patrick.net

“embarrassed and politically correct

perfect example: all the muslims who still think that 9/11 was an inside job

Many mainstream Muslim organizations have gone so far as to say the Islamic State is, in fact, un-Islamic

For more of this kind of thing, I refer to your post where you point out that McVeigh, raised by Christians, was an atheist. For some reason, this distincton is permissible when you make it, even though it's not grounded in fact:

Time: Are you religious? McVeigh: I was raised Catholic. I was confirmed Catholic (received the sacrament of confirmation). Through my military years, I sort of lost touch with the religion. I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs. Time: Do you believe in God? McVeigh: I do believe in a God, yes. But that's as far as I want to discuss. If I get too detailed on some things that are personal like that, it gives people an easier way [to] alienate themselves from me and that's all they are looking for now.

What's your point?

More people with Religious issues. Their issues has to be everyone else's issues.

He want's us to atone for every Christian historal villan with religious issues as well.

I'm sorry but I can only deal with the villans in my time, until those whacky Scientist can implement time travel. That's the best I can do.

They want what everyone else wants. Sex, and lots of it. and blow jobs, with the occasional finger in the butt

ISIS is very Islamic, you're correct. Check out these polling results, such as this Wenzel poll result, "58% of Muslim-Americans believe criticism of Islam or Muhammad is not protected free speech under the First Amendment." https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalDiscussion/comments/3k3wdg/i_keep_hearing_muslims_want_to_force_their/

See also https://www.youtube.com/embed/EFDeIDU__C4

[mirror] The leader of the KKK claims to be Christian. Pretending that they are un-Christian is the act of an embarrassed politically correct ninny. All Christians should admit that their religion begets hate. [/mirror]

the KKK does not claim that jesus taught them to be racist.

ISIS correctly claims that mohammed told them to make war on all unbelievers until only islam is left in the world.

Christians were the ones that stopped the KKK (by revealing how infantile KKK behavior was). Christians stand for human rights today across the globe, not racial bigotry.

Here is a side-by-side comparison of Christianity and Islam: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Jesus-Muhammad.htm

There will always be rogue groups that splinter from any organization (political, economic, religious, etc). In history, the KKK splintered from a subset of Southern U.S. fundamentalism and they caused some terrible havoc for a limited time. Everybody knows that those KKK splinter groups, no matter their rhetoric, never represented Christianity. This can be proven, for example, by polling Christians.

By contrast, when you poll Muslims across the globe, their statistically high support for ISIS shows that ISIS is not a splinter group. It's a competing faction of Islam, not militant Islam, but Islam as a whole. So ISIS needs to be addressed and contained within Islamic countries, which actually creates opportunity for human rights heroes and a great saga among spiritual people in those countries. They are in the midst of their journey.

Christianity has its own journey too. For example, many self-proclaimed Christians preach today the evil and non-biblical dogma of an everlasting hell. That dogma is psychotic and oppressive when you think about. The reality, fortunately, is that the literal Christian texts specify explicitly that the Creator is just, and that only the Creator and those who live in Him (firstly, the Son) live perpetually. The concept that everything lives forever is not a Christian one, its basically borrowed from Egypt & Babylon.

It's true that Christ's message is more peaceful than Muhammad's, but it is people who use it one way or another. There are plenty of peaceful Muslim countries, which show that the religion doesn't make people killers. It's also true that many people who call themselves Christian don't follow anything close to Christ's teachings. In fact being Christian doesn't seem to confer any tendency toward better behavior: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/misinformation-and-facts-about-secularism-and-religion.

This clearly shows that the positive message put forth by Christ has had no positive impact on Christians. Why do we assume that the violent parts of the Koran are the real reason for terrorism? How do you explain all of the Muslim countries that are peaceful? Turkey is our ally in these wars for "Christ's sake."

the KKK does not claim that jesus taught them to be racist.

Actually they do. They quote Jesus as saying to the Jews in John 10:24-27: “ye are not of my sheep…My sheep here my voice, and I know them, and they follow me". for a start. There are plenty of biblical references in KKK's justification for racism. Be glad to look some up later.

bob2356 says

There are plenty of biblical references in KKK's justification for racism. Be glad to look some up later.

Please do. God knows, the Christian's have been sifting through the Koran finding every nugget that inspires violence whether or not most Muslims would agree with that interpretation.

