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The Democratic plan for a 42% national sales tax
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2019 Oct 29, 8:39am 2,730 views 27 comments
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1
HeadSet
2019 Oct 29, 9:14am
HeadSet
2019 Oct 29, 9:14am
A 42% national sales tax (known as a valued-added tax)
Actually, VAT is a tax at every level of production. VAT includes a tax when raw materials are acquired, a tax when product is fabricated, and a tax when product is delivered. A national sales tax would just be a tax added to retail level sales only. National sales tax replacing all other taxes is what the old "Fair Tax" movement was about. Of course, what you are referring to is a new tax in addition to existing taxes on income, etc. In England, that uses a VAT, it is illegal for merchants to itemize what portion of the price is VAT. In the US, we list sales tax separately on the receipt. in England you only see the total price. They do this to hide the high rate of tax. We do similar at the gas pump, you do not see the gasoline taxes itemized and totaled into the price.
Warren has been cagier, saying only that under her plan “costs” would go down for middle-class families.
Yep. her selling point will be that the extra taxes would lower than the current taxes plus insurance premiums. That strategy may work.
Actually, VAT is a tax at every level of production. VAT includes a tax when raw materials are acquired, a tax when product is fabricated, and a tax when product is delivered. A national sales tax would just be a tax added to retail level sales only. National sales tax replacing all other taxes is what the old "Fair Tax" movement was about. Of course, what you are referring to is a new tax in addition to existing taxes on income, etc. In England, that uses a VAT, it is illegal for merchants to itemize what portion of the price is VAT. In the US, we list sales tax separately on the receipt. in England you only see the total price. They do this to hide the high rate of tax. We do similar at the gas pump, you do not see the gasoline taxes itemized and totaled into the price.
Warren has been cagier, saying only that under her plan “costs” would go down for middle-class families.
Yep. her selling point will be that the extra taxes would lower than the current taxes plus insurance premiums. That strategy may work.
2
Bd6r
2019 Oct 29, 9:38am
Bd6r
2019 Oct 29, 9:38am
zzyzzx says
I would simply not spend in US, buy a house in Costa Rica or Croatia, and retire as early as possible there. Screw 42% tax and people who invented it...they will never get their $3TN...
A 42% national sales tax (known as a valued-added tax) would generate about $3 trillion in revenue.
I would simply not spend in US, buy a house in Costa Rica or Croatia, and retire as early as possible there. Screw 42% tax and people who invented it...they will never get their $3TN...
3
RWSGFY
2019 Oct 29, 9:51am
RWSGFY
2019 Oct 29, 9:51am
CA stopped short of implementing government healthcare for all when they calculated it would require a 15% income tax ON TOP OF THE EXISTING one. Which translates to 16%-28% total (depending on the bracket). That number put the kibosh on the whole thing.
Good luck selling 42% to the voters. Yes, we are close to the idiocrasy, but not THAT close yet.
Good luck selling 42% to the voters. Yes, we are close to the idiocrasy, but not THAT close yet.
4
zzyzzx
2019 Oct 29, 10:51am
zzyzzx
2019 Oct 29, 10:51am
I'd like to hear from someone who supports Bernie or Warren explain how they can support someone who doesn't actually work for a living and doesn't have to worry about where money comes from when it comes to paying THEIR salaries. Warren and Bernie have no concept of reality when it comes to business or cash flows. They have been conditioned to thinking that money just appears and there is as much as you need for whatever you want. That is how it works for them at least.
5
zzyzzx
2019 Oct 29, 10:51am
zzyzzx
2019 Oct 29, 10:51am
Liberal_in_blackface says
Didn't CO do the same thing?
CA stopped short of implementing government healthcare for all when they calculated it would require a 15% income tax ON TOP OF THE EXISTING one. Which translates to 16%-28% total (depending on the bracket). That number put the kibosh on the whole thing.
Didn't CO do the same thing?
6
zzyzzx
2019 Oct 29, 10:52am
zzyzzx
2019 Oct 29, 10:52am
Liberal_in_blackface says
I'd like to see all Democrats run on this platform.
Good luck selling 42% to the voters.
I'd like to see all Democrats run on this platform.
