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Turkey's Revenge


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2018 Oct 22, 7:39pm   7,497 views  54 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (55)   💰tip   ignore  

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/22/khashoggi-case-has-put-saudi-prince-right-where-erdogan-wants-him

Three weeks to the day since Khashoggi vanished after entering the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, Erdoğan has pledged to table the “naked truth” about what happened to the columnist and critic, whose fate continues to grip both countries and polarise the Middle East.

If he stays true to his pledge, much of the evidence that Turkey has gathered, incriminating Saudi Arabia in a plot to kill Khashoggi, will be revealed: in pictures, video and even bloodcurdling audio said to document his torture and death. ...



Erdoğan has the Saudis – in particular, the crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman (AKA MbS) – right where he wants him. Out of crisis has come opportunity for the veteran Turkish leader, who has never warmed to the brash 33-year-old, and thinks even less of his regional allies.

The two men have vastly different visions for the future of the region: Erdoğan has been a champion of political Islam both at home and abroad, particularly since the rise and fall of Mohamed Morsi, the ill-fated former president of Egypt who hailed from the Muslim Brotherhood. The Turkish president has partnered with Qatar, Riyadh’s regional foe, given shelter to those exiled after Morsi fell, and remained a bulwark for a movement that Riyadh and its ally the United Arab Emirates see as existential threats.

But he has remained on the losing end of the struggle for regional power and influence.


Turkey was the great loser in WWI. If it had been able to hold on to Saudi Arabia and Iraq it would have controlled most of that oil and been a major power today. Now it may be trying to get back some measure of that influence by telling the truth about Khashoggi's death, slowly, in pieces that keep it in the news over and over.

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1   Strategist   2018 Oct 22, 7:53pm  

Patrick says
Three weeks to the day since Khashoggi vanished after entering the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, Erdoğan has pledged to table the “naked truth” about what happened to the columnist and critic, whose fate continues to grip both countries and polarise the Middle East.

If he stays true to his pledge, much of the evidence that Turkey has gathered, incriminating Saudi Arabia in a plot to kill Khashoggi, will be revealed: in pictures, video and even bloodcurdling audio said to document his torture and death. ...


Either Turkey has the real evidence, or not.
If they have the real evidence, they want the Saudis to lie like hell before revealing their evidence to humiliate their enemy Crown Prince MBS.
If they do not have the real evidence, they are merely scaring the Saudis to reveal all the facts.
My guess.....They do not have the evidence, but are convinced of Saudis hand in this, and are scaring the Saudis to reveal more information.
2   Strategist   2018 Oct 22, 7:59pm  

Turkey seems awfully upset about this particular assassination. I wonder why.
I am with the Saudis on this, because Trump seems to be supporting the Saudis, and I trust Trumps judgement with regards to Islam.
Bottom line:
Saudis are lying.
Turkey is lying.
Trump is lying.
Everyone else knows nothing.
he he he he he he he
3   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Oct 22, 8:33pm  

Strategist says
Turkey seems awfully upset about this particular assassination. I wonder why.


As Saudi Arabia under MbS does away with the "Export and Fund Wahabi Extremists" Policy, there's a void.

Erdogan wants to fill that void, and he supports ISIS in Iraq and Syria. It's a fact that ISIS trucks full of oil went via Turkey, and there's no way hundreds of oil trucks were crossing into Turkey - esp. along a border with a state in CIvil War and parts of it full of Kurdish Resistance Fighters - without Erdogan knowing.

Even Foreign Policy can't totally hide this turd.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/04/12/turkeys-double-isis-standard/

Strategist says
Saudis are lying.
Turkey is lying.
Trump is lying.
Everyone else knows nothing.
he he he he he he he


Yep!
4   Patrick   2018 Oct 22, 8:36pm  

I'm no fan of Erdogan either, and do suspect Turkey of funding ISIS.

But I also suspect Saudi Arabia of being ISIS.

Hopefully Turkey will release something more concrete. But at the moment, I am enjoying a little bit of exposure of Saudi crimes in the US press at last. The silence has been deafening.
5   Strategist   2018 Oct 22, 8:38pm  

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
Strategist says
Turkey seems awfully upset about this particular assassination. I wonder why.


