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1   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 20, 8:01pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

There might be some effect, since Prop 13 add additional friction to home ownership changes. But I don't think Prop 13 is a main cause of builders not building new housing. Builders aren't building new housing because of land-use restrictions and other onerous government red tape (employment laws, building codes, etc.).

You could argue, however, that Prop 13 sways the existing housing market towards landlords/tenants instead of owner-occupied. It also increases the rift between rich and poor (especially the fact that Prop 13 can be inherited).
2   TrumpingTits   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 20, 8:32pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

“The way California fails to tax land under Prop. 13,” said Lenny Goldberg, the former head of the California Tax Reform Association, “leads to the worst possible outcomes — low density sprawl, inflated land costs, and underutilized commercial strips in areas with tremendous potential for more beneficial development....“The data shows the lowest taxes are being collected on parcels marginally used for parking lots, car dealers, gas stations, strip malls, warehouses, etc. California’s land-use patterns over the past 40 years are notorious for the combination of sprawling development and low-density housing.”


Idiot author doesn't now what he's talking about. Yes, if fails to tax undeveloped land..but a property tax would not fix that. Only a Land Value Tax would.
3   FortWayneIndiana   ignore (4)   2019 Apr 20, 9:15pm   ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

sfchronicle always attacks prop 13. I notice the pattern, basically left attacks prop 13 non stop.

Who benefits from prop 13:
- people
- taxpayers
- working citizens

Who benefits from repeal of prop 13:
- government bureaucrats and their friends

It didn't cause shortage, it only allowed people to keep their homes at a time when unions were skyrocketing taxes to give themselves ever increasing pensions and wages. Old people were losing houses because taxes were higher than mortgages for many. It was true liberal insanity, and prop 13 fixed it.

What causes shortages isn't prop 13, it's lack of building. And lack of building comes from regulation and restrictions on building. Repealing prop 13 will just make housing cost more, it won't make more houses. Liberals like to ignore reality when it doesn't fit their talking points.
4   TrumpingTits   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 20, 9:24pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

FortWayneIndiana says
Liberals like to ignore reality when it doesn't fit their talking points.


Their talking points are rarely based on reality in the first place.
5   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   ignore (41)   2019 Apr 20, 10:19pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

There is no housing shortage.

The housing is just underpriced.
6   BayArea   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 20, 10:25pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The classic prop13 debate:

Should a newly married husband and father be paying 3x more property tax than his older next door neighbor who is grandfathered in because he bought 25yrs ago?

If you are the new husband and father you will argue that you shouldn’t pay more. If you are the older guy who bought 25yrs ago, you will argue that you should pay less.
7   Iranian_Oil_Burse   ignore (5)   2019 Apr 20, 10:28pm   ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Bullshit: it's uncontrolled illegal invasion before everything else.
8   Expat01   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 21, 8:58am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (4)   quote   flag        

LOL.. Typical right wing lack of intelligence or logic. Blah blah blah....Hillary is a commie and Liberals are destroying America!
Fuck you.
9   Iranian_Oil_Burse   ignore (5)   2019 Apr 21, 9:11am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

Expat01 says
LOL.. Typical right wing lack of intelligence or logic. Blah blah blah....Hillary is a commie and Liberals are destroying America!
Fuck you.


Go fuck yourself, fucking Commie fuck.
10   B.A.C.A.H.   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 9:15am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

BayArea says
If you are the new husband and father you
will inherit your hard-working father's assessment. He was once a Tax Donkey, too.
11   just_dregalicious   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 10:56am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Kill a commie for mommy!
12   Quigley   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 11:22am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

B.A.C.A.H. says
will inherit your hard-working father's assessment. He was once a Tax Donkey, too.


Not if: 1)Dad didn’t own property in California
2)Dad doesn’t want to bequeath it to you
3)You have to sell the house to split the money between four kids
4)Dad lives a long time, stays at home, and you’re like 60 by the time he finally cacks. Your working life is about over and any benefit you could have gotten is done.

Prop 13 is one of the least fair things about California, classic “got mine, fuck you!”
13   Ceffer   ignore (2)   2019 Apr 21, 11:59am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Typical LibbyFuck non-sequitur. Find a political topic that people are upset about, and claim that the reason it exists is because taxes aren't higher and that higher taxes will solve the problem. Get taxes, squander, rinse, repeat.
14   just_dregalicious   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 11:59am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

5) The house must be sold to cover Dad's reverse mortgage.
15   Iranian_Oil_Burse   ignore (5)   2019 Apr 21, 12:54pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

BayArea says
The classic prop13 debate:

Should a newly married husband and father be paying 3x more property tax than his older next door neighbor who is grandfathered in because he bought 25yrs ago?

