patrick.net

It appears to me that Claxton is saying less centralized policy and more bottom up, community, policies are in order.

I think he is right.

Same could be said for the federal government, constitution and states rights and all.

Ironman says

In just about everyone one of these black shootings, the perps were the ones that escalated the encounter. The majority of them already had rap sheets which shows in the past they don't give a shit about laws or the police. When they have the encounter, they don't follow the directions of the cop, they resist arrest, run or fight back.

Once again I can count on you to be clueless on the concept. Didn't read the article did you? It's only one page long, you can manage if you really try. Here try this part:

"It's not just about these individual two cases now, it's about the history, a pattern of cases that have happened over the last several decades."

So suspects, which is the correct word, before police were given so much military hardware to play rambo with and switched to military style training followed directions, didn't resist arrest, run, or fight back? Is that why there were so many less shootings than today? Everyone knows how much more dangerous it is to be a cop today than 50 years ago. It's important for cops to be ready to shoot in an instant.

bob2356 says

"It's not just about these individual two cases now, it's about the history, a pattern of cases that have happened over the last several decades."

Policing post late 1990's LAPD Rampart scandal is quite different. The Feds have subsequently stepped into many dysfunctional departments, involved the courts, and entirely reformed those Departments. Police management has entiret changed during that period and tactics and policies in modern policing are very different from those used more than 20 years ago.

So going back more than 20 years to seek out a so called pattern(a dubious exercise in and of itself) is absolutely absurd. In short the policing mistakes made in the 50's through 90's have almost zero relevance to any perceived mistakes in modern policing.

Now that said, you still have the burden of explaining how the police racially kill when the same number of whites and blacks are killed by police in light of the fact that nearly 50% of crime is committed by blacks.

I'd suggest the problem may be one of poverty(though that's hard to prove since there are by raw numbers more whites in poverty than blacks). I'd also suggest that the problem far more realistically lies in a black culture that encourages crime and disrespects law enforcement to the point of non compliance.

I'd further suggest that the rage is misplaced and would be better directed at the blacks that commit 90%+ of the murders on their own race.

I've said all along we need Good Cops/Bad Cops.
The Good cops patrol the street, when they pull you over you comply you don't run you don't hit them you don't shoot them you take your ticket, or you peacefully get in the back of the paddy wagon.
It would behoove you to do so. Because it would be well understood that if you don't. Right now at this very moment, back at the station there are 20 ex-Navy Seal guys stabing at their fingers with a knife on the table bored out of their skull praying that today will be the day that they get the call for officer needs assistance.

Did Bob make an argument based on race? The problem is the militarization of the police force. Us against them attitude.

tatupu70 says

Did Bob make an argument based on race? The problem is the militarization of the police force. Us against them attitude.

Except law enforcement agencies have been "demilitarizing" for about 20 years now, accelerated once Brattons success using community based policing was achieved in New York and then Los Angeles.

The "us vs them" mentality isn't anything to do with militarization. Even with ramped up hiring directly from the community(i.e. Pushing hard to hire cops that actually live in the community they patrol) has failed to eliminate that mentality, or even reduce it. That fix will need to come from the community itself.

dodgerfanjohn says

I'd suggest the problem may be one of poverty(though that's hard to prove since there are by raw numbers more whites in poverty than blacks). I'd also suggest that the problem far more realistically lies in a black culture that encourages crime and disrespects law enforcement to the point of non compliance.

Except the pathology indicates that the government meddling caused black unemployment to rise since the 30s

indigenous says

Except the pathology indicates that the government meddling caused black unemployment to rise since the 30s

Interesting.

So you believe Dallas was not caused by Islamic extremism, but by the Fed?

dodgerfanjohn says

Except law enforcement agencies have been "demilitarizing" for about 20 years now

I'm not sure I agree with that statement. Here's Ferguson, MO:

dodgerfanjohn says

The "us vs them" mentality isn't anything to do with militarization. Even with ramped up hiring directly from the community(i.e. Pushing hard to hire cops that actually live in the community they patrol) has failed to eliminate that mentality, or even reduce it. That fix will need to come from the community itself.