As Saudi Arabia under MbS does away with the "Export and Fund Wahabi Extremists" Policy, there's a void.

Erdogan wants to fill that void, and he supports ISIS in Iraq and Syria.


If Erdogan gets assassinated, I will open a champagne bottle.
6   Strategist   2018 Oct 22, 8:42pm  

Anyone who loves Islam, loves Mohammad, and thinks sharia laws are good is the enemy.
7   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Oct 22, 8:43pm  

Patrick says
But I also suspect Saudi Arabia of being ISIS.


YES. Prince Turki and many others helped grow ISIS by exporting Extremists and Funding them - some to get rid of them (make trouble elsewhere), others out of real love for them (like bin Talal, bin Laden, etc.).

However, we finally have a Prince running things who is under 40, has removed the power of the Committee for Vice/Virtue to make arrests on multiple issues, got women driving, and attending events without male chaperones.

That's why he drove Khashoggi, a devout hardline Muslim, a follower of Sayyid Qutb, admirer of Ex-Egyptian President Morsi as well as the Brutal Islamic Theocracy in Algeria, into fits of apoplectic rage.

Unlike the past, where we were promised Reform was Coming in Saudi Arabia with absolutely no concrete moves or anything to point to in that direction, this time we're actually seeing things happening.

We have to recall there's a long history of elements in State and CIA and the Media that support the Muslim Bortherhood cause. There was the previous admin's Presidential Study Directive 11 from Obama allowing cooperation with the MB.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/obama-rolls-dice-on-foreign-policy-in-secretive-presidential-directive

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2018/october/saudi-arabia-religious-freedom-islam-johnnie-moore-uscirf.html

Getting tough on Saudi Arabia at this point will only endanger Liberal Reforms, and scare Liberals into hiding. We should embolden them.
8   Patrick   2018 Oct 22, 8:54pm  

It just strikes me as saying, well, La Cosa Nostra, yes, they've done some bad things, but they are reforming!
9   Strategist   2018 Oct 22, 8:54pm  

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
However, we finally have a Prince running things who is under 40, has removed the power of the Committee for Vice/Virtue to make arrests on multiple issues, got women driving, and attending events without male chaperones.


It's obvious MBS is not a crazy Islamic fanatic. If he has to kill extremist Muslims to suppress radicals, I'm all for it.
If MBS succeeds, he should get the Noble Peace Prize, along with Trump.
10   Patrick   2018 Oct 22, 8:55pm  

They need some marketing! How about this:

"Saudi Arabia, the good Nazis"
11   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Oct 22, 9:06pm  

Patrick says
It just strikes me as saying, well, La Cosa Nostra, yes, they've done some bad things, but they are reforming!

I hate Saudi Arabia with a goddamned passion. I still think it's shit.

Nuking Mecca ain't gonna happen, unfortunately.

Nothing will cure the world of Islam than the Black Stone of the Kabbah being propelled into the Kuiper Belt.

The good news is that the militant Muslim Princes that financed 9/11 are also MbS' enemies, so he will torture them anyway, and use bonesaws on those responsible while they are still alive.I say let MbS flay their skin with 100 lashes until they pass out, wait for them to regain consciousness and do it again and again for weeks on end until they die. That's much more effective and just than...

... If they are brought to justice in the USA, they will be on trial for years and the same WaPo Establishment Types who whinge about Khashoggi's death today will be making excuses for them. "Bin Talal dindu nuthin' wrong, besides he gave so much to Harvard and funded Apple and Twitter. Puhlease, leave my Militant Muslim Plotters Alonnnnnnne!!!" Many will get off entirely, or just a few years for financing terror. They will have the very best lawyers that great fortunes can buy from all their secret offshore accounts worldwide and an unlimited defendant's budget that might clean out the Justice Department Budget before they run out of cash.

Best case scenario, they end up in a Cushy Fed Facility with Cable TV and 3 square meals, while the Muslim and Leftoid Press lauds them as "Mighty Resistance Fighters against the Oppressor American Regime".

