. And it was abandoned after 18 days because of the rising social and economic costs. ...

So a knee-jerk response by a totalitarian dictatorship, which involved denying tens of millions of people their basic rights, was then mimicked by the rest of the world, thanks to the sage advice of the WHO.

One of the weirdest things about this is that the WHO published a report in 2019 about how to respond to the next pandemic in which it specifically recommended against the indiscriminate quarantining of whole populations.

The suspension of civil liberties across the world — in the UK, the right to trial by jury has been suspended, which dates back to the 13th century — might conceivably have been justified if there was compelling evidence that lockdowns suppressed fatalities, but there ain’t. Zilch, nada, bupkis.

Compare the deaths-per-100,000 in those countries that have locked up their citizens with the deaths-per-100,000 in those that haven’t and there’s no evidence that lockdowns have ‘worked’. Nor do you see a relationship between the severity of the shutdown and the deaths-per-100,000. ...

But compare the deaths-per-100,000 in those US states that issued stay-at-home orders, such as New York, with those that didn’t, such as Arkansas. No evidence lockdowns were effective. Delaying lockdowns, as in Georgia, didn’t result in a tsunami of deaths either, as Gov. Brian Kemp’s critics predicted. Nor have those states that have ended lockdowns early seen an uptick in infections, as JP Morgan has pointed out. ...

In the UK, an estimated 50,000 people will die unnecessarily from cancer alone. But the most devastating impact of following China’s lead will be felt in low- and middle-income countries, where public health programmes designed to prevent the spread of TB, HIV, dysentery, malaria and all the other mass killers have been suspended. The death toll from that alone will run into the tens of millions.

Even though we won’t see the full impact of this disastrous policy for some years, I think we can say with near certainty that the lockdowns will cause a greater loss of life than they’ve prevented (not least because there’s no evidence they’ve prevented any). ...

I have no doubt the lockdowns will come to be regarded as the most catastrophic policy error that’s ever been made in the history of the world, including in wartime. I’m going to write a book about this calamity called Burning Down the House, and that’s what politicians, public health officials, bureaucrats and their lickspittles in the mainstream media have done – they’ve laid waste to the global economy and killed countless millions of people in response to a virus that’s no more deadly than a bad bout of seasonal flu. Future generations will look back and marvel at our stupidity. ...

You don’t like Trump? I’ll take him. You can have Boris. I think your President will turn out to have got more calls right during this crisis than our Prime Minister, including singing the praises of hydroxychloroquine. His gut instincts about the virus — not that bad — and the shutdown — needless act of self-harm — are right. ...

For the most part, the people responsible for the shutdown policies across the world have been the same pointy-headed muckety-mucks, sucking on the public teat, that have been screwing up the world for centuries. Some conservatives on my side of this debate think the epic mishandling of this crisis will be the last hurrah of these central planners. Yes, they’ve messed up before, but never on this scale.

As ordinary people survey the wreckage of the economy — and millions across the world start to die as a result of the shutdowns — there will surely be a reckoning. But alas, I don’t think so. They’re just too powerful.

Comments 1 - 29 of 29        Search these comments

1   Tenpoundbass   2020 May 26, 8:19am  

It's sinister, criminal and is nothing short of hostile warfare, an attempt to take over Democratic governments, and inject Communist will.

Those not sophisticated to understand that, are not worth arguing with. They could just be useful idiots, that knows full well the dangers, and are championing it, by arguing the virtues.

Stand Tall America.
2   Tenpoundbass   2020 May 26, 8:26am  

Let's all aspire to be like China. Coincidence? No it is NOT!


https://www.breitbart.com/news/proposed-health-code-app-sparks-anger-in-china/
3   WookieMan   2020 May 26, 10:05am  

HEYYOU says
People don't understand majority rule & the laws that allow lockdowns. If they don't like it, go to court.

Go home and stay at home. There are no laws forcing people to stay home. There are illegal executive orders that are going to get torched in the coming months and years. If you're uncomfortable going out, just stay at home. It's 2020 for fucks sake. You can literally not leave the house and live a functioning and comfortable life.
4   GreaterNYCDude   2020 May 26, 10:20am  

Its a balance of life vs liberty. In the early days (We're all gonna die!) Life took precedence. Now that the effects are (somewhat) better quantified (more contagious tan a than an average flu, not nearly as deadly as ebola) liberty and commonsense should prevail.

Curve has flattened. Time to go back to normal. NOT the new normal.... just normal.
5   GNL   2020 May 26, 10:42am  

Motherfuckers gonna motherfuck.
6   WookieMan   2020 May 26, 10:43am  

GreaterNYCDude says
Curve has flattened. Time to go back to normal. NOT the new normal.... just normal.