7
Bd6r
2019 Oct 29, 11:22am
Bd6r
2019 Oct 29, 11:22am
zzyzzx says
They won't run on it, they will implement it after they are voted in.
I'd like to see all Democrats run on this platform.
They won't run on it, they will implement it after they are voted in.
8
SunnyvaleCA
2019 Oct 29, 11:30am
The VAT would be hacked to death both special-interests getting special carveouts for this, that, or the other thing. Why not just have a flat tax on all income?
Would a VAT tax have more or less cheating than an income tax? I thought the only good aspect of an income tax is that it's relatively easy to administer and enforce.
Would we be switching from income taxes to a VAT instead? That's not really "fair" since someone who paid income tax his/her/its own life and then retired is now going to pay the VAT on top of that huge income tax?
Would a VAT tax have more or less cheating than an income tax? I thought the only good aspect of an income tax is that it's relatively easy to administer and enforce.
Would we be switching from income taxes to a VAT instead? That's not really "fair" since someone who paid income tax his/her/its own life and then retired is now going to pay the VAT on top of that huge income tax?
9
FuckTheMainstreamMedia
2019 Oct 30, 5:55am
FuckTheMainstreamMedia
2019 Oct 30, 5:55am
Want to kill the economy? Why do Democrats hate the United States?
10
Y
2019 Oct 30, 7:36am
Y
2019 Oct 30, 7:36am
No need for vat tax or income tax increase.
Mandatory body parts sales upon termination would fund health care for all.
I mean how do you think junkyards got started...
Mandatory body parts sales upon termination would fund health care for all.
I mean how do you think junkyards got started...
11
Tenpoundbass
2019 Oct 30, 8:04am
Tenpoundbass
2019 Oct 30, 8:04am
So basically Democrats figure, that if Criminals are armed robbing citizens are rampant. Then the solution would be to make employers pay people more money. So they'll have more money to give the robbers.
If they got their 42% sales tax to cover healthcare. The Healthcare industry would quadruple their prices across the board on everything.
Democrats would fix that by finding more shit to tax. They are just stupid sons of bitches, they don't have the sense God gave Goat Shit.
If they got their 42% sales tax to cover healthcare. The Healthcare industry would quadruple their prices across the board on everything.
Democrats would fix that by finding more shit to tax. They are just stupid sons of bitches, they don't have the sense God gave Goat Shit.
12
mell
2019 Oct 30, 4:04pm
European countries have VATs and it works ok for some of them (e.g. Germany 19%, essentials such as food items excluded), of course the danger is always that they keep increasing. If other taxes would be lowered I'd be ok with a VAT under certain circumstances, of course 42% is ridiculous and not implementable without destroying the consumer. Depending on in which state you are in the US and even which municipality you have all sorts of VATs already here which amount easily to to double digits. For example in CA you have sales tax, then you have various "mandates" and "fees" on state and city level - esp. in SF such as "health tax" (which is misleading) - adding a few percent here and there depending on what you "consume". Or hotel and resort (tourism) "fees" which generally don't exist in Europe for example. The US has a problem with overconsumption of shit they don't need or is even unhealthy for them, so maybe a small VAT would work in lockstep with reducing income taxes. Taxes are never good but demonizing the VAT while having all sorts of other crap taxes in the US isn't productive either IMO.
13
mell
2019 Oct 30, 4:48pm
OccasionalCortex says
It works well in Europe of which quite a few countries have a higher average standard of living than the US. Also if it's collected at each stage that is fairer than collecting it at the end-seller who bears the whole brunt. You can view a sale from supplier to manufacturer as consumption as well. I don't see a problem with that. If you have no good tax laws or enforcement options for income/sales tax then sure it is also easier, but that doesn't invalidate the VAT concept itself. In the end I care about the total tax burden and with a consumption tax you can choose not to consume non-essential services and goods, whereas you cannot choose not to work if you have a family to feed, so the income tax is not a choice. Note that the VAT is mostly exempted on essential goods/services.
mell saysDepending on in which state you are in the US and even which municipality you have all sorts of VATs already here which amount easily to to double digits. For example in CA you have sales tax
Sales taxes and fees are not VATs. A VAT is added at each stage of production, with the next producer deducting what VAT it paid the previous supplier. This is how the tax at such high rates can be collected and not just for goods but services too. Sales taxes are only applied at POS and only on goods. VATs get paid whether the the final sale to the consumer happens or not.