In the MbS tortures the fuck out of them scenario, they confess to everything, they get the painful, exquisite tortuous death they deserve for all the Americans they killed, the downside is we may not live to read about it - but our kids will.
12   Strategist   2018 Oct 22, 9:06pm  

Patrick says
They need some marketing! How about this:

"Saudi Arabia, the good Nazis"


What if the war was between the Saudis and the Nazis? who would you support?
what if the war was between Sunnis, Shiites, and Nazis. who would you support?
13   Goran_K   2018 Oct 22, 9:30pm  

Nothing would be better than Saudi and Turkey shooting at each other, with a little ISIS and Syria sprinkled on top. It's about time they spent their money killing each other than killing Americans.
14   bob2356   2018 Oct 23, 4:59am  

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

However, we finally have a Prince running things who is under 40, has removed the power of the Committee for Vice/Virtue to make arrests on multiple issues, got women driving, and attending events without male chaperones.


I notice stopping funding for terrorism isn't on the list. Nor will it ever be; All MBS is doing with his "liberalizations" is trying to delay the fall of the house of saud. With 80% of saudi's under 25, that have a degree in islmaic studies, lacking any quantifications/skills to make a living at all that are totally dependent on oil money welfare to live the oil money drying up day of reckoning is in sight for the royal family. . Like putin brutal internal political repression and playing up external enemies boogeymen is the only option to survive.
15   bob2356   2018 Oct 23, 5:11am  

Goran_K says
Nothing would be better than Saudi and Turkey shooting at each other, with a little ISIS and Syria sprinkled on top. It's about time they spent their money killing each other than killing Americans.


Maybe you should look at a map some time. There is the small matter of Iraq and Syria being between them. The saudi's have a handful of DF3 chinese cruise missiles that can't hit the broad side of a continent that could reach turkey, but when they are gone that's it. Neither have enough bomber capacity to do shit even if they could overfly syria and iraq. What would they be shooting?

Then there is the small matter of turkey being a Nato country that the US is treaty bound to defend from attacks.
16   bob2356   2018 Oct 23, 5:20am  

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

The good news is that the militant Muslim Princes that financed 9/11 are also MbS' enemies, so he will torture them anyway, and use bonesaws on those responsible while they are still alive.I say let MbS flay their skin with 100 lashes until they pass out, wait for them to regain consciousness and do it again and again for weeks on end until they die. That's much more effective and just than..


and who are these militant princes that financed 9/11 and are mbs's enemies? another non existent list we will never see.
17   Strategist   2018 Oct 23, 6:15am  

bob2356 says
With 80% of saudi's under 25, that have a degree in islmaic studies, lacking any quantifications/skills to make a living at all that are totally dependent on oil money welfare


And stupid, lazy, violent. A total waste of Space.
18   Heraclitusstudent   2018 Oct 23, 10:53am  

bob2356 says
All MBS is doing with his "liberalizations" is trying to delay the fall of the house of saud.


I think the 'reason' for "liberalizations" is that they understand they have maybe 15 yrs of selling oil in front of them.

Peak oil is about to fall on them. Plus in any case the world will move decisively toward electric cars during these 15 yrs.

After that they're down to selling dates and camels.
19   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Oct 23, 11:28am  

bob2356 says
and who are these militant princes that financed 9/11 and are mbs's enemies? another non existent list we will never see.

Did you tell us what Sanctions Obama imposed on Saudi Arabia for executing all those gays and witches yet? And why he rewarded Iran for torturing and executing ditto with the Iran Deal?

You're great at demanding answers, bad at providing any.

bob2356 says
I notice stopping funding for terrorism isn't on the list. Nor will it ever be; All MBS is doing with his "liberalizations" is trying to delay the fall of the house of saud. With 80% of saudi's under 25, that have a degree in islmaic studies, lacking any quantifications/skills to make a living at all that are totally dependent on oil money welfare to live the oil money drying up day of reckoning is in sight for the royal family. . Like putin brutal internal political repression and playing up external enemies boogeymen is the only option to survive.


Now do The Mullocracy of Iran
20   bob2356   2018 Oct 23, 2:02pm  

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Did you tell us what Sanctions Obama imposed on Saudi Arabia for executing all those gays and witches yet? And why he rewarded Iran for torturing and executing ditto with the Iran Deal?