I'm still astonished that 100% of people don't have this point of view. Especially considering if you're worried about the virus, you can just stay home. The solution to people's fears is totally evident and attainable. Stay home. Fuck off if you want to tell me what to do my body and mind. And that's the response Karen's are getting moving forward.
7   NuttBoxer   2020 May 26, 10:43am  

Any infringement on our right to travel freely and assemble is wrong. Further, health is a very personal matter, and no one has the right to tell others how to be healthy. If it's staying inside for three months, then you do that. But if it's going out, socializing, and not wearing a mask, no one can tell you not to.

Even CDC now admits death rate is less than half of a percent. That means 1 out of every 201 people. Unemployment is 23%, that's 46 out of every 200. Bigger question seems to be, what the fuck is really going on here.
8   Shaman   2020 May 26, 10:44am  

NuttBoxer says
Any infringement on our right to travel freely and assemble is wrong. Further, health is a very personal matter, and no one has the right to tell others how to be healthy.


Right! My body my choice!
9   MisdemeanorRebel   2020 May 26, 11:09am  

NuttBoxer says
what the fuck is really going on here.


"The only way we can save ourselves from the Virus Trump caused is to bailout all Public Pensions, reopen unlimited one-sided Free Trade with China and the EU, and expand Section 8, Medicaid, and TANF to be run by Citigroup, Aetna USHealthcare, and Bank of America."
10   clambo   2020 May 26, 11:32am  

The only premise for locking the economy was a lack of masks. Why not just make a bunch of them?

I’m angry and disappointed that this was handled in such a bad way.

High risk people could stay home as they wished, and others could be working.

What a huge waste of money and what an absurd abuse of our freedom.

Nobody I know believes that there is danger in going to the beach, yet they are closed where I live (from 11am-5pm) . I guess Wuhan virus only is contagious then.

The left has tried to make this a political issue and may have succeeded.
11   AD   2020 May 26, 2:30pm  

.

NoCoupForYou says
"The only way we can save ourselves from the Virus Trump caused is to bailout all Public Pensions, reopen unlimited one-sided Free Trade with China and the EU, and expand Section 8, Medicaid, and TANF to be run by Citigroup, Aetna USHealthcare, and Bank of America."


You forgot perhaps Biden's and the Democrats #1 priority... that is to open the southern border and to return to Obama immigration policies....

.
12   marcus   2020 May 26, 3:54pm  

Patrick says
is lockdown wrong?


Next time we can probably do better. Perhaps a targeted approach with extreme focus on the elderly. Pay some people extremely well to be live in nurses and other live in support people at nursing homes at times of a pandemic. We have to keep the people that work there uninfected. Prepare and plan in advance. Very strongly encourage older folks to stay home, and order their food delivered etc.

But still, asking whether it was a mistake after the fact is sort of like asking if it was a mistake to wear seatbelts after a trip in which no accident occurred. We thought it was possibly much worse than it was. And I think in hindsight we will know that we averted the health care system being overwhelmed. But clearly it's now time to get back to normal as soon as reasonably possible.

It would have been optimal if some of the teams that were put together before Trump had still existed when this thing happened. That, and having a competant President could have made a big difference, even just in giving the public confidence.
13   WookieMan   2020 May 26, 8:04pm  

marcus says
It would have been optimal if some of the teams that were put together before Trump had still existed when this thing happened. That, and having a competant President could have made a big difference, even just in giving the public confidence.

Would have made zero difference. It's a virus. One person cannot make a difference. It hit basically every country on the planet. Blame all those other leaders, especially those from China. Blaming Trump is retarded. At best you could blame Cuomo for having almost 30% of the deaths in one state. The Northeast is something like 50-60% of the deaths. But hey, Trump.
14   marcus   2020 May 26, 8:15pm  

clambo says
The left has tried to make this a political issue and may have succeeded.


This is so stupid. You wish they did that, becasue everyone knows this will be over, and you want to be able to say the lockdown was a mistake, and that it's liberals fault.

The far right wingers out there protesting with guns as if this is some freedom issue - they were/are making it political. When they know it's ending, they yell and scream so that it will seem like it's their yelling and screaming that caused it to end.

Maybe this has all been a good study in how having it be possible for the public to know what is truly going on is worthwhile. If we all can appreciate that facts and reality are a thing, and that it may be nice to hold on to some semblance of an ability to ascertain what's true. Maybe that is something we could agree on politically ?