This is why VATs are real popular for third world governments that otherwise can not tax income or sales taxes effectively. Like the Philippines.
It works well in Europe of which quite a few countries have a higher average standard of living than the US. Also if it's collected at each stage that is fairer than collecting it at the end-seller who bears the whole brunt. You can view a sale from supplier to manufacturer as consumption as well. I don't see a problem with that. If you have no good tax laws or enforcement options for income/sales tax then sure it is also easier, but that doesn't invalidate the VAT concept itself. In the end I care about the total tax burden and with a consumption tax you can choose not to consume non-essential services and goods, whereas you cannot choose not to work if you have a family to feed, so the income tax is not a choice. Note that the VAT is mostly exempted on essential goods/services.
14
ignoreme
2019 Oct 30, 5:19pm
It’s well known that Medicare reimbursements are the lowest in the medical industry. It stands to reason then that if everyone was able to buy into medicare the premiums for that would be lower then what they are paying now since Medicare costs are lower.
Therefore everyone that is currently insured could get covered with no tax increase, money currently going to insurance premiums would just go to Medicare.
That leaves the 20 million uninsured. Even if you had to pay 10k per year for each of these people to cover their premiums, that would only be 200 billion, which is a lot but you wouldn’t need a 42% VAT to cover.
Except it wouldn’t be 200 Billion, it would be less because we are already paying for these people in terms of increased costs of care. Medical debts are the #1 cause of bankruptcy, all these losses the hospitals take when someone doesn’t pay get passed on to the other patients.
If Trump were smart he’d get behind a public option like Medicare on the condition of more border security including mandatory e-verify, entry / exit visa tracking, and banning of sanctuary cities. Public options can work but only after we have borders, it’s something everyone can understand I think.
Therefore everyone that is currently insured could get covered with no tax increase, money currently going to insurance premiums would just go to Medicare.
That leaves the 20 million uninsured. Even if you had to pay 10k per year for each of these people to cover their premiums, that would only be 200 billion, which is a lot but you wouldn’t need a 42% VAT to cover.
Except it wouldn’t be 200 Billion, it would be less because we are already paying for these people in terms of increased costs of care. Medical debts are the #1 cause of bankruptcy, all these losses the hospitals take when someone doesn’t pay get passed on to the other patients.
If Trump were smart he’d get behind a public option like Medicare on the condition of more border security including mandatory e-verify, entry / exit visa tracking, and banning of sanctuary cities. Public options can work but only after we have borders, it’s something everyone can understand I think.
15
RWSGFY
2019 Oct 30, 5:32pm
RWSGFY
2019 Oct 30, 5:32pm
ignoreme says
"Fool me once - shame on you, fool me twice - shame on me". The first time was when Reagan agreed on amnesty in exchange for "more borders security" and the rest of that jazz above.
If Trump were smart he’d get behind a public option like Medicare on the condition of more border security including mandatory e-verify, entry / exit visa tracking, and banning of sanctuary cities.
"Fool me once - shame on you, fool me twice - shame on me". The first time was when Reagan agreed on amnesty in exchange for "more borders security" and the rest of that jazz above.
16
ignoreme
2019 Oct 30, 5:57pm
Liberal_in_blackface says
Which is why border security needs to come first or at the same time. The three issues I mentioned could be done as part of the same bill that does healthcare.
We can’t just refuse to do things that make sense just because we know Democrats are going to try and screw us on it. Somebody write the bill, universal healthcare + immigration reform in one package. Let the Democrats explain why we can’t have a good healthcare system in this country because they oppose immigration reform.
The first time was when Reagan agreed on amnesty in exchange for "more borders security" and the rest of that jazz above.
Which is why border security needs to come first or at the same time. The three issues I mentioned could be done as part of the same bill that does healthcare.
We can’t just refuse to do things that make sense just because we know Democrats are going to try and screw us on it. Somebody write the bill, universal healthcare + immigration reform in one package. Let the Democrats explain why we can’t have a good healthcare system in this country because they oppose immigration reform.