I disagree again. The mentality has to be changed in the way the police are hired and trained.

HydroCabron says

So you believe Dallas was not caused by Islamic extremism, but by the Fed?

Sarcasm duly noted, and yes the pathology starts with the Federal government.

Riot. Not sure if that's cops or the national guard, but a riot scene is always going to look like that.

As to the way cops are trained and hired, wouldn't you have to have knowledge of that process prior to making such a statement?

Isn't your comment worthless without having such knowledge?

indigenous says

Sarcasm duly noted, and yes the pathology starts with the Federal government.

The boy(presumably) is high on sarcasm.

dodgerfanjohn says

As to the way cops are trained and hired, wouldn't you have to have knowledge of that process prior to making such a statement?

Isn't your comment worthless without having such knowledge?

If you want to argue that training and hiring aren't the problem, then maybe. But I don't need to know the details of the training and hiring practices to be able to judge the results of them.

dodgerfanjohn says

Policing post late 1990's LAPD Rampart scandal is quite different. The Feds have subsequently stepped into many dysfunctional departments, involved the courts, and entirely reformed those Departments. Police management has entiret changed during that period and tactics and policies in modern policing are very different from those used more than 20 years ago.

The feds have stepped into 16 police departments out of 18,000. Entirely reformed? Not from what I've read. At the most you could optimistically say mixed results and that's really really generous. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/11/13/forced-reforms-mixed-results/

dodgerfanjohn says

Except law enforcement agencies have been "demilitarizing" for about 20 years now, accelerated once Brattons success using community based policing was achieved in New York and then Los Angeles.

Anything at all to back up this fantasy? It was 20 years ago that the military started giving excess equipment to police forces and police forces started using outside ex military consultants for police training. How exactly have police forces been demilitarizing for 20 years when they just started militarizing 20 years ago?

I think that if there is a policy change needed, it's that police should automatically shoot to kill anyone who resists arrest or runs away.

dodgerfanjohn says

Riot. Not sure if that's cops or the national guard, but a riot scene is always going to look like that.

Yes I certainly understand that. Let see swat team picture

Seal team picture.

You are right they look nothing alike.

DieBankOfAmericaPhukkingDie says

America needs to cut taxes and shake down poor people for fines to pay police pensions, exactly as the Founding Fathers intended.

That is a great point that needs fixed immediately. Police fines, seizures need to go to charity or paying down the national debt. This is a huge problem.

The cops don't get paid enough. Why should they keep doing their job at all Are we headed towards only allowing black police officers on the streets? Paying them the same pitiful salary of course.

Why would anyone want to be a policeman?

deepcgi says

The cops don't get paid enough. Why should they keep doing their job at all Are we headed towards only allowing black police officers on the streets? Paying them the same pitiful salary of course.

Why would anyone want to be a policeman?

I'm ok with it as long as you don't infringe on my rights to carry.

I have zero qualms about stuffing anyone who threatens my family or property full of buckshot and taking their life. I grew up killing rabbits, pheasants, chukar, dove, and quail with a .12 guage semi auto browning. I love that gun. Justifiable taking a human life with it is no issue at all.

That's the awesome thing about being a black and white thinker Marcus....there's no moral ambiguity!

Ironman says

bob2356 says

It was 20 years ago that the military started giving excess equipment to police forces and police forces started using outside ex military consultants for police training.

So what's your point... it's just excess equipment for training..

Please document all the NEW killings the cops have done since they've got this equipment.

It's not just excess equipment for training. It's part and parcel of policing at every level today. You know that perfectly well so you are just bullshitting. Worse is the changes in training. Many police forces have gone to outside training run by ex military rather than traditional police academies run by active or ex police. Police are police, not military. Read Rise of the Warrior Cop sometime, like that would ever happen. or do some actual research on the subject, that definitely will never happen unless the NRA starts printing it. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323848804578608040780519904

Either you know and pretend not to know, or don't know and shouldn't be commenting that the data just isn't available to document police killings. It's not reported to any type of central authority, it is scattered throughout 18,000 police organizations.