Perhaps one day we will have a pro truth party.
15   PeopleUnited   2020 May 26, 9:14pm  

marcus says
It would have been optimal if some of the teams that were put together before Trump had still existed when this thing happened


Bravo Sierra: WHO, Chinese, even Deep State Fauci all downplayed the threat of the virus until it was too late to prevent a global catastrophe. They even told people not to wear masks! Now they tell us masks save lives?!?!

The big mistake Trump made was not finding some honest experts who are not swamp creatures to help advise him. Fauci and Birx acknowledged that Trump has done everything that they asked him to do with regards to the guidance to slow the spread. Too bad for us that he did, because these globalist puppets used horrendously flawed models and have no skin in the game when it comes to accountability for the collateral damage the shutdown is causing. In fact the collateral damage appears to be the globalists endgame!

The scripted pandemic (search the term “Event 201”) has empowered the UN and elites like Bill Gates while weakening basically every sovereign and free nation and every average citizen worldwide. In poor countries famine will soon kill millions. In industrialized nations soon we will see even more consolidation of power by the oligarchs over every person, including limited right to travel, seek health care, food, ability to work and earn/spend money, let alone freedom of speech. They have labeled freedom of speech a privilege allowed only to those who parrot their narrative. Forget about freedom of religion as well! The elites cannot allow people to have hope outside the matrix of the new world order they are establishing. Don’t worry, they will have a form of religion that all can participate in, the Chrislam movement from Rome is the start of the new one world religion.

They tried to scare us with climate change to achieve these goals (the ultimate goal is to reduce the human population down to less than one third of current levels which is why they promote abortion and sterilization (see the Georgia guidestones). The elites don’t need or want the rest of us to share the world they bought for themselves and too many people means more risk of our ability to overcome their domination), but the virus gave them the opportunity to do in two months what they have not been able to do in over 20 years of alarmism.

They have decimated the global economy, and small businesses and the people who work for them will be the biggest losers. We have 10 years at best before a one world government becomes a reality. It will eventually become fully tyrannical just like China only with even more power and technological terrors. Will you continue to give them control over what news you read and what is considered truth, where you go, what you put in and on your own body, what your children are taught? Chances are you will. God help us!

Seek Him while there is still breath in you.
16   PeopleUnited   2020 May 26, 9:17pm  

NuttBoxer says
Any infringement on our right to travel freely and assemble is wrong.

Same is true for 2A arms. They started by limiting that one because Americans forgot what freedom means and how to protect it. Soon religion and speech will be curtailed to only those that support the narrative.
17   PeopleUnited   2020 May 26, 9:33pm  

WookieMan says
One person cannot make a difference.


This is not true, I watched a documentary this weekend of how dictators rose to power in the aftermath of WWI. One man can make all the difference, if he knows when to act. One day during the Great War, in no mans land, a British soldier had Hitler in his sights, and let him go! Little did he know he had power to strike down a future dictator. He did not.

Trump is just a man up against globalists, their media and deep state puppets, but he is singlehandedly holding them back from their goal of a one world government. Sure he could not stop the pandemic, and he won’t be able to hold the globalists at bay forever, but his election slowed globalists down and by the tone of the media the globalists own, they have never been more upset by one man than him in the history of the world.

Just so we are clear, Trump is a ridiculous man with many perverse qualities and one of the poorest role models any person could aspire to emulate. But he is not a globalist so he is the better person for the job at this moment (compared with the other viable candidates). Just look at angry Joe, he sold out to the highest bidder every time and would have thrown the doors open to hundreds of thousands of virus infected from China alone had he been in a position to do so.
18   PeopleUnited   2020 May 26, 9:38pm  

Thanks for sharing the article Patrick. The last part was very poignant and melancholy even as it rings true to objective analysis. Patrick says
You don’t like Trump? I’ll take him. You can have Boris. I think your President will turn out to have got more calls right during this crisis than our Prime Minister, including singing the praises of hydroxychloroquine. His gut instincts about the virus — not that bad — and the shutdown — needless act of self-harm — are right. ...

For the most part, the people responsible for the shutdown policies across the world have been the same pointy-headed muckety-mucks, sucking on the public teat, that have been screwing up the world for centuries. Some conservatives on my side of this debate think the epic mishandling of this crisis will be the last hurrah of these central planners. Yes, they’ve messed up before, but never on this scale.

As ordinary people survey the wreckage of the economy — and millions across the world start to die as a result of the shutdowns — there will surely be a reckoning. But alas, I don’t think so. They’re just too powerful.
19   WookieMan   2020 May 27, 4:34am  

PeopleUnited says
This is not true, I watched a documentary this weekend of how dictators rose to power in the aftermath of WWI. One man can make all the difference, if he knows when to act. One day during the Great War, in no mans land, a British soldier had Hitler in his sights, and let him go! Little did he know he had power to strike down a future dictator. He did not.