Please please stop embarrassing yourself with this. When a government arrests someone, has a trial, then executes them it's called a legal system. It may be a bad legal system. It may be a legal system many people disagree with. But it's accepted internationally as a normal function of government. When a country sends 15 goons to another country to kill someone it's called murder. In case you haven't looked at the news in a long time murder is always news worthy no matter where it happens.

This is basic government 101 stuff.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
You're great at demanding answers, bad at providing any.


I;m not the one that keeps claiming to have non existent lists of names. .You made the claims, you back them up.
21   Strategist   2018 Oct 23, 4:06pm  

bob2356 says
When a country sends 15 goons to another country to kill someone it's called murder. In case you haven't looked at the news in a long time murder is always news worthy no matter where it happens.


Only this murder is newsworthy. Thousands of murders the world over every single day, and only this one gets the front page news day after day.
22   RWSGFY   2018 Oct 23, 7:34pm  

Heraclitusstudent says
Peak oil is about to fall on them.


Again?
23   Patrick   2018 Oct 23, 7:37pm  

Strategist says
Only this murder is newsworthy. Thousands of murders the world over every single day, and only this one gets the front page news day after day.


Well, it was exceptionally brutal and blatant, and apparently ordered by the head of a country we are "friends" with. That is pretty unusual.

We should be grateful that Saudi crimes are getting looked into instead of simply excused or swept under the rug, like they did with 9/11.
24   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Oct 23, 7:43pm  

bob2356 says
Please please stop embarrassing yourself with this. When a government arrests someone, has a trial, then executes them it's called a legal system. It may be a bad legal system. It may be a legal system many people disagree with. But it's accepted internationally as a normal function of government. When a country sends 15 goons to another country to kill someone it's called murder. In case you haven't looked at the news in a long time murder is always news worthy no matter where it happens.


So it's okay to torture and execute Gays and Witches, so long as there is a Trial in an Authoritarian Country like SA and Iran. It doesn't merit any pressure or sanctions.

The lengths you go to find a means to excuse the different standards being applied is pretty embarrassing. I'm blushing on your behalf.

Didn't the USSR have "Trials"? I heard it was a bad legal system... that many people "Disagree" with.
25   Strategist   2018 Oct 23, 8:23pm  

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
bob2356 says
Please please stop embarrassing yourself with this. When a government arrests someone, has a trial, then executes them it's called a legal system. It may be a bad legal system. It may be a legal system many people disagree with. But it's accepted internationally as a normal function of government. When a country sends 15 goons to another country to kill someone it's called murder. In case you haven't looked at the news in a long time murder is always news worthy no matter where it happens.


So it's okay to torture and execute Gays and Witches, so long as there is a Trial in an Authoritarian Country like SA and Iran. It doesn't merit any pressure or sanctions.


Have you read the Koran? It is OK. Allah says so.
26   Strategist   2018 Oct 23, 8:28pm  

On behalf of all these ignorant infidels, I apologize on their behalf. They were not born with the intelligence to figure out the greatness of Islamic laws. It takes a lot of intelligence to know when a woman should be stoned to death.
27   bob2356   2018 Oct 24, 5:45am  

Strategist says


Only this murder is newsworthy. Thousands of murders the world over every single day, and only this one gets the front page news day after day.


Plenty of murders make front page news day after day. The russian poisoning of Litvinenko was front page in the news around the world for weeks without 3 countries and leaders making the story bigger and bigger every day. Do you suppose the press reported russia poisoning Litvinenko on the front page because they were upset with MBS making KSA liberal ? ROFLOL.
28   bob2356   2018 Oct 24, 6:17am  

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says


So it's okay to torture and execute Gays and Witches, so long as there is a Trial in an Authoritarian Country like SA and Iran. It doesn't merit any pressure or sanctions.


Nice job with that strawman. Keep on making shit up and claiming I said it.. The lengths you go to to create strawmen and misdirection are impressive.

I said It isn't front page news, I made no comment on condoning or condemning. Governments around the world torture and/or kill people all the time for all kinds of reasons under the cloak of their legal systems. Including the USA. Where is your outrage at the USA scooping up people (including innocent people that could have easily been checked out but weren't) then sending them to be tortured or killed in places like egypt and jordan. That was without a trial of any kind. People have been held in Gitmo for 16 years now without a trial. What pressure and sanctions should be put on the USA for doing this? By the standards of many countries this is barbarism. I guess you never heard the one about glass houses and throwing stones.