Matthew 7:12

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Well I can go to most Christian nations and trash talk Christianity all day long and expect to be back safe at home.
Can one go to Muslim nations and trash talk Islam and still expect your head to be attached to your body?

lostand confused says

Well I can go to most Christian nations and trash talk Christianity all day long and expect to be back safe at home.

Can one go to Muslim nations and trash talk Islam and still expect your head to be attached to your body?

I vote for sending one of the leftoids over and giving it a try. After all we could be wrong.

YesYNot says

Why do we assume that the violent parts of the Koran are the real reason for terrorism?

because that's what the terrorists themselves say. stop trying to take credit for their murders. they worked really hard to kill those people.

YesYNot says

sifting through the Koran finding every nugget that inspires violence

lots of nuggests to find! not just a few. please check out:

http://patrick.net/Islam

YesYNot says

It's also true that many people who call themselves Christian don't follow anything close to Christ's teachings. In fact being Christian doesn't seem to confer any tendency toward better behavior: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/misinformation-and-facts-about-secularism-and-religion.

This clearly shows that the positive message put forth by Christ has had no positive impact on Christians. Why do we assume that the violent parts of the Koran are the real reason for terrorism? How do you explain all of the Muslim countries that are peaceful? Turkey is our ally in these wars for "Christ's sake."

I can appreciate what you're saying, but your argument has a glaring omission. You forgot to mention that Christ's teaching was that countless people will TRY to follow him and fail, that they will be hypocritical, that they will not know the Father yet they will claim to be His children. Readers of your argument can see plainly that your argument overlooks this fulfilled prophecy. Moreover, once this fulfilled prophecy is factored into the calculus, we are left with a small remainder of people across history who actually did follow the teachings of Christ. And what did they accomplish for the needy, for science, for human rights, and so forth? Christianity has a very rich history and culture that cannot be so easily dismissed as you attempted in your argument. Indeed, you may have ancestors whom you would love very dearly that were assisted in times of need by faithful Christians. So take a deep breath of history, and a cool intake of fulfilled prophecy, and try to tell me again that Christ had no positive impact on real Christians.

Once you recognize this first error in your argument, you can see plainly the second error in your argument. You said, "Why do we assume that the violent parts of the Koran are the real reason for terrorism?" This link answers your question about 100 times over, with countless quotes directly from the Koran: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Jesus-Muhammad.htm

When a person follows Christ strictly, they live a peaceful and quietly humble life helping people and forgiving people and not doing anything weird like holy wars or slavery. By contrast, if a person follows Muhammed strictly, they enslave, rape, marry children, pillage, behead nonbelievers, etc.

This is why rational people across the globe keep saying, it is dangerous to sugar-coat Islam, because its full manifestation is barbaric.

"Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] '
Allah was a progressive-LOl!!!

Greg Glaser says

When a person follows Christ strictly, they live a peaceful and quietly humble life helping people and forgiving people and not doing anything weird like holy wars or slavery.

Well said. I think it is a pathological form of self-flagellation through decades of indoctrination that has people conditioned to hate their Christian roots and blame the evil of the world on them while striking the far outweighing good things it has brought to humanity out of their memory. And it is the weakest point of the shrinking Judeo-Christian empire/tradition. We should be joining forces with our Russian and European brothers and sisters, instead we vilify them for closing their borders and a long-ended cold war and think everybody else is closer to us then they are.

Greg Glaser says

Once you recognize this first error in your argument, you can see plainly the second error in your argument. You said, "Why do we assume that the violent parts of the Koran are the real reason for terrorism?" This link answers your question about 100 times over, with countless quotes directly from the Koran: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Jesus-Muhammad.htm

Nowhere in the NT or in the Apocrypha or Early Church Doctrine do you find explicit instructions on how to manage a warband raiding to spread Christianity. Whether to attack at night, to attack if there are women and children (ie Collateral Damage, which, according to Koran, okay because disbelievers are filth) around, etc. The Koran and the Suras and the Hadiths, the equivalent documents, go into deep and explicit details.

Why is president Obama lying about who the refugees are? He said that apparently republicans want to deny refugee status to widows and orphans. But the refugees are 75% young adult males.

What is President Obamas agenda in telling this lie?

mell says

Well said. I think it is a pathological form of self-flagellation through decades of indoctrination that has people conditioned to hate their Christian roots and blame the evil of the world on them while striking the far outweighing good things it has brought to humanity out of their memory. And it is the weakest point of the shrinking Judeo-Christian empire/tradition. We should be joining forces with our Russian and European brothers and sisters, instead we vilify them for closing their borders and think everybody else is closer to us then they are.

