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California could be coming for your kitchen stove next (plus your water heater, clothes dryer, etc.)

By zzyzzx follow zzyzzx   2019 Apr 8, 11:49am 1,528 views   18 comments   watch   nsfw   quote   share    


https://hotair.com/archives/2019/04/08/california-coming-kitchen-stove-next-water-heater-dryer-etc/

One of the things they are apparently thinking about doing now is getting rid of natural gas appliances in homes and businesses. The idea is to replace millions of gas stoves, gas dryers and gas heaters with replacements that run on electricity to help fight climate change.

you’re talking about replacing several major appliances in millions of homes. For instance, I have a gas stove, a gas water heater, a gas home heater, and a gas dryer. Some of those are less than 2 years old. But, depending on how aggressive Democrats in Sacramento get with this plan, I might have to replace all of those. And the cost of the appliance is just part of it. Electric stoves and dryers need 220-volt power supplies to operate. I don’t have 220 lines installed in my kitchen or garage. Who is going to pay to retrofit all of that? Probably me, but also possibly everyone in California:

I’m not convinced about the savings part of this equation. I can use all of my gas appliances routinely and the bill is still very cheap (around $20 a month except in the winter) because the cost of gas is so cheap. But electricity in California is sold in tiers. Those who only use a tiny amount for the month, pay very little. But most homes are going to use enough to push the rates into the upper tiers where the cost per kilowatt hour is significantly higher. The purpose of this is to induce people to save energy. But the practical result is going to be much higher bills if I’m suddenly using electricity to heat water, cook, heat the house, and dry clothes on top of everything else. It’s hard to estimate what the increased price will be but I’m certain it’s going to be a lot more than my current gas bill, probably several times more. So on top of the cost of replacing appliances and adding new electrical wiring to my home, there’s going to be a higher monthly bill as well.
1   zzyzzx   ignore (2)   2019 Apr 8, 11:50am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

This is some seriously faulty logic, since any new electric power plants are likely to burn natural gas to create the electricity.
2   ForcedTQ   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 8, 12:13pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Don't forget, mandatory TOU rates start October 2020 for PG&E/SCE customers. Your simple tiered rate structure goes away and it gets even MORE crucial to manage your energy use during part peak and peak times of the day. You won't be just trying to keep the total monthly bill below a certain amount to keep from getting grifted.
3   EBGuy   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 8, 12:19pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

ForcedTQ says
Don't forget, mandatory TOU rates start October 2020 for PG&E/SCE customers. Your simple tiered rate structure goes away and it gets even MORE crucial to manage your energy use during part peak and peak times of the day.

Gentlemen... start your batteries. The duck will not be denied.
For those of you playing along at home peak rates will be from 4-9pm or 3-8pm.
4   HeadSet   ignore (3)   2019 Apr 8, 12:33pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Well, lemme see.

Adaptations to this new normal will be more efficient appliances and local solar. Solar being rooftop or neighborhood arrays with home Tesla style batteries as a buffer. More efficient appliances means tiny Euro style washers, tiny oven/stoves, and maybe even a clothesline.

Well, unless you are rich, what else are you going to do? If you want unfettered immigration population growth, and you believe in AGW, cutting carbon means lots less energy for the common person.
5   FuckCCP89   ignore (5)   2019 Apr 8, 3:48pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

#cocksuckers
6   RC2006   ignore (2)   2019 Apr 8, 4:14pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Sounds like a scam to sell heat pumps and new stoves. Of course dumb asses here will be thinking free upgrades with no regard to who is paying.
7   FortWayneIndiana   ignore (3)   2019 Apr 8, 4:30pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Wtf, constant attempts to make electricity expensive as fuck.
8   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 8, 5:04pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Unless we can get all our electricity from "renewables" I'd rather stick with the most efficient of carbon-based fuels for the heating. Even if California got all its electricity from renewables, the next step would be selling that surplus electricity to other states that are still using carbon-based fuels to generate electricity.

That said, I love my induction cooktop. I wouldn't trade it for a gas one even if it does cost me a whole $2 a month to operate.
9   EBGuy   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 8, 6:05pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Here is a quick analysis I did last year. I updated to current PGE rates for gas and electricity.
For natural gas, one therm (100,000 Btus) releases 11.7 pounds CO2 and costs $1.31.
For electricity .294 pounds of CO2 are released per kWh (1 kWh = 3,413 Btus) therefore 8.614 lbs CO2 per therm for $6.38. However, if you can hit 300% efficiency with the heat pump, you're down to $2.13 per therm which is getting in the neighborhood of natural gas. You can see why heat pumps are so attractive (at least from an emissions prospective).
EDIT: I forgot this tidbit. If you're heating with electricity, you'll be using nuclear energy (24% of PG&Es electric mix).
10   Booger   ignore (7)   2019 Apr 8, 6:25pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

EBGuy says
EDIT: I forgot this tidbit. If you're heating with electricity, you'll be using nuclear energy (24% of PG&Es electric mix).