The lengths you go to find a means to excuse the different standards being applied is pretty embarrassing. I'm blushing on your behalf
29   bob2356   2018 Oct 24, 6:30am  

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says


So it's okay to torture and execute Gays and Witches, so long as there is a Trial in an Authoritarian Country like SA and Iran


or the USA and UK. You do remember that sodomy was a felony in the USA until the last law was struck down in 1962 don't you?. With it being a capital crime until south carolina being the last state to do away with the death penalty for sodomy in 1873. So yea it was ok to torture and execute gays in the good old USA for a long time. The UK had the same laws (the USA took them from the UK) The last execution for sodomy in the UK took place on 27 November 1835 when James Pratt and John Smith were hanged at Newgate.

The lengths you go to find a means to excuse the different standards being applied is pretty embarrassing. I'm blushing on your behalf
30   CBOEtrader   2018 Oct 24, 6:37am  

1835 is the same as 2018. Thanks bob
31   Strategist   2018 Oct 24, 8:01am  

bob2356 says
Strategist says


Only this murder is newsworthy. Thousands of murders the world over every single day, and only this one gets the front page news day after day.


Plenty of murders make front page news day after day. The russian poisoning of Litvinenko was front page in the news around the world for weeks without 3 countries and leaders making the story bigger and bigger every day. Do you suppose the press reported russia poisoning Litvinenko on the front page because they were upset with MBS making KSA liberal ? ROFLOL.


This Kashoggi guy was not murdered in a foreign country by his government as in the case of Russia. He was murdered on Saudi soil.
An embassy is considered foreign soil.
They made a big thing out of something that happens in Islamic countries every day. Stoning a 16 yearly girl that eloped is by far, more horrible than this murder.
32   Strategist   2018 Oct 24, 8:07am  

bob2356 says
So yea it was ok to torture and execute gays in the good old USA for a long time.



Yes, it WAS OK in the good old days, until secular beliefs civilized the religious beliefs. Guess that makes it OK for Islamic countries to continue with their barbaric practices in todays world.
Good thinking, Bob. I hereby nominate you for the Patnet Peace Prize.
33   Rin   2018 Oct 25, 5:23am  

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
bob2356 says
and who are these militant princes that financed 9/11 and are mbs's enemies? another non existent list we will never see.

Did you tell us what Sanctions Obama imposed on Saudi Arabia for executing all those gays and witches yet? And why he rewarded Iran for torturing and executing ditto with the Iran Deal?

You're great at demanding answers, bad at providing any.


Strategist says
bob2356 says
So yea it was ok to torture and execute gays in the good old USA for a long time.



Yes, it WAS OK in the good old days, until secular beliefs civilized the religious beliefs. Guess that makes it OK for Islamic countries to continue with their barbaric practices in todays world.
Good thinking, Bob. I hereby nominate you for the Patnet Peace Prize.


Well, that's our Bob, Mr "There's no London University, it's University of London. BAHAHAHA!"

It's time to remind ourselves of the 'Death of a Princess' thread on KSA ...

http://patrick.net/post/1306834/2017-05-30-saudi-arabia-s-death-of-a-princess-needs-its-own-thread

I remember hearing about the whole 'Death of a Princess' controversy as a kid so it kinda surprised me to find that almost no one knew anything about it, post 9/11, given the fact that most of the hijackers were Saudi.

Think about it, the House of Saud asked for the removal of the ambassador of Britain and tried economic sanctions against the UK to repress a movie about an actual event, which they didn't deny.

Instead, it was turned into another Islamic victimhood story ...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/princess/reflect/harvard.html

Excerpt: "Prince Sultan also said that the aim of the film was to insult Islam. Much of Saudi criticism of the film was directed towards what was called its portrayal of Islam as a harsh, insensitive religion, since the princess was depicted as having been summarily executed without a confession or a trial. The severity of punishment and the speed with which the princess was executed put doubts in the minds of viewers as to the fairness of Koranic justice. Summary execution is not the norm in Saudi Arabia."