18
theoakman
2019 Oct 30, 7:33pm
mell says
Yeah well, it's not going to work so well if they keep importing uneducated people from other continents. The US has more than proven that it cannot handle social safety nets and entitlement programs. The government is too corrupt here and a portion of our population is too intent to try to game the system.
OccasionalCortex saysmell saysDepending on in which state you are in the US and even which municipality you have all sorts of VATs already here which amount easily to to double digits. For example in CA you have sales tax
Sales taxes and fees are not VATs. A VAT is added at each stage of production, with the next producer deducting what VAT it paid the previous supplier. This is how the tax at such high rates can be collected and not just for goods but services too. Sales taxes are only applied at POS and only on goods. VATs get paid whether the the final sale to the consumer happens or not.
This is why VATs are real popular for third world governments that otherwise can not tax income or sales taxes effectively. Like the Philippines.
It works well in Europe of which quite a few countries hav...
Yeah well, it's not going to work so well if they keep importing uneducated people from other continents. The US has more than proven that it cannot handle social safety nets and entitlement programs. The government is too corrupt here and a portion of our population is too intent to try to game the system.
19
RWSGFY
2019 Oct 30, 7:56pm
RWSGFY
2019 Oct 30, 7:56pm
ignoreme says
... only to be relaxed back to almost nothing when donkeys are back in power. Fuck that. Deport all the illegals who entered after the amnesty, implement what you promised to Reagan and keep it working for 25 years and then we'll talk about the next "common sense reform".
Which is why border security needs to come first or at the same time.
... only to be relaxed back to almost nothing when donkeys are back in power. Fuck that. Deport all the illegals who entered after the amnesty, implement what you promised to Reagan and keep it working for 25 years and then we'll talk about the next "common sense reform".
20
mell
2019 Oct 30, 8:46pm
theoakman says
mell saysOccasionalCortex saysmell saysDepending on in which state you are in the US and even which municipality you have all sorts of VATs already here which amount easily to to double digits. For example in CA you have sales tax
Sales taxes and fees are not VATs. A VAT is added at each stage of production, with the next producer deducting what VAT it paid the previous supplier. This is how the tax at such high rates can be collected and not just for goods but services too. Sales taxes are only applied at POS and only on goods. VATs get paid whether the the final sale to the consumer happens or not.
This is why VATs are real popular for third world governments that otherwise can not tax income or sales taxes effectively. Like the Philippine...
Agreed - goes hand in hand with border safety. But Europe has larger immigration issues than the US.
OccasionalCortex saysmell saysIt works well in Europe of which quite a few countries have a higher average standard of living than the US.
Not really:
As a quick caveat, it’s worth noting that there’s not a one-to-one link between gross domestic product and actual living standards. Some of the economic activity in energy-rich states such as North Dakota, for instance, translates into income for shareholders living elsewhere in America.
But if you look at the US average ($54,629), it obviously is higher than economic output in European nations. And if you prefer direct measures of living standards, then data on consumption from the OECD also shows that America is considerably more prosperous.
Upshot...
GDP doesn't correlate that well with standard of living. Neither does data for consumption, the US are consumption addicts which is in fact detrimental. The US has many upsides such as very much individual liberty but it also has a lot of shithole regions and cities. I would put Germany - even with the current rapefugees - and Switzerland easily over 90% of the US in terms of standard of living. Of course it is difficult to compare such a large country with smaller countries (Germany is pretty large though). I don't care about a pissing match between Europe and the US both continents have much to offer but the VAT is certainly not a problem for Europe, the rapefugees are the problem.
21
🎂
Rin
2019 Oct 31, 2:01pm
Rin
2019 Oct 31, 2:01pm
OccasionalCortex says
Don't forget, Germany has legal FKK clubs
This can easily enhance any guy's standard of living.
mell saysI would put Germany - even with the current rapefugees - and Switzerland easily over 90% of the US in terms of standard of living.
That is cherrypicking your data to make a false broad-based point about the US in total.
Don't forget, Germany has legal FKK clubs
This can easily enhance any guy's standard of living.
22
mell
2019 Oct 31, 3:09pm
OccasionalCortex says
There are 8 countries - mostly European - in front of the US wrt per capita - but also Qatar (certainly not a better standard of living for the average citizen) and Macao. Luxembourg has few people and mostly financial services (tax-haven), lots of skew here possible. Within +-25% it doesn't matter much. Only if there's a really large gap.