I think it's important to be quietly introspective especially about the Judeo-aspect of Christianity, because first, the original Judeo texts (i.e., Torah) were lost to time and were rewritten by (Levite) priests centuries later (curiously, with provisions ensuring the Levite priests receive tithes for their sacrifices), so no human really knows what Abraham did or did not do. We do know that Christ was quite critical of the priests of Judaism, and that he set free the sacrificial animals in their cages, and that he did not make a mission of distributing copies of Torah. He didn't write anything, but rather he focused on the heart, and so the mission of Christ was to emphasize that whatever laws you choose to set upon others are set upon you. He summed up the law and the prophets in one sentence, "For whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12.

Regarding Russia and Europe, that is correct that we should be allying not opposing. I especially love how Russian culture promotes organic homestead farming. I would also extend your point though all over the world, including to places like Syria. Remember the parable of the good Samaritan. You can find cool, smart, talented, interesting, beautiful people anywhere, and your neighbor can be in any location on earth. I think that humankind on the whole remains in a very xenophobic and naively immature state divorced from nature, not just among common people who fight and consume against their own self-interest, but also world leaders who play nuclear games and experiment with genetics and biology. It's quite a Roman circus.

I like to ask people, do you love trying to be logical? What about interesting? Moral? Funny? Cool? Talented? Productive? Attractive? Caring? Intelligent? Heroic? Can you honestly say that your life experience is a saga that divine beings (if any) would enjoy contemplating, or are you more like an ‘extra’ playing some limited role for ‘statistical purposes’ in the human story? Sometimes I like to assume for hypothetical purposes that the human story revolves around thousands of key actors experiencing a continuum from glory to hardship in order to measure mankind’s ‘character’ against the medium of a dramatic comedy filled with billions of extras. Here's my article on the point: http://www.logicalhierarchy.com/blog/logic-faith-and-skepticism/

So I expect there are countless heroes and awesome people struggling for meaning and saga in Muslim countries. We share one planet, and technology has shrunk that planet (I buy organic coffee beans from south america, i can telephone australia instantaneously). Why not utilize our economies of scale to help people thrive and succeed and be heroic precisely where they are. I think we have brothers and sisters in Syria too, and Egypt, etc... if they are loved by the Father, what on earth should stop me from doing unto them as I would want done unto me? And even if they are not yet loved by the Father for some reason beyond my knowledge, still, what on earth should stop me from doing unto them as I would want done unto me? Any which way I run the analysis though, I would not want Islam done unto me. And if I were living in Syria, I would not want to ambiguously undermine western culture just so some liberal worldly politicians can succeed in thinking they have somehow promoted humanism by shuffling Middle aged Islamic men around the globe. Indeed, many of these men are somewhat liberal and educated, and so it causes a moderate drain and a brain drain in their native countries when they leave. And here is the data summarized to back this up:
https://www.youtube.com/embed/LPjzfGChGlE

The response to "Thousands of Muslims are joining ISIS, not just from the MENA but 2nd generation Muslims from Europe and large percentages of MENA muslims think ISIS is positive" is not "Uh, Timothy McVeigh was a lapsed/nominal Catholic", but "Oh, this Catholic Terrorist Group that is seizing territory somewhere and drawing thousands of Catholics from around the World"

Where is that happening? Did SSPX seize the area around Avignon, declare Pope Francis an Infidel Anti-Pope, and gave a Popehat to Mel Gibson's Dad, declaring him Pope Gibson the First? While bombing discos in Rome and burning Protestant churches across France? Do polls in Croatia, Austria, Spain, etc. reveal the "True Catholic Army against Vatican 2 Satanism-Communism-Judaism" is viewed "positively" by 20%+ of the population? Are ultraconservative Catholics streaming into Avignon to join from as far away as Boston, Dublin, Santiago, Mexico City and Vietnam?

When that happens, you can say "Aha, ISIS equivalent exists in Europe and it's called the Army of Inquisition against Vatican 2 Reforms!"

thunderlips11 says

Nowhere in the NT or in the Apocrypha or Early Church Doctrine do you find explicit instructions on how to manage a warband raiding to spread Christianity. Whether to attack at night, to attack if there are women and children (ie Collateral Damage, which, according to Koran, okay because disbelievers are filth) around, etc. The Koran and the Suras and the Hadiths, the equivalent documents, go into deep and explicit details.