You are correct. I was not speaking of control or leadership though. An individual or even an organization trying to influence a virus is no different than someone trying to stop tornados. You can't. It especially doesn't help when the originating country lied and continues to this day about there even being a tornado (virus) at the beginning.

There is no right response anyone can point to for this specific virus. We have enough data to show that shutdowns didn't work in some places and it worked to not shut down in others. CA with a very large population fared well, while NY and the Northeast was demolished and a majority of overall deaths. The fact people want to lay blame at the foot of anyone in our country is kind of stupid.

And if people want more federal government, good luck. Government at almost every level is average at best and most likely incompetent.
20   theoakman   2020 May 27, 7:31am  

The idea that we were going to prevent this from entering the US is ludicrous. Taiwan and New Zealand are islands the size of states. The US is the size of a friggin contintent. It's akin to saying that the the EU should have been able to prevent it from getting into the country.
21   MisdemeanorRebel   2020 May 27, 9:04am  

WookieMan says
And if people want more federal government, good luck. Government at almost every level is average at best and most likely incompetent.


Florida was amazing. They kept vehicle inspection open, used the National Guard, too. 20M people and only a middle sized state, pretty dense in areas.
22   WookieMan   2020 May 27, 10:20am  

NoCoupForYou says
WookieMan says
And if people want more federal government, good luck. Government at almost every level is average at best and most likely incompetent.


Florida was amazing. They kept vehicle inspection open, used the National Guard, too. 20M people and only a middle sized state, pretty dense in areas.

Yes and no. Places like FL and AZ should have been decimated given the demo of those dying from this. I know it's been brought up, but there has to be something to the UV thing. How do places like FL and CA have less deaths with larger populations than say my home state of IL?

I think the reaction by all 3 was not all that different. If anything IL is still on complete lockdown, where I know most counties in FL have opened restaurants to some capacity for sit down dining. I can't even go in public and get a fucking hair cut, but my dog can. Whatever. I might just go camping for the month of June with the kids. Not sure what the fuck else we can do.
23   PeopleUnited   2020 May 27, 5:52pm  

NoCoupForYou says
WookieMan says
And if people want more federal government, good luck. Government at almost every level is average at best and most likely incompetent.


Florida was amazing. They kept vehicle inspection open, used the National Guard, too. 20M people and only a middle sized state, pretty dense in areas.


My hunch is that the states with lower infection counts per capita also had less travel from hot zones by both citizens and foreigners. Another factor is density of course, not people per square mile so much as number of infected people sharing confined spaces. With greater numbers of infected people using subways, buses, common stairways, common hallways, elevators etc... this increases contact time with infectious aerosols, thus more spread, more rapidly.
24   Ceffer   2020 May 27, 5:54pm  

NoCoupForYou says
"The only way we can save ourselves from the Virus Trump caused is to bailout all Public Pensions, reopen unlimited one-sided Free Trade with China and the EU, and expand Section 8, Medicaid, and TANF to be run by Citigroup, Aetna USHealthcare, and Bank of America."

Don't forget giving Dianne Feinstein's stable of Chinese spies all the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
26   WookieMan   2020 May 28, 5:57am  

Yes. Stumbled upon this: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/27/over-80percent-of-coronavirus-patients-on-cruise-ship-had-no-symptoms-study-says.html

Over half the people had it with 80% not even showing symptoms. Keep it out of nursing homes or if you're weak/dying, just stay home. Peer reviewed mind you. Sure the sample size is small, but this is ridiculous at this point. Not one shred of evidence shows that this thing is deadly. We're over counting deaths at minimum. We're killing the economy for sure, for something that is not remotely as deadly as it's claimed to be.
27   CBOEtrader   2020 May 28, 6:31am  

marcus says
after a trip in which no accident occurred


30% unemployment is no accident. I guess we agree there.

How about the "biblical famine"? Is that an "accident" or just happened by itself?
28   zzyzzx   2020 May 28, 6:42am  

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8358109/Swiss-brothels-draw-list-coronavirus-safe-sex-positions.html

Sex workers offer to limit customers to two positions which 'minimise the risk of transmitting coronavirus' to enable brothels to end lockdown in Switzerland
29   CBOEtrader   2020 May 28, 6:42am  

PeopleUnited says
Chrislam movement from Rome is the start of the new one world religion.


Meh, i wanted Buddhewdism.

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