OccasionalCortex says
I'd say it's a fact (there's always room for debate of course) - that's why it is so hard for Trump to get his America first policy through against the globalist left - if you think clothes should cost $4 at Old Navy or Walmart - they shouldn't. Consume less and higher quality (i.e. made in US instead of China) = much better outcome for the US. Also much better for the trade deficit.
OccasionalCortex says
Not at all, its totally legit. You need to take the average into account, just because you have tech billionaire CEOs left and right in the bay area doesn't mean the standard of living is high. Look at CA power grid and the horrible housing conditions. The US is a great country but that doesn't mean it has the highest standard of living. It's among the highest but certainly not on top.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/standard-of-living-by-country/
While I don't agree with all the countries preceding the US (you have to have traveled and/or lived extensibly) most of those 12 are ahead IMO and there are good points made as to why. Also it is hard for the US - being a melting pot - to come out on top, unless they focus solely on high-skilled immigrants (which is what Trump is trying to do but the leftoid open border folks are constantly sabotaging).
Rin says
agreed!
mell saysGDP doesn't correlate that well with standard of living. Neither does data for consumption,
Yes, both do.
There are 8 countries - mostly European - in front of the US wrt per capita - but also Qatar (certainly not a better standard of living for the average citizen) and Macao. Luxembourg has few people and mostly financial services (tax-haven), lots of skew here possible. Within +-25% it doesn't matter much. Only if there's a really large gap.
OccasionalCortex says
mell saysthe US are consumption addicts which is in fact detrimental.
That is opinionated spin, not fact.
I'd say it's a fact (there's always room for debate of course) - that's why it is so hard for Trump to get his America first policy through against the globalist left - if you think clothes should cost $4 at Old Navy or Walmart - they shouldn't. Consume less and higher quality (i.e. made in US instead of China) = much better outcome for the US. Also much better for the trade deficit.
OccasionalCortex says
mell saysI would put Germany - even with the current rapefugees - and Switzerland easily over 90% of the US in terms of standard of living.
That is cherrypicking your data to make a false broad-based point about the US in total.
Not at all, its totally legit. You need to take the average into account, just because you have tech billionaire CEOs left and right in the bay area doesn't mean the standard of living is high. Look at CA power grid and the horrible housing conditions. The US is a great country but that doesn't mean it has the highest standard of living. It's among the highest but certainly not on top.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/standard-of-living-by-country/
While I don't agree with all the countries preceding the US (you have to have traveled and/or lived extensibly) most of those 12 are ahead IMO and there are good points made as to why. Also it is hard for the US - being a melting pot - to come out on top, unless they focus solely on high-skilled immigrants (which is what Trump is trying to do but the leftoid open border folks are constantly sabotaging).
Rin says
OccasionalCortex saysmell saysI would put Germany - even with the current rapefugees - and Switzerland easily over 90% of the US in terms of standard of living.
That is cherrypicking your data to make a false broad-based point about the US in total.
Don't forget, Germany has legal FKK clubs
This can easily enhance any guy's standard of living.
agreed!
23
HeadSet
2019 Oct 31, 6:16pm
HeadSet
2019 Oct 31, 6:16pm
This can easily enhance any guy's standard of living.
Or at least raise his "standard."
Or at least raise his "standard."
24
MisdemeanorRebel
2019 Oct 31, 7:03pm
MisdemeanorRebel
2019 Oct 31, 7:03pm
I'd rather make $55k in Oregon or $57k in Nebraska than $67k in Mass or NY.
Far cheaper on most things.
Here's Worcester, MA's #2 city, compared to Nebraska City, Nebraska's #2 city.
Comparable Homes are half the price.
https://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/worcester-ma/nebraska-city-ne/67000
Far cheaper on most things.
Here's Worcester, MA's #2 city, compared to Nebraska City, Nebraska's #2 city.
Comparable Homes are half the price.
https://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/worcester-ma/nebraska-city-ne/67000
25
HeadSet
2019 Oct 31, 7:50pm
HeadSet
2019 Oct 31, 7:50pm
Here's Worcester, MA's #2 city, compared to Nebraska City, Nebraska's #2 city.