If you are the new husband and father you will argue that you shouldn’t pay more. If you are the older guy who bought 25yrs ago, you will argue that you should pay less.


If there was no Prop13 both would pay twice what "new husband" pays now. Look @ IL for reference.
16   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 1:12pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

B.A.C.A.H. says
BayArea says
If you are the new husband and father you
will inherit your hard-working father's assessment. He was once a Tax Donkey, too.

Inheriting a "special government benefit" sounds just like the aristocratic government the founding fathers despised. People who complain about the growing chasm between rich and poor should point to Prop 13.

The stated (lying, marketing) purpose of Prop 13 was to make sure old people weren't taxed out of their old houses. Inheriting the tax benefit isn't helping that. Kids inheriting their parents' house are probably already 40 or 50 years old, have their own house, and don't really want their parents' house. That transfer is just pure windfall.

Here's a better solution to skyrocketing house "values": the total property tax for the state increases at 2% per year. The percentage of tax collected is adjusted so that the total property tax collected hits that target. For example: if all houses in California double in a year then the tax rate gets cut in half, keeping the total collections on target.
17   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 1:24pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Quigley says
B.A.C.A.H. says
will inherit your hard-working father's assessment. He was once a Tax Donkey, too.


Not if: 1)Dad didn’t own property in California
2)Dad doesn’t want to bequeath it to you
3)You have to sell the house to split the money between four kids
4)Dad lives a long time, stays at home, and you’re like 60 by the time he finally cacks. Your working life is about over and any benefit you could have gotten is done.

Prop 13 is one of the least fair things about California, classic “got mine, fuck you!”

Exactly!

Also, why should Prop 13 also work with commercial property? Why should an old, established business get special protections and an unfair advantage against new businesses? That system promotes a stagnant business climate.
18   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 1:28pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Hugolas_Madurez says
If there was no Prop13 both would pay twice what "new husband" pays now. Look @ IL for reference.

It's perfectly reasonable to complain about bad spending, special interest, and corrupt politicians in the government. But if that makes Prop 13 a good idea, then an even better idea would be to cancel all property taxes altogether. Prop 13 just means some people (who were too young to vote or who didn't live in the state when the law passed) are going to foot a massive bill while the people who did vote on Prop 13 (largely) get the benefit.

There are more ways to solve the tax "problem" than Prop 13. I favor scaling the tax rate paid by everyone:
When housing prices go up in the whole state, the percent amount on full assessed value could go down so that the total amount collected rises at the target 2% increase each year. That would be a better system.

And, yes, let's look at Illinois... long time owners in CA pay lower property taxes. However, newer CA owners pay MUCH MORE property tax. And much more sales tax. And much more income tax. So, really, Prop 13 is a special benefit for some at the expense of everyone else.
19   Quigley   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 2:04pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Ceffer says
Get taxes, squander, rinse, repeat.


Fostering a divide between haves and have nots whereby the former is an established class above the latter isn’t a way to promote trust or faith in government.
If you want less taxes, vote for that. Or vote for the party which taxes less. Instead we have rich NIMBYs sitting pretty at a fifth the tax rate of the normal plebes, whining about how the government uses their tax dollars and voting Democrat for idiotic social issue reasons. I got no sympathy. Give rich granny the boot, and make her move her libtard ass out of state. Hardworking tax paying families are more likely to vote their wallets than patricians without much skin in the game.
That’s why Democrats in Sacramento still haven’t done anything to repeal Prop13 even though they’ve had a legislative super majority for ten years. They don’t want to piss off their rich white landholder base.
20   P N Dr Lo R   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 2:04pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

FortWayneIndiana says
Who benefits from prop 13:
- people
- taxpayers
- working citizens
In 1978, when Prop 13 was passed, my cousin and her husband, who married in 1951, lived at 1923 Mount Shasta Dr. in San Pedro. The taxes were around $1,500 but if Prop 13 hadn't been passed they would have been increased to $7,500 and they would have lost the home in which they'd lived for two years and as far as I know lived their until Bent's retirement in the 80's after 30 years in the LA Police Dept. as a detective and Margaret a teacher. I don't care what the reasons are, I don't think people should be taxed out of their homes. Today its priced at $555K which seems about average for California.

BayArea says
Should a newly married husband and father be paying 3x more property tax than his older next door neighbor who is grandfathered in because he bought 25yrs ago?
The last full year my mother lived, 1996, when she was 94, I found out after I had probated her estate that her taxes had been frozen since 1967 when she was 65 and her tax bill in 1996 was $200. The last year she lived, she had a retirement income of $39,000, which pretty much puts to rest the idea that senior citizen are at a loss for funds. I now pay something like $1,400 a year taxes on the house even after its having been frozen for over 65.
21   B.A.C.A.H.   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 2:33pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Quigley says
Not if: 1)Dad didn’t own property in California
2)Dad doesn’t want to bequeath it to you
3)You have to sell the house to split the money between four kids
4)Dad lives a long time, stays at home, and you’re like 60 by the time he finally cacks. Your working life is about over and any benefit you could have gotten is done.


You were not coerced to relocate to here and buy here. You knew exactly what you got yourself into what you are saying is unfair now.

So many of those who pay market prices in the Bay Area are kids of billionaire types from places like Shanghai, Bombay. They are paying the Greater Fool prices but they don't even care. It could be 10x and that'd be just fine. If not for proposition 13 even folks like you will be priced out of your own home if the assessments were always at the market prices.

I remember in the mid-70's this was a real problem for younger, working class families, not just retiree types, fearful of not being able to pay the ever-increasing tax bill from the ever-increasing assessments from the ever - increasing market prices. I remember when my friend's family moved from SJ to the Peninsula in 1977, a huge headline in the SJ Merc that the median price went up by a third in a short period of time (maybe, Q1 of 1977). It wasn't the wave Rich foreigners coming here by way of grad school + H-1 yet, just Greater Fools from outside the region like some other parts of the US. It was before the stampede of Hong Kongers by way of Vancouver leading up to 1997. The late 70's stampede of elites from Iran comparatively small numbers and mostly in L.A. anyways.

Without the restraint of proposition 13, even folks like you could be priced out with runaway assessments. Yes, it is a flawed law and should be reformed. But not done away with.
22   Iranian_Oil_Burse   ignore (5)   2019 Apr 21, 3:19pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

SunnyvaleCA says
It's perfectly reasonable to complain about bad spending, special interest, and corrupt politicians in the government. But if that makes Prop 13 a good idea, then an even better idea would be to cancel all property taxes altogether.


If you can make it happen, I'm behind you. I'll even contribute to your campaign. Until then Prop 13 is the only thing standing between homeowners and greedy Commie fucks in this one-party state.
23   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 3:59pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

P N Dr Lo R says
but if Prop 13 hadn't been passed they would have been increased to $7,500 and they would have lost the home

You are comparing merely Prop 13 verses no Prop 13. Is there not any other possible solution to the problem of people being taxed out of their homes?

Suppose, instead, that California looked at the 1972 property tax collections (Prop 13 set things back to 1972 levels) and decreed that that amount of total property tax revenue would be increased by 2% per year; I'll call this the "target revenue." Then, each house is assessed at current market value. For each tax year, the state sets the single tax rate paid by everyone so that the "target revenue" is met. So,for example, when property values in the state go up (on average) by 2x, then the tax rate is cut in half so that the "target revenue" is met. That seems to fix the problem while also not creating a vastly unequal playing field.

Some people have mentioned paying 3x or 5x what their neighbors pay. In my neighborhood (zip 94087) the difference FAR MORE. Here's an example of someone paying $1412 per year in property taxes. House is for sale at asking $2.4MM and zestimate of $2.5mm. The taxes on that house will zip from $1412 per year to $27,000 per year ... a 19x difference.
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Sunnyvale-CA-94087/house_type/19626658_zpid/97549_rid/700000-_price/2805-_mp/37.398051,-121.955452,37.3084,-122.105999_rect/12_zm/1_rs/
24   Quigley   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 4:31pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Hugolas_Madurez says
If there was no Prop13 both would pay twice what "new husband" pays now. Look @ IL for reference


Illinois has more than double the mil rate of California. That means a $300k house there pays same taxes as a $700k house here.
Once again, the reason is the same: Democrat rule.
25   porkchopexpress   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 4:59pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

The problem isn't Prop13, it's the tax methodology of levying based on property market value. Prop13 doesn't solve this, it just bastardizes it such that some pay way more than others for the same goddamn services. Property taxes are levied to pay for expenses today, not 30 years ago, so all you Prop13-humpers can sit on it and rotate.

One way to solve this is to levy property taxes based on the type and size of the parcel of land. In other words, come up with a formula that better estimates the cost of municipal services such as water, infrastructure, schools, police, fire, etc. Personally, I think people with kids who use public schools should have to pay more than the DINK couple nextdoor to them--and yes, I have kids who use the public school system.

Then, any increase to property taxes has to be a measure that's voted upon and can't be arbitrarily increased by corrupt politicians. This goes without saying that property taxes must be directed to the appropriate expenses and not reappropriated to a general fund or otherwise.
26   P N Dr Lo R   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 5:24pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

SunnyvaleCA says
You are comparing merely Prop 13 verses no Prop 13
Well there were certainly other alternatives. I only did that because I knew people in my family specifically effected by it.
27   socal2   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 7:36pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Hugolas_Madurez says
If you can make it happen, I'm behind you. I'll even contribute to your campaign. Until then Prop 13 is the only thing standing between homeowners and greedy Commie fucks in this one-party state.


This X 1000%

California is far too retarded top to bottom with super majorities of Democrats to trust them with even more of our tax money.

Seriously, raise your hand if you think California's vast problems are a result of the State not taxing us enough.

Prop 13 is the only thing allowing me to make a living and raise a family here on a reasonable income with some relative stability knowing that my already very high tax burden won't dramatically increase like a fucking ARM reset.. If Newsom and the Democrats want to start talking about slashing our income, sales and gas taxes to offset the hits from hiking our property taxes (along with pension reform), maybe we can talk.
28   FortWayneIndiana   ignore (4)   2019 Apr 21, 8:20pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Quigley says
B.A.C.A.H. says
will inherit your hard-working father's assessment. He was once a Tax Donkey, too.


Not if: 1)Dad didn’t own property in California
2)Dad doesn’t want to bequeath it to you
3)You have to sell the house to split the money between four kids
4)Dad lives a long time, stays at home, and you’re like 60 by the time he finally cacks. Your working life is about over and any benefit you could have gotten is done.

Prop 13 is one of the least fair things about California, classic “got mine, fuck you!”


I think it serves a purpose and it does it well, that purpose is to keep seniors in their homes. In reality it keeps most people in their homes. No one who owns a house can afford constant spikes because government promised pensions beyond what they can pay, in exchange for other favors. If it was up to me, primary residence would be tax free completely for everyone. That's the only fair option.
29   just_dregalicious   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 9:18pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

socal2 says
This X 1000%

California is far too retarded top to bottom with super majorities of Democrats to trust them with even more of our tax money.


This 10,000%!

And I'm only an aspiring home owner out here. I still have to wait another year (22 so far) or two to save more of a down payment and catch the (hopefully) lower price. I'll be approaching 50. Not long enough to get the generous inflation adjusted tax benefit the boomer did who bought in their 20s.

But I sure as shit don't trust those assholes in Sacramento!
30   just_dregalicious   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 9:19pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

socal2 says
If Newsom and the Democrats want to start talking about slashing our
.. (anything)

Hahahahaha!
31   Blue   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 21, 10:33pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Quigley says
Prop 13 is one of the least fair things about California, classic “got mine, fuck you!”


Prop 13 is a stone soup to live a rich life on a new neighbors money. This is why no Prop 13 beneficiaries ask for equal taxes but support for vastly different taxes for similar neighbors. In fact trying to confuse by mixing it with other variables that also effect the home prices.
There was an article in mercury news that in bay area houses are making $100/hr and people pass them to kids through trusts. This should give an option to their kids to retire right after the middle school paid by rental slaves.
Prop 13 beneficiaries are much much worst than higher end illegals in CA.
Prop 13 already created aristocratic society in CA. All Prop 13 leaches are royals in CA.
32   ForcedTQ   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 23, 5:13pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

porkchopexpress says
The problem isn't Prop13, it's the tax methodology of levying based on property market value. Prop13 doesn't solve this, it just bastardizes it such that some pay way more than others for the same goddamn services. Property taxes are levied to pay for expenses today, not 30 years ago, so all you Prop13-humpers can sit on it and rotate.

One way to solve this is to levy property taxes based on the type and size of the parcel of land. In other words, come up with a formula that better estimates the cost of municipal services such as water, infrastructure, schools, police, fire, etc. Personally, I think people with kids who use public schools should have to pay more than the DINK couple nextdoor to them--and yes, I have kids who use the public school system.

Then, any increase to property taxes has to be a measure that's voted upon and can't be arbitrarily increased by corrupt politicians. This goes without saying that property taxes must be directed to the appropriate e...


Here Here! Sounds good, time to refine and implement.
33   Dholliday126   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 23, 7:53pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Prob 13 cost basis should never be able to transfer during inheritance, its killing the market.

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