The entire police culture has changed a lot. Which makes no sense, it's safer to be a cop today than it ever was. I worked for 8 years, 5 years as general manager, for one of the larger amusement operations at the jersey shore in the late 60's early 70's. This was the heyday of the jersey shore when the boardwalks were so crowded on weekends you could barely walk and they were mostly arrogant young people from north jersey or NY with a big attitude problem looking to party hard and cause trouble. Security was a big part of my job and I worked the the cops day in and day out, was well as hung out and went partying with them. I saw a lot of people run or resist arrest and never saw once a cop pull out their gun. The 8 battery flashlight was the weapon of choice if needed. Today guns out is the first thing that happens many if not most situations. That is the training, there is no other explanation.

Ironman says

bob2356 says

before police were given so much military hardware to play rambo with

Not a SINGLE one of these Black perps were killed with "military hardware", but thanks for your fantasy!!

If anything, the police need real military hardware.

Strategist says

Ironman says

bob2356 says

before police were given so much military hardware to play rambo with

Not a SINGLE one of these Black perps were killed with "military hardware", but thanks for your fantasy!!

If anything, the police need real military hardware.

It's a culture problem. When you train them as soldiers and equip them as soldiers, it's no wonder they act as if they are at war with US citizens.

tatupu70 says

If anything, the police need real military hardware.

It's a culture problem. When you train them as soldiers and equip them as soldiers, it's no wonder they act as if they are at war with US citizens.

It's a war on crime. We go to great lengths and expense to catch criminals, only to let them lose. That criminal asshole who ran to the police officer had 19 arrests. When it comes to arrests, the rule should be.....5 strikes and you're out.

tatupu70 says

It's a culture problem. When you train them as soldiers and equip them as soldiers, it's no wonder they act as if they are at war with US citizens.

The quotas to fill private prisons and bring "superpredators" to Heel doesn't help, either.

Let me know when Prison Industry Lobbyist Bill Shaheen is no longer a dem superdelegate.

Ironman says

Once again, that's just bullshit. In ALL these recent killings, the perps weren't killed by military hardware, MRAPS, M-4's, etc. They were all killed by the cop's handguns, which have been around for multiple decades. Using the "equipment" and training as an excuse is as bad as Obama blaming hardware (the AR-15's) for killing people.

So they weren't trained they were just handed a badge and gun? Of course the training affects how police do their job. A really big DUH moment even for you.

Ironman says

Once again, you're full of crap. Many of current law enforcement are former military, they've already had all that training before joining the police force.

Want to quantify many? Whatever number you pull out of your ass? How do you know I"m full of crap if you don't have anything to back up your bullshit with? No one has done any formal research on this that I can find. The best number I can find after searching hard is a bunch of anecdotal 15-20% from cops talking about their forces. If anything the number of ex military available to become cops is a much smaller pool than any time since the 1930's. The number of military today is 30% of what is was in the 60's and 60% of what it was in the 80's. http://historyinpieces.com/research/us-military-personnel-1954-2014

Using your "logic" (or logical fallacy) why weren't there a lot more people "murdered by cop" in the past when there were a lot more ex military in the police forces.

Ironman says

There is a growing segment of the population that has no moral values, don't respect authority, grew up in broken households and don't take personal responsibility for their actions. These are the assholes that are getting killed as a result of not following the directions of the cops.

Does your asshole ever get sore from pulling so much from it. Anything to back this up? Of course not.

Ironman says

I've searched for background information on everyone of these "murdered by cop" stories. IN EVERY CASE, the perp had some sort of past police record. IN EVERY CASE!!!! These perps had already shown in their past that they DON'T respect laws and DON'T respect the cops.

Of course that's true. Everyone knows from the voluminous documentation you've provided that 30 or 50 or 100 years ago cops only arrested first offenders who politely walked over and got into the police car after the police said please. I love reading all the studiously researched material you provide.