Hardly. Lincoln is the second largest Nebraska city behind Omaha. Unlike both Lincoln and Omaha, Nebraska City is a rural area with a distinct farm town mentality. Omaha is only a hours drive away, though, and has some good big city amenities. My brother in law is a dentist in Nebraska City, I know the town well.
Hardly. Lincoln is the second largest Nebraska city behind Omaha. Unlike both Lincoln and Omaha, Nebraska City is a rural area with a distinct farm town mentality. Omaha is only a hours drive away, though, and has some good big city amenities. My brother in law is a dentist in Nebraska City, I know the town well.
26
mell
2019 Nov 1, 10:03am
NoCoupForYou says
HeadSet says
The general problem is the inflation in racket assets such as housing, healthcare and education which has been runaway inflation. Houses shouldn't cost an arm and a leg, remove all illegal immigrants and severely restrict immigration and disband the NAR racket and return to normal housing prices. Note that is is mostly local goods/services they can hyperinflate, why they deflate global goods and services such as clothes/electronics for their leftoid globalist cronies. Bring back more manufacturing to the US and severely restrict all immigration and completely disband illegal immigration.
I'd rather make $55k in Oregon or $57k in Nebraska than $67k in Mass or NY.
Far cheaper on most things.
Here's Worcester, MA's #2 city, compared to Nebraska City, Nebraska's #2 city.
Comparable Homes are half the price.
https://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/worcester-ma/nebraska-city-ne/67000
HeadSet says
Here's Worcester, MA's #2 city, compared to Nebraska City, Nebraska's #2 city.
Hardly. Lincoln is the second largest Nebraska city behind Omaha. Unlike both Lincoln and Omaha, Nebraska City is a rural area with a distinct farm town mentality. Omaha is only a hours drive away, though, and has some good big city amenities. My brother in law is a dentist in Nebraska City, I know the town well.
The general problem is the inflation in racket assets such as housing, healthcare and education which has been runaway inflation. Houses shouldn't cost an arm and a leg, remove all illegal immigrants and severely restrict immigration and disband the NAR racket and return to normal housing prices. Note that is is mostly local goods/services they can hyperinflate, why they deflate global goods and services such as clothes/electronics for their leftoid globalist cronies. Bring back more manufacturing to the US and severely restrict all immigration and completely disband illegal immigration.
27
HeadSet
2019 Nov 1, 12:43pm
HeadSet
2019 Nov 1, 12:43pm
Bring back more manufacturing to the US and severely restrict all immigration and completely disband illegal immigration.
100% agree.
100% agree.
Supporters of Medicare for All, the huge, single-payer government health plan backed by Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and several other Democratic presidential candidates, say it’s time to think big and move to a health plan that covers everyone. Getting there is a bit tricky, however. A variety of analyses estimate that Medicare for All would require at least $3 trillion in new spending. That’s about as much tax revenue as the government brings in now. So if paid for through new taxes, federal taxation would have to roughly double.
The Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget (CRFB) has done voters a favor by spelling out what kinds of new taxes it would take to come up with that much money. Warren justifies many of her programs by saying all it would take is “two cents” from the wealthy. That’s a reference to her 2% wealth tax on ultra-millionaires. But Medicare for All would be so expensive that if you taxed top earners at 100%—that’s right, if you took all the income of couples earning more than $408,000 per year—you’d still fall far short. And everybody getting taxed at 100% would obviously stop working.
Okay, that won’t do it. So what will? CRFB outlined a variety of options. A 42% national sales tax (known as a valued-added tax) would generate about $3 trillion in revenue. But it would destroy the consumer spending that’s the backbone of the U.S. economy. A tax of that magnitude would be like 42% inflation, wrecking consumer budgets and the many companies that depend on them, from Walmart and Amazon to your local car dealer.
Warren, Sanders and others tout the virtues of this magical health care program without explaining what it would cost. Sanders has at least suggested some possible ways to pay for it, including premiums paid by enrollees, a wealth tax on millionaires and income tax rates as high as 52%. Warren has been cagier, saying only that under her plan “costs” would go down for middle-class families. Under pressure to explain, Warren has pledged to come up with a financing plan soon. Now, maybe she doesn’t have to.