You are correct. The Koran was written around 600AD, and (humorously) much of it reads like an angry commentary on 6th Century Jewish & Roman Catholic religious practices (which were relatively mainstream then around the Mediterranean and in the Middle East). Parts of the Koran include ridiculously oppressive instructions for subjugating victims, and parts include nitty gritty tactics for guerilla warfare. If the book were written today, it would never be taken seriously. But it was written around 600AD, and it rewarded pillaging, and that is why it became successful (read profitable) among certain Middle Eastern tribal groups. Bottom line -- it spread like wildfire among illiterate and warlike men who profited from pillaging. Scholars have shown that Islam has been enslaved since its outset by its own Islamic brand of Hegelian dialectic. It gives people something to rebel against (i.e., Christianity) and it gives them a community of like-minded people, and that is a recipe for worldly success on earth. But intellectually and spiritually, it never became anything more than a critique of other religions, and the adornment of the false prophet Muhammed slaughtered and pillaged his way to power amongst like-minded men. That does not mean the Muslim people themselves are so limited in their intellectual and spiritual journeys, but rather their religious book was flawed from the outset. Naturally, I would be considered by many Muslims an infidel for saying this, because in their religion free speech does not apply to their religion. And again, this is where historical examples are very helpful to rational people -- history shows that tyrannical societies eliminate fundamental freedoms in order to maintain power. Islam is pretty successful at that, because it teaches that submission is power.

thunderlips11 says

Nowhere in the NT or in the Apocrypha or Early Church Doctrine do you find explicit instructions on how to manage a warband raiding to spread Christianity.

There didn't need to be. The christian bible was written for sucking up to the emperor in order for christianity (actually christian leaders) to get onto the public dole like the pagan religions. This would give them the financing needed to spread throughout the empire. That wasn't an option in the time of Muhammed so conquest and pillage were the preferred methods of financing his religion. Follow the money.

Greg Glaser says

When a person follows Christ strictly, they live a peaceful and quietly humble life helping people and forgiving people and not doing anything weird like holy wars or slavery

Really? Look up herem in the book of samual.

God instructs King Saul to attack the Amalekites: "And utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them," God says through the prophet Samuel. "But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."

Or some of these ditties.

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites ... And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones ... And they burnt all their cities....
And Moses was wroth with the officers ... And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:1-18

And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain: Deuteronomy 2:33-34

So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalm 2:8-9

He teacheth my hands to war. Psalm 18:34

bob2356 says

Really? Look up herem in the book of samual. ...

Not one of your quotes comes from Christ, but rather from miscellaneous Jewish authors.

Did Christ do any of those things you mentioned during his peaceful walk on earth?

Christ often analogized words to food. When you walk through another man's farm, do you eat everything you see, or do you discern first? Christ instructed to test fruit to determine if it comes from a good tree. Matthew 7:16-20. That’s logical. And he also provided a parable of Satan sowing weeds (obstacles) among wheat (useful), and a rationale for why they should grow together for an age. Matthew 13:24-30. Christ never walked around handing out copies of the Old Testament and saying, 'follow this'. Instead, he said, "Follow me".

Again, not once did Christ say the Old Testament was flawless or even historically accurate. He said that whatever you measure will be measured back to you. So, if you want to live by the sword, be prepared to die by the sword. If you want to steal, be prepared to lose. The Creator is just, and ultimately justice will be done.

I think the Creator knows every single 'mistake' and 'addition' in the Old Testament, and each one is there for a reason, as part of the great saga of the Judeo-Christian experience. Indeed, think of all the 'mistakes' of science throughout history that created our unique journey for what we understand today. It's character building.

And a key part of character building is personal accountability. That is why Christians don't allow criminal behavior today from any religious group, whether christian, jewish, muslim, or anything. Christians stand for law and order.

This article rings most true to me:

"While ISIS is, in fact, trying to build an Islamic State and is working to capture and govern territory, its ultimate vision is an apocalyptic one. A strategy that looks self-destructive is, in fact, destructive, but perhaps less baffling than it seems as first glance. As many scholars have noted, ISIS's long-range vision is of an end-of-days battle with the West -- what it calls "Rome." It is the ultimate suicide mission, one that sees the entire world involved in a grand final conflagration."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/18/opinions/ghitis-isis-self-destructive/index.html

bob2356 says

That wasn't an option in the time of Muhammed so conquest and pillage were the preferred methods of financing his religion.

Actually, Mohammed conquered Mecca - after being kicked out for being a nutjob - and sacked it for money. Previously, the powers that be had offered him welfare to tone it down, which he refused.