Ironman says

Total lie... You just think that's the case because you see the amature videos showing the END of the encounter, NOT the beginning and escalation of the incident.

You know what I see how exactly?

I'm basing my opinions on a lot of reading actually. You know, those rectangular things full of paper called books. Believe it or not there is a building in your town that has thousands of them that lets you walk in and borrow them to read, it's called the library. A surprising amount of what I read criticizing today's policing is written by cops. There is even some good reading dating from the 90's that pretty well predicts the problems we are seeing today. One example: http://www.csmonitor.com/1997/0402/040297.us.us.2.html

I don't watch youtube videos or video news. Just because you and dan somehow believe a 30 second youtube video answers the secrets to the universe that hundreds of pages of carefully documented research can't don't project it onto me.

You are basing your opinions on it's true because I believe it should be true.

thunderlips11 says

The quotas to fill private prisons and bring "superpredators" to Heel doesn't help, either.

Let me know when Prison Industry Lobbyist Bill Shaheen is no longer a dem superdelegate.

Follow the money. Yea, the press has really dropped the ball on looking into the fact that DHS has dropped billions onto police departments since 9/11 and a lot the money is being sucked up by military contractors selling military gear and doing police training. The military industrial complex is morphing into the police industrial complex and prison industrial complex. It's nice to have friends in congress.

Laws need changing. The war on drugs need to end, false rape claims and the lefts war on emn -where men cna be jailed of rmissing outrageous amount of child support needs to end. Crimes should only be if something hurts another one physically.

Police can arrest someone going against the law. if farting is a global warming felony-then cops will roam the streets looking to arrest farters. Laws need to change.

Need to isn't really relevant anymore. Cops are going to wise up, or die. For too long we've been putting up with a two tier system where the poor are oppressed, and the rich never charged. Police appear as the arm of that corruption to most, and will suffer the wrath of the masses until they back down, or are destroyed.

This isn't a bold prediction, it's historical reality. In every revolution the masses have risen up violently to overthrow their oppressors. Chickens are coming home to roost...

thunderlips11 says

The quotas to fill private prisons and bring "superpredators" to Heel doesn't help, either.

Private prisons are a small percentage of the prison system.

The obvious problem is public prison unions.

NuttBoxer says

Need to isn't really relevant anymore. Cops are going to wise up, or die. For too long we've been putting up with a two tier system where the poor are oppressed, and the rich never charged. Police appear as the arm of that corruption to most, and will suffer the wrath of the masses until they back down, or are destroyed.

Or they go "Baltimore route" and simply withdraw from the most crime-infested ...err... oppressed areas.

zzyzzx says

I think that if there is a policy change needed, it's that police should automatically shoot to kill anyone who resists arrest or runs away.

I'm pretty sure you have what's called an authoritarian personality.

DieBankOfAmericaPhukkingDie says

America needs to cut taxes and shake down poor people for fines to pay police pensions, exactly as the Founding Fathers intended.

1. America needs to RAISE taxes on the IDLE RICH and people like warren Buffett who famously pays a lower tax rate than his secretary . Doctors and other professionals, eh not so much

2. I guess the reason why Vallejo and San Bernardino declared bankruptcy was due to tax cuts and shaking down poor people. Oh wait.....

3. Do you agree with everything the founding fathers intended?

bob2356 says

This was the heyday of the jersey shore when the boardwalks were so crowded on weekends you could barely walk and they were mostly arrogant young people from north jersey or NY with a big attitude problem looking to party hard and cause trouble.

That's still the norm. They are know as bennys' or guidos

The transfer directly from military to police was authorized in a 1990 bill (Democratic Majority Congress) specifically for counter-drug programs. Bill Clinton signed a 1997 bill which greatly expanded it.

thunderlips11 says

Bill Clinton signed a 1997 bill which greatly expanded it.

He is nothing if not pernicious. Interesting to see the antecedents of these events.