Well, it's good to know that there was due process involved, where a person was accused of adultery, when she was actually single. How about being more candor like saying that they were pissed that she didn't marry into the low gene pool extended family and thus, was executed for treason against the House of Saud? At least that would be honest.

You see ...

Treason = High Crime and Misdemeanor

Single Woman Dating an (unrelated) Muslim guy = Normal person (who doesn't want a kid with birth defects)

And since Romeo and Juliet were planning on getting married, it wouldn't even be adultery in the future.
34   Strategist   2018 Oct 25, 6:33am  

Rin says
Excerpt: "Prince Sultan also said that the aim of the film was to insult Islam. Much of Saudi criticism of the film was directed towards what was called its portrayal of Islam as a harsh, insensitive religion


I clearly remember the controversy that film created, even though I never saw it.
Hey Prince Sultan, your fucked up religion goes well beyond "harsh, insensitive" We will insult it, humiliate it, and destroy it. Just wait and see.
35   bob2356   2018 Oct 25, 10:26am  

Strategist says

Yes, it WAS OK in the good old days, until secular beliefs civilized the religious beliefs. Guess that makes it OK for Islamic countries to continue with their barbaric practices in todays world.


So that is 1 vote in favor of the USA torturing and executing gays/witches.. Secular beliefs civilized religious beliefs since the Iraq war where the US shipped people off to be tortured and murdered? Damn want to post some links about that, I missed it in the news. So I take it you approve of this.

Try to follow the conversation. The question is if a country following it's laws for whatever purpose is front page newsworthy or not.

Strategist says

Good thinking, Bob. I hereby nominate you for the Patnet Peace Prize.


Another poster who can't figure out that there was neither approval nor condemnation.
36   bob2356   2018 Oct 25, 10:33am  

Strategist says


This Kashoggi guy was not murdered in a foreign country by his government as in the case of Russia. He was murdered on Saudi soil.
An embassy is considered foreign soil.


ROFLOL. You guys are going to amazing lengths to avoid admitting that the fair hair boy MBS fucked up big time and managed to show .the new boss is the same as the old boss. They tried and convicted him right there in the embassy? Damn that is amazing. When did you learn this? Want to post some links to the story, I can't find it.

Still waiting for all the MBS cheerleaders to talk about all the radical madras and mosques MBS has shut down. Or the new restrictions on money going out to terrorists. As in none, zero, zippo.
37   bob2356   2018 Oct 25, 10:36am  

CBOEtrader says
1835 is the same as 2018. Thanks bob


Vote 2 in favor of the US torturing and executing gays/witches. Also in favor of people being shipped off for torture and murder by the US as in the 2000's I assume.
.
38   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Oct 25, 11:14am  

bob2356 says
Nice job with that strawman. Keep on making shit up and claiming I said it.. The lengths you go to to create strawmen and misdirection are impressive.

Bob, it's not a strawman, nor is it Whataboutery. It's a direct regurgitation of your own words:

It's okay to execute Gays and Witches - and apparently unmarried Princesses for adultery - if you have a Trial based on Shari'a Law and Islamism. But not Muslim Brotherhood shills who are trying to pick up paperwork to divorce their wife in Saudi Arabia - so they only have to pay 130 days support.

"Get your hands out of your pockets, you dirty old man".

www.youtube.com/embed/SKOCmBXrVY8

Trivia the infamous Judge Freisler was one of those Nazis who had been been a Bolshevik prior to switching.
39   Rin   2018 Oct 25, 2:33pm  

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
It's okay to execute Gays and Witches - and apparently unmarried Princesses for adultery - if you have a Trial based on Shari'a Law and Islamism.


Dude, even in an ordinary Banana Republic, where a set of parents disapprove of their daughter marrying someone else, the worst that would happen is that they'd be killed off, clandestinely (via paid hit men), and then, the bodies would be discovered months or years later.

Here, the Govt of Saudi actually exacted a trial of adultery on a single woman & her lover, which was really her fiance (and thus, her future husband), and had both of them whacked in a public execution. That's barbarism, even beyond the norms of Banana Republicanism.
40   Patrick   2018 Oct 25, 5:52pm  

I remember that case. There was a documentary about it, called "death of a princess".

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