The Dems want to shut those down.
11   FuckCCP89   ignore (5)   2019 Apr 8, 6:40pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Booger says
EBGuy says
EDIT: I forgot this tidbit. If you're heating with electricity, you'll be using nuclear energy (24% of PG&Es electric mix).


The Dems want to shut those down.


Practically done deal in CA.
12   ForcedTQ   ignore (0)   2019 Apr 8, 7:07pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

San Onofre (SONGS) already said bye bye. Diablo says bye bye in 2023 or so. And these fucking retards have NO RELIABLE OPTIONS for replacing that lost 24% of base supply..... Rolling blackouts coming soon, better get your generator/storage system lined up!
13   Brd6   ignore (1)   2019 Apr 8, 7:12pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

ForcedTQ says
nd these fucking retards have NO RELIABLE OPTIONS for replacing that lost 24% of base supply

Enron, here we come the second time
14   FortWayneIndiana   ignore (3)   2019 Apr 8, 8:40pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

d6rB says
ForcedTQ says
nd these fucking retards have NO RELIABLE OPTIONS for replacing that lost 24% of base supply

Enron, here we come the second time


Dude I was thinking exactly the same thing. Those mother fuckers at Enron were pulling strings last time to create those.

I swear if we get those, some assholes in government should be publicly executed for this shit.
15   Fuckyouasshole   ignore (1)   2019 Oct 12, 11:35am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

They should outlaw eating to curb greenhouse gasses
16   Ceffer   ignore (5)   2019 Oct 12, 11:44am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

ForcedTQ says
You won't be just trying to keep the total monthly bill below a certain amount to keep from getting grifted.


Won't matter. They have Great Socialist Paradise Grifting Panels devoted to 'fake altruism and social benignity' offenses that are nothing more than further graft enabling taxes, surcharges, fines, fees, licenses, etc. etc. to draw attention away from their waste, corruption, and failure to support reasonable infrastructure while directing more money to their salaries, benefits, and pensions.
17   Hircus   ignore (0)   2019 Oct 12, 2:17pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

The article said

They point out that the electricity supply is getting cleaner — California got more than half its power from climate-friendly sources such as solar and wind in 2017, and is aiming for 100% by 2045 — while gas continues to emit carbon dioxide when burned.


I'm not sure if more than half is accurate. CA loves to play tricks with their energy stats and charts. CA imports a lot of electricity from other states, and so they play this game where they always talk about the % of green energy that the state produces, but cleverly avoid the % of green energy the state actually consumes. The imported energy was mostly fossil sources and "unspecified sources" last I looked.

Basically, they shift the dirty electric generation out of the state, then import it. This probably helps them virtue signal, and also helps to meet some of their political promises about reaching X% green energy by year Y. It probably also made some ppl in the energy industry very rich by being able to benefit from this energy change.
18   SunnyvaleCA   ignore (1)   2019 Oct 12, 3:52pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

EBGuy says
... For natural gas, one therm (100,000 Btus) releases 11.7 pounds CO2 and costs $1.31.
For electricity .294 pounds of CO2 are released per kWh (1 kWh = 3,413 Btus) therefore 8.614 lbs CO2 per therm for $6.38. ...

I assume that is overall average CO2 release per kWh delivered to customers throughout the state. There's a major problem with using that figure in your calculation. Instead, you need to consider the last unit of electricity generated. PG&E always uses all of its "good" generation (solar, wind, nuclear) all the time that brings the CO2 average down; the extra needed electricity is generated by natural gas (or possibly even coal burned in other states). So, if government requirements induce extra electrical generation, then all of that extra generation is from natural gas.

Here's how my natural gas hot water works:
• burn natural gas at optimum rate to directly heat the water in the tank

Here's how an electric hot water heater works:
• burn natural gas at optimum rate to directly heat water to turn to steam (this is actually more efficient than my personal heater)
• use that steam to run a turbine and convert the high pressure into rotational energy (taking losses)
• use the rotation energy in the turbine to convert to electrical energy (taking more losses, of course)
• step up that electrical voltage to very high levels (more losses)
• transmit the high voltage many miles (more losses)
• step the electricity down to residential voltages (more losses)
• transmit the residential voltage the last mile to my home (more losses)
• use the electricity to heat water (basically 100% efficient at this stage— woo hoo!)

I'm sure everyone realizes exactly which process is going to use more natural gas for my hot shower.

That said, I absolutely love my induction cooktop. Very easy to clean, instant heating response, and unbelievably powerful. A cooktop uses such little energy in a home setting that the lack of efficiency is a roundoff error in my overall carbon